What Killed My Sandsifting Star?!

[aquariumkeeper1]

Quick tank specs:
55 gallon reef. All parameters always normal. About 2+ years old.

Equipment:
Marineland C-360 canister filter (for up to 100gal aquariums)
T-5 VHO lighting. (about 3.5-4 watts or so per gallon)
2 Maxi-Jet Model 900 (230 gph) w/ rotating heads on wavemaker
Ok skimmer
Necesities (heater, thermometer, etc.)

Livestock:
60lbs live sand (deep sand bed)
65-70lbs live rock
Pair Ocellaris Clowns
Pair Pajama Cardinals
1 Royal Gramma
1 Court Jester Goby
Zoanthis
Green Bulb Anemone
Condy Anemone
Bubble Coral
Duncan Polyps
Pulsing Xenia
Small Acropora
1 Skunk Cleaner Shrimp
Snails: Nassarius, Margarita, Banded Trochus, 1 Turbo
Hermits: Dwarf Yellow-tip, Dwarf Zebra, Scarlet Reef
WAS 2 Sandsifting stars, now 1
and 1 Bristleworm (hitchhiker)

The Stars have been in the tank for about a year now. They seemed very healthy, and a bit fatter than when we purchased them.

They only new thing to the tank is last week we added the Condy Anemone, and I just recently saw a bit of a Bristle Worm. It looks just like the Bristleworm in pb4ugoout thread on page 2 or 3.

From what i've read on other threads, and books and such, they may lose an arm when they starve, but i'm certain it's predation.

Last night the star was fine. Neither of them has EVER lost a leg, and i've never seen anything mess with them. I went to bed, woke up, and went to check on the tank. The star was at the base of my Duncan polyps, and ALL 5 of it's arms had been ripped/nawed off to the body of the star!

What is it? The star was perfectly fine at 9 o clock last night, and now it's arms are all ripped off, and it's dead! We still have 1 more star. Please help me, i'm baffled! Do you think it was one of the fish, or corals, or something, or do you think maybe there's an unseen hitchhiker who's the culprit? Please help!

 

[pagojoe]

That's about how long it takes a starfish to starve to death in a 55. I'm going to go out on a limb and predict starvation, followed by scavenging by your tank residents. If you've read up on them, you probably know that they will deplete the sandbed fauna fairly quickly, then start starving. The LFS may extol their benefits, but most everyone else suggests that the appropriate number of sand-sifting starfish for anything other than a huge tank with a deep sandbed is zero.

Cheers,



Don

 

[plateboy3293]

Lack of food.

 

[serolis7]

starvation! sand stars pork their way through your sand bed eating everything it can eat, and when it runs out of food, it surfaces to disintegrate seemingly overnight. After the sand star has porked through your sand bed, much of the biodiversity you worked hard to cultivate will be gone. To be honest I can't think of anything in your sand bed a sand star won't eat; worms, cucumbers, crustaceans are all fodder for a hungrey sand star. I think your next step should be rehabilitating your broken sand bed with some new live rock/live sand. FYI, stay away from the Horseshoe Crabs as well.

 

[kybreos]

true his tank is too small for a sand sifter let alone two, but give me a break on decimating your sand bed, in my 125 i had a sand sifter for 3+ years he did great kept the sand CLEAN, white and turned. I had still had tons of worms and copepods and amphipods in my tank. In fact you looked from under the stand to the glass on the bottom I saw alot of worms and worm tunnels so back off the urban myth of sand sifting stars "DECIMATING" the sand bed...

 

[Tayler]

i agree it was probably lack of food

 

[Koshmar]

Honestly, I have to agree with kybreos. I think the whole "don't put a sand sifting star in your tank, it will deplete the sandbed!" thing is a myth. The only thing I see my star eat is snail poop and detritus. I'll feed it meaty foods every now and then but I am really doubtful on the notion that they can destroy your microfauna. Just my opinion.

 

[Letmegrow]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14121106#post14121106 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Koshmar
Honestly, I have to agree with kybreos. I think the whole "don't put a sand sifting star in your tank, it will deplete the sandbed!" thing is a myth. The only thing I see my star eat is snail poop and detritus. I'll feed it meaty foods every now and then but I am really doubtful on the notion that they can destroy your microfauna. Just my opinion.

How can you see what your star eats when the mouth is on the underside of the star ??

I am almost certain that gut analysis have been done on this species of star. It wasn't snail poop and detritus found in them, but microorganisms.

The star starved, as do thousands every year, due to people perpetuating that they are not predators, but detritavores.

 

[Letmegrow]

The OP had 2 in a 55g for 1 year.

Kybreos had 1 in a 125g for 3(+) years.

Koshmar has 1 in a 20g for ???

The Stars have been in the tank for about a year now. They seemed very healthy, and a bit fatter than when we purchased them.

I wonder why ??
Because when you got them they were fresh from the sea where they had their natural diet.

Any animal that exerts that much energy to move and hunt will eat protein.

Poop is not a significant source of protein. Unfortunately.

 

[Koshmar]

They climb glass..... Also when you see an animal hover over poop and then hover away and the poop is gone it's safe to assume it ate the poop. I've had a marine biologist and a lfs store owner, who has been into marine aquariums for over twenty years, both tell me the same thing about sand sifters. The only place where I hear people say "sand sifters will deplete your sand bed," is online forums. I guess it's a waste of time debating this on a forum, I won't change anyone's mind and they won't change mine about this subject. I'll just leave it at that.

 

[Letmegrow]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14126444#post14126444 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Koshmar
They climb glass..... Also when you see an animal hover over poop and then hover away and the poop is gone it's safe to assume it ate the poop. I've had a marine biologist and a lfs store owner, who has been into marine aquariums for over twenty years, both tell me the same thing about sand sifters. The only place where I hear people say "sand sifters will deplete your sand bed," is online forums. I guess it's a waste of time debating this on a forum, I won't change anyone's mind and they won't change mine about this subject. I'll just leave it at that.

They climb glass in search of food because there is none left in the sand bed.

The stars should be living decades, not a couple of years.

You are correct it's not worth the time to convince you otherwise.

 

[Letmegrow]

Astropecten polycanthus

From Marine Depot:
Diet: Carnivore.
Feeding: It likes to eat benthic sand crustaceans like spaghetti worms, tube worms, copepods, amphipods and other sandbed infauna.
General notes: Sand Sifting Sea Stars are great for fish only systems or reefs that do not operate using the deep sandbed method. It is reportedly a detrivore but does not eat detritus. It does, however, keep the sand mixed which is why it is a great addition for shallow sandbeds. Like sand sifting fish, the Sand Sifting Sea Star will sift through the substrate looking to eat the benthic invertebrates that live there. One Sand Sifting Sea Star can void a 5 inch sandbed in an 80 gallon system of living sandbed matter in just a few weeks. It will then proceed to stay hidden in the sand, starve to death and decay. Be sure to add this species to a well established tank with a lot of benthic invertebrates in the sand. Most Invertebrates, ESPECIALLY Seastars require very long and slow drip acclimation process of at least 2 hours or more as they cannot adjust quickly to even small changes in pH, temperature, and alkalinity. Like all invertebrates, this species is intolerant of extreme nitrate levels (over 20) and cannot live in tanks that have had copper-based medications dispensed. Due to the sensitive nature of this animals stringent acclimation requirements and sensitivity to being properly acclimated, it is on the Restricted Species List.

Live Aquaria
This peaceful omnivore will effectively clean even the largest home aquarium of detritus and left over food. Like other starfish, the Sand Sifting Sea Star will also consume small invertebrates, including shrimp, urchins, mollusks, bivalves, or other small sea stars. As such, the Sand Sifting Sea Star should be actively fed a varied diet consisting of natural food sources, especially in well-established marine aquariums. Otherwise, this voracious feeder will quickly clean your aquarium of detritus and then burrow into your substrate, starve, and eventually begin to decay.

About.com
Reef Tank Safe:
No, as they eat all edible life on and in the aquarium sand bed.
Diet & Feeding:
In the wild, this Starfish eats Brittle Starfish, Worms, Snails, Sea Cucumbers and smaller organisms. It an aquarium, they should be fed meaty foods.
Characteristics & Compatibility:
This Sea Star moves across the sediment surface, devouring everything edible, then submerges into the substrate, eating everything it comes across. Once it runs out of food, it will starve to death, unless its diet is supplemented.

 

[greenbean36191]

Sand sifting stars in the hobby are comprised of at least 2 genera and numerous species within those genera. The diets of several members of both genera are well studied. All are predators of sandbed infauna.

At one extreme are species that are so broadly general in their diets that gut analysis of them has been used as a method of bottom sampling. These species would be the most destructive in a tank, but would fare the best because they would likely even take meaty food offered to them.

On the other end of the spectrum are species that specialize in certain microscopic worms and mollusks. You would never notice the damage they would cause to a sandbed, but they would be the hardest to keep fed because they are so picky.

When other food is scarce, some species do switch to detritus, but it is not a preferred or long-term food item.

 

[Letmegrow]

Thank you Greenbean.

 

[Koshmar]

I'm glad that people are posting information. That's great and all but I would like to see the sources. I think it's important to note that not everything that is online should be considered as true. About.com, MarineDepot, and Live Aquaria may be fine places to buy animals and supplies but they don't seem to be quality sources for species information. I'm not trying to put down anyone's attempts to provide information but I would like to see primary sources, first hand accounts, or otherwise scientific reports on this subject.
My experience with the sand sifter in my 20 gallon has been posititive. I have tons of copepods, amphipods, and worms in the sand bed and on/in my rockwork. I have had my star for over three months. It has taken everything from pieces of silversides to mysis. I've seen it attempt to eat a dying snail before. If indeed this star preys on microfauna in the sandbed it has not impacted my tank. My phosphates, nitrates, ammonia, you name it are 0. I have never seen it lose any appendage. Again this is my experience. A first hand account.
One aspect of this topic which interests me is that there are many species of "sand sifting stars". Their diets may diverge in contents. It could be possible that what people say is a sand sifter may be a different one than the one I have. I'll try to post a pic sometime later, (can't find my camera).
I would like this to be a healthy discussion with no flamming or rude remarks. I'm presenting a different opinion which seems to be contrary to the norm on this forum. My discussion is not to pursuade others to buy a sand sifter, I just want to create a discussion on this subject for people to relate to.

 

[greenbean36191]

de Juan, S., J.E. Cartes, and M. Demestre. (2007) Effects of commercial trawling activities in the diet of the flat fish Citharus linguatula (Osteichthyes: Pleuronectiformes) and the starfish Astropecten irregularis (Echinodermata: Asteroidea). J. Exp. Mar. Biol. Ecol. 349: 152-169.

90% of the gut content of the sand sifting stars was comprised of 3 species of mollusks though it included more than 25 different species of infauna

"The starfish A. irregularis mainly preyed upon infaunal molluscs, which confirmed previous studies on this species (Christensen, 1970; Franz andWorley, 1982; Beddingfield and McClintock, 1993)....Some authors reported that annelids and crustaceans were usually avoided by this species, and carrion only constituted a small proportion of its diet (Christensen, 1970; Beddingfield and McClintock, 1993)."


Wells, H.W., M.J. Wells, and I.E. Gray. (1961) Food of the sea-star Astropecten articulatus. Biol. Bull. 120: 265.

"Most members of this widespread genus [Astropecten] live more or less buried in sandy bottoms, where they ingest large numbers of sand-dwelling animals. Eichelbaum (1910) and Kisch (1958) have reported on the food of Astropecten irregularis from northwestern Europe, Hamann (1889) recorded the food of A. auranciacus from the Mediterranean, and Caracelles and Parodiz (1938 ) reported on molluscs recovered from the stomach of A. cingulatus from the Argentine coast. A large portion of the food of these species consists of shelled molluscs."

"Astropecten articulatus is indeed a voracious predator on the inhabitants of the sand bottom community... A total of 91 species was represented in the stomachs examined. This aggregate contains two ectoproct bryozoans, two polychaete annelids, eleven arthropods, three echinoderms, fifty-two gastropods, four scaphopods, and seventeen pelecypods."

Small gastropods made up about 60% of the ingested animals by number, but crustaceans were roughly equal by mass.

"From all indications, Astropecten articulatus appears to be a non-selective feeder, its stomach contents reflecting the faunal composition of the offshore sand bottoms frequented by it. Indeed, this species can serve the marine biologist as a convenient tool for the study of bottom fauna, as a dredge which samples indiscriminately the abundant minute animals that live in sand.
This generalization evidently applies equally well to other species of Astropecten that inhabit sand."


Ganmanee, M., et al. (2003). Feeding habits of asteroids, Luidia quinaria and Astropecten scoparius, in Ise Bay, Central Japan. Fish. Sci. 69: 1121-1134.

"As reviewed by Jangoux, studies on the feeding biology of primitive asteroids such as Luidia and Astropecten species have often been done during the last three decades because it is easy to examine their stomach contents due to their intraoral feeding. Both the Luidia and Astropecten species are typically carnivores/ predators, but the former prefers to ingest large epifaunal benthos such as echinoderms while the latter prefers to ingest infaunal benthos such as small gastropods and bivalves."

The diet of Luidia was 60% mini brittle stars, 12% gastropods, 12% crustaceans, and the rest being made up of various worms, fish bits, pieces of other sand sifting stars, and unidentifiable junk.

The diet of Astropecten was 64% gastropods, 33% bivalves, and the rest mostly crustaceans.


McClintock, J.B. and J.M. Lawrence. (1985) Characteristics of foraging in the soft-bottom benthic starfish Luidia clathrata (echinodermata: Asteroidea): prey selectivity, switching behavior, functional responses and movement patterns. Oecologia 66: 291-198.

"Luidia clathrata show a strong preference for the infaunal bivalve Mulinia lateralis in Tampa Bay, Florida.... Individuals may shift from intraoral macrofaunal feeding to intra- and extraoral detrital feeding during periods of low macrofaunal availability."

McClintock has done numerous other feeding experiments with Luidia too, but I'm too lazy to actually go get hard copies from the library.


Lemmens, J.W.T.J, P.W. Arnold, and R.A. Birtles. (1995) Distribution Patterns and Selective Feeding in Two Astropecten Species (Asteroidea: Echinodermata) from Cleveland Bay, Northern Queensland. Mar. Freshwater. Res. 46: 447-455.

"Astropectinid sea stars are specialized soft-sediment carnivores that may have significant effects on the densities of their infaunal prey (Christensen 1970)."

A. zebra's diet was 87% mollusks and 10% crustaceans. The rest was worms, foraminiferans, and unidentifiable stuff.

The diet of A. velitaris was about 75% mollusks, 17% crustaceans, 4% foraminiferans. Where mollusks were scarcer, a higher percentage of the diet (30%) was crustaceans.

"Crustaceans were proportionately better represented in the stomach contents of A. velitaris than in bottom samples."

Between the two species 140 species of prey were identified. Average prey size was 1-1.5 mm and maxed out at 5 mm. There was a strong preference in both species for smaller prey.

 

[greenbean36191]

Ahh, double post.

 

[LobsterMan]

I have to agree with everyone else starvation.

 

[pagojoe]

Thanks for digging that up Mike. I'll just bookmark this thread and refer the next 100 "why did my starfish die" thread starters to it.

Cheers,



Don

 

[Koshmar]

Outstanding! That's just what I wanted to see. Nice job greenbean. Truely. Makes me think twice about my star. One other question I would like to pose is the species that is the most commonly sold in the trade. Are a handful sold or is it a broad spectrum of different species?

Ganmanee, M., et al. (2003). Feeding habits of asteroids, Luidia quinaria and Astropecten scoparius, in Ise Bay, Central Japan. Fish. Sci. 69: 1121-1134.
"Both the Luidia and Astropecten species are typically carnivores/ predators, but the former prefers to ingest large epifaunal benthos such as echinoderms while the latter prefers to ingest infaunal benthos such as small gastropods and bivalves."

Could this suggest that through supplemental feedings a sand sifter would be sustainable in a home aquarium? The one I have readily accepts meaty food items. Through regular feedings I would assume that the star would prove just as hardy as other inverts. Comments on this assumption?