What rare angel is the least owned?

[coralite]

Well since we're all gonna geek out on the ecology of fish I thought I would throw in my take on it.

Enzymes are one of the most crucial component to regulating metabolic functions. All animals have enzymes which are designed to operate at a specific temperature. Warm blooded animals maintain temp so their enzymes operate within a narrow range of temps. Conversely, cold blooded animals can produce enzymes which not only operate at a wider range of temps (isozymes) but they usually produce a suite of isozymes which have overlapping temperature ranges.

The ability to produce the suite of isozymes is more pronounced in juveniles so that they can acclimate to the environment where they find themselves. As that juvenile matures, it's environment will regulate which type of isozyme will be produced for proper metabolic regulation. The ability to produce other isozymes will be reduced with age. Barring any type of selective breeding, this enzyme selection is what allows for juvenile cold blooded creatures to acclimate to temperatures which are not ideal. That being said, 'outlier' enzymes which operate at lower or higher than ideal temp have some kind of cost trade-off associated with their production. An animal living in temps on the edges of the bell curve will have to devote more energy to producing the expensive enzyme and as a result, it might not grow as large, it may not live as long, it may not be as fecund etc. In the end all organisms follow their biological path of least resistance.

 

[triggerfish1976]

Based on personal observation and experience there seem to be numerous fish currently avail. in this hobby that are being collected from deeper water that are adapting to reef tank temperatures. Interruptus was just one example of a species that generally doesn't and I can attest to wild caught specimans adpating poorly to the typical reef tank. I obtained a large pair a few years ago and they did poorly for the first week but once I lowered the temperature they thrived. CB specimans on the other hand are easily being kept in shallow reef setups in the 78-80 degree range.
I have also kept many of the deeper water Genicanthus Angels and they also react poorly when introduced into a higher temp. reef tank but generally adapt if you lower the temp. upon introduction and then slowly raise it back up over the course of a few months.

 

[jmaneyapanda]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11334531#post11334531 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by triggerfish1976
Based on personal observation and experience there seem to be numerous fish currently avail. in this hobby that are being collected from deeper water that are adapting to reef tank temperatures. Interruptus was just one example of a species that generally doesn't and I can attest to wild caught specimans adpating poorly to the typical reef tank. I obtained a large pair a few years ago and they did poorly for the first week but once I lowered the temperature they thrived. CB specimans on the other hand are easily being kept in shallow reef setups in the 78-80 degree range.
I have also kept many of the deeper water Genicanthus Angels and they also react poorly when introduced into a higher temp. reef tank but generally adapt if you lower the temp. upon introduction and then slowly raise it back up over the course of a few months.

I think we will just ahve to respectfully agree to disagree. I cannot fathom how such fish can biologically adjuxt to conditions which they have evolved out of without negative impacts. Whiel I certainly do not doubt any of your claims, I must insist there is a degree of tradeoff where the individual loses some advantage. As coralite mentioned, perhaps in fecundity, lifespan, immunities, etc.

We need to understand that there is ridiculous little known about many of these fishes biological capacities. For example, I can read constantly how copper based meds will destroy a tangs gut flora and fauna and kill them. But I have yet to see ANY bioassay of a marine ornamental's gut. We really have no idea what makes many of these organisms tick and why. Do deepwater species *need* cold water, high pressure, darker conditions, specific food items, or none of the above, to thrive?
Yet, we all have the ability to follow the ultimate trial-and-error experimentor- Mother Nature that is. These animals have selcted to live at the conditions they are in, and we are foolish to attempt to change that in a mere few generations.

 

[triggerfish1976]

jmaneyapanda,

I understand what you're saying but at the same time pretty much every animal that we keep in our aquariums is having to apapt to a captive environment since we cannot even come close to duplicating their natural environement regardless of what most of us think. The unfortunate aspect of being in this hobby is we are "forcing" fish, corals, and inverts to have to adjust to living in a much more controllered habitat that meet our needs moreso than theirs in order to be able to keep them for our amusement and curiosity. Most fish collected for our trade never even come close to living as long as they do in the wild due to improper husbandry and the ones that are taken care of properly still only live for a fraction of their wild counterparts lives.

 

[jmaneyapanda]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11335083#post11335083 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by triggerfish1976
jmaneyapanda,

I understand what you're saying but at the same time pretty much every animal that we keep in our aquariums is having to apapt to a captive environment since we cannot even come close to duplicating their natural environement regardless of what most of us think. The unfortunate aspect of being in this hobby is we are "forcing" fish, corals, and inverts to have to adjust to living in a much more controllered habitat that meet our needs moreso than theirs in order to be able to keep them for our amusement and curiosity. Most fish collected for our trade never even come close to living as long as they do in the wild due to improper husbandry and the ones that are taken care of properly still only live for a fraction of their wild counterparts lives.

Yes, but we are talking about 2 entirely different things. Adaptation does occur ferquently and readily. Adaptation is the wild fish coming and living for years in our aquarium, eating the food we provide, maybe even breeding in our tanks. But, if we are saying that, as a blanket statement, wild caught individuals cannot adapt to condition X, while captive bred ones can, then this is totally different. You are assigning some cumulative advantage to the second group, based on the fact that they are captive bred. Whether it be they can tolerate higher temps, or eat different diets, or whatever. This type of significant adaptation of the biological process cannot happen in the short term. This is my only point. As it relates to this discussion, we cannot state that wild caught interruptus (or hotumatuas, debelius, etc) cannot tolerate our temps of 80 degress, but captive berds miraculously have adapted the ability to do so.

 

[triggerfish1976]

One thing to consider with this debate is the dietary and habitat shifts that many fish go through from Juvenile to Adult that may come into play regarding WC and CB specimans.
Many large Angelfish like Bandits, Personifers, etc. become predominate spong eaters when they reach adulthood and that is why they adapt poorly to aquarium life when collected larger than a few inches but their diet is completely different when they are young and they can weened on meeting foods and algae that is void of sponge and grow to be happy and healthy fish in an aquarium. Some can also be found in shallower more tropical sections of the reef when they are young and eventually migrate deeper for various reasons.
What I am getting at is maybe the CB part is not the key but the fact that they are able to adapt to different temps. and diets because they are being raised at a much younger age and do not have to resort to living in deeper water in order to breed, avoid predation, or food.
What I just said might be far fetched but it was worth a try.:lol:

 

[coralite]

I love how we're having a discussion/debate about water temp acclimation/adaptation and I interject the single determining biological factor which determines a species' environmental temperature and we just keep on debating with pseudoscience. Nice :rolleye1:

 

[triggerfish1976]

You're right. I missed your original thread.

 

[jmaneyapanda]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11336096#post11336096 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by coralite
I love how we're having a discussion/debate about water temp acclimation/adaptation and I interject the single determining biological factor which determines a species' environmental temperature and we just keep on debating with pseudoscience. Nice :rolleye1:

Not to be argumentative, but I completely disgaree with this statement. I think it is a rather abrupt and shortsighted statment that the "single determining biological factor" for species environmental temperature is enzymes. There are FAR more issues than this. This may be correct in metabolic, or physiological terms, but environmentally and ecologically, I think there are considerably more issues to address.

Please dont take this comment as an attack, I do not intend it to be so.

 

[coralite]

The mechanism for physiological adaptation to temperature is enzymatic. Of course when you look at a whole ecosystem there dozens of major factors at play. But for the sake of acclimating fish to higher temps enzymes are governing the process. Over seasonal scales of temperature change, cold blooded animals shift their production of enzymes to suit the changing temperature and the new suite of enzymes allows them to carry out their metabolism at an ideal level. This is absolutely not the case with warm blooded animals who maintain a narrow range of body temperatures.

 

[jmaneyapanda]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11337146#post11337146 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by coralite
The mechanism for physiological adaptation to temperature is enzymatic. Of course when you look at a whole ecosystem there dozens of major factors at play. But for the sake of acclimating fish to higher temps enzymes are governing the process. Over seasonal scales of temperature change, cold blooded animals shift their production of enzymes to suit the changing temperature and the new suite of enzymes allows them to carry out their metabolism at an ideal level. This is absolutely not the case with warm blooded animals who maintain a narrow range of body temperatures.

Yes, I agree with this completely for a discription of physiological temperature adaptation within individual fish. My point is there is much more to be considered when thinking of the species as a whole. For example, how do we explain the tremendous variation in depth and temperature certain species of fish can be found naturally? One individual may be found near the surface at warmer temps, while another individual of the same species at a greater depth, and consequently a lesser temperature.
Another important point to consider is the ability of different species to create the different enzyme suites. There is not an infinite number of enzyme suites that can function over a huge spectrum of temperature that every species of fish can create. There are absolute limitations between each different species as to what enzyme can be produced to offer functionality at certain temps. For example, certain species of aquarium fish absolutely do not thrive at typical aquarium water temperatures, likely because they cannot create the necessary enzymes and other metabolites necessary for survival at 80 degrees F. Yet, species within the same genus can.
Overall, I think we are likely saying the same thing, but perhaps just focusing on seperate "hotpoints".

 

[zemuron114]

IME deep water fish do not like high temps, and long term they will not survive. Whatever the cause may be, it is a certainty that they will die in high temps...

 

[SDguy]

I saw an angel at the Aquarium Of The Pacific in Long Beach yesterday. I thought correctly it might be a clipperton angel. Neat!

Sorry for the horrid pics....point and shoot camera + kids hands ALL OVER the CURVED viewing glass = crap pics

 

[Emoezekielsr5]

 

[SDguy]

Thanks Nick! Much better!!

 

[ccampbell57]

OMG!!!! A clipperton! That is awesome!

 

[myerst2]

WOW!!! Was this for sale? How much and how on earth did they get that fish????!!!!! More info. please!!!!!! I haven't seen a Clipperton in 14 years plus. Tim

 

[jmaneyapanda]

Tim, the clip is at a public aquarium, not for sale.

 

[jmaneyapanda]

Tim, the clip is at a public aquarium, not for sale.

 

[gasman059]

great fish!

great fish!

Holacanthus limbaughi
I saved this pic since i liked it.

[/IMG]