What would you do with this sump?

[FortuneFavours]

Hi all

So I wanted to get your thoughts and ideas on my sump plans for my first reef tank (300G). I bought this from someone else - so, apart from the obvious 'clean it' suggestion, what would you do with it?


The sump is 48" x 20"w x 18"H:




SECTION 1
The flow will be from left to right in the picture above and the tank will drain via 2 x 40mm pipes into this section first:



I'll make a new lid for this section, and it looks like some filter sponges could go here, layered from large to fine?


SECTION 2
The next section is fairly large, so I was thinking about putting the protein skimmer and any other reactors (that fit) in here:




SECTION 3
This section seems to have some baffles along the bottom:





Because I want to have an open(ish) tank with some negative space, I won't be using as much rock as others might and so I was thinking of putting two Marine Pure blocks in this space. I remember reading somewhere that they should be in low flow areas for best performance and I'm thinking the baffles along the bottom will aid better flow all round?

I was also thinking of having a box for chaeto.


SECTION 4
There appears to be a refugium of some sort that drains into the final section? For copepods maybe? It has a big slot at the bottom (accounting for a third of the bottom pane of glass) to allow the water, and presumably whatever you're growing, to feed into the return area:





SECTION 5
The final section is for the return pump. Can't think of anything else to do here!



Would be grateful for all your thoughts and ideas. :thumbsup:

 

[JammyBirch]

First thing I would do is throw the bio balls away and never use them again. My idea of a sump, especially that big, is to run a refugium. Drain from DT to the inlet side of the sump, where the skimmer would be, build a baffle and bubble trap. The next part is you refugium, and as big as this thing is it could be a display as well. Use the existing baffle to build another bubble trap and to set your pump chamber height, it's important to set the height correctly.

The baffle bubble trap on the skimmer side will need to be set at the recommended height for the skimmer.

The pump chamber size is critical for dealing with a clogged drain pipe scenario. Your pump chamber should be made less than the head space from your DT drain height to the top of the DT tank minus 10%. This way it is impossible for you to overflow the tank.

The second catastrophic failure scenario is a power failure. The sump tank head space needs to be able to hold the water below the drains in the DT plus 10%. Again impossible to overflow the sump.

No water on the floor is job 1... I have no idea if this makes any sense to you at all...that sump is awesome and this is what I would do. I'm a beginner at fish and not very good at chemistry but I can design and build like a pro...I hope this helps and gave you some ideas.

 

[FortuneFavours]

I have no idea if this makes any sense to you at all...

Er.......

First thing I would do is throw the bio balls away and never use them again.

I didn't even realise that those were bio balls - I've only ever seen the spherical ones!

My idea of a sump, especially that big, is to run a refugium. Drain from DT to the inlet side of the sump, where the skimmer would be, build a baffle and bubble trap.

Are you suggesting that this section should be smaller than it currently is, so there is space for a larger refugium?

The next part is you refugium, and as big as this thing is it could be a display as well.

I totally didn't get this (sorry!). What's a display refugium? Why would you put a refugium on display, isn't it going to be messy and ugly? What would go in it? Also, aren't the steel stand legs going to get in the way of the 'display' (or are you suggesting having the sump somewhere else)?

Use the existing baffle to build another bubble trap and to set your pump chamber height, it's important to set the height correctly.

The baffle bubble trap on the skimmer side will need to be set at the recommended height for the skimmer.

The pump chamber size is critical for dealing with a clogged drain pipe scenario. Your pump chamber should be made less than the head space from your DT drain height to the top of the DT tank minus 10%. This way it is impossible for you to overflow the tank.

The second catastrophic failure scenario is a power failure. The sump tank head space needs to be able to hold the water below the drains in the DT plus 10%. Again impossible to overflow the sump.

How do you calculate how much space you need? What's "head space"?
What about the 'Herbie' method, does that help reduce the chance of overflow?


Apologies for all the questions!

 

[thegrun]

I would cut out all the existing baffles and start from scratch rather than trying to modify what is there.

 

[RocketEngineer]

Looking at the pictures, I would say that is very old school.

Section one appears to be holders for a pair of filter socks. There are certain ones that have a rectangular shape vs the typical round ones. I can't help you with these as I don't run them. I recommend against filter pads unless you clean them very frequently.

Section two would be where I would place my skimmer. It is the most logical place for it.

After that, I would just make the rest of the sump return volume. On a tank that size you want the return section to be fairly large to accommodate evaporation. I would pull out the glass on the bottom and the upper half of the split baffle. I would also remove the tall piece that makes up the side of section 5. From these two pieces, I would cut square edges and make a bubble trap with the existing lower half of the split baffle.

JammyBirch, the concept of a "refugium" has become too broad a term to be useful. I would determine what you are trying to use that space for and then concentrate on that one aspect. In my setup my "refugium" is a macro-algae growing section. It is well lit and has several different types of algae in it that grow at different rates all of which I prune on a regular basis. There is some LR in the section but that's because the algae came on those rocks and it continues to grow on those rocks. No sand, not a pod production area, just algae.

FortuneFavours,
There are a bunch of different shapes, they all do the same thing which is provide surface area for bacteria. All are to be avoided.

What JammyBirch is referring to with head space is the volume left in the sump when no water is flowing. After the return pump is off, you want about 1" worth of extra space in the top of the sump before it would overflow. The best way to achieve this is to fill the tank until it just barely starts draining out of the overflows, then fill the sump until there is 1" left, and then turn on everything and mark where the water level in the sump stabilizes at. That mark is very helpful for topping off and allows you to set an ATO to the proper level.

The Herbie drains don't change whether the sump will overflow or not. This method is used to increase the flow through the drain pipes therefore allowing a higher turnover. By using both holes that typically come with a Reef Ready overflow box as drains, the smaller one is run in a full siphon mode while the other is kept dry. Running a drain line without air allows for maximum flow with minimal noise.

HTH,

 

[FortuneFavours]

I would cut out all the existing baffles and start from scratch rather than trying to modify what is there.

Oh dear! Removing the glass weirs and shelves that were in the DT was such a pain!!! I hope they've just siliconed around the the baffles and not put silicone in between the baffle and the sump glass - I really struggled with some sections in the DT because there was almost no space between the display glass and the other bits stuck to it. In the end, I had to use the guitar string from my daughter's cheap toy guitar and a fine wallpaper scraper. Not happy memories....

Looking at the pictures, I would say that is very old school.

Tank is only 2 years old, so probably a very old school sump designer!

Section one appears to be holders for a pair of filter socks. There are certain ones that have a rectangular shape vs the typical round ones. I can't help you with these as I don't run them. I recommend against filter pads unless you clean them very frequently.

Filter socks it is! I will take this section out or tweak it so that it can accommodate round filter socks.

Section two would be where I would place my skimmer. It is the most logical place for it.

After that, I would just make the rest of the sump return volume. On a tank that size you want the return section to be fairly large to accommodate evaporation.

I was going to cover both the tank and the sump. Would evaporation still be a big concern? Are DSB's a bad idea? I did want some type of refugium for amphipods, copepods, etc. as I really like the Mandarin fish and would love to eventually keep one. Also, chaeto seems to be pretty popular?

There are a bunch of different shapes, they all do the same thing which is provide surface area for bacteria. All are to be avoided.

Just out of curiosity, can I ask why bio balls are a bad thing in a reef tank?

What JammyBirch is referring to with head space is the volume left in the sump when no water is flowing. After the return pump is off, you want about 1" worth of extra space in the top of the sump before it would overflow. The best way to achieve this is to fill the tank until it just barely starts draining out of the overflows, then fill the sump until there is 1" left, and then turn on everything and mark where the water level in the sump stabilizes at. That mark is very helpful for topping off and allows you to set an ATO to the proper level.

The Herbie drains don't change whether the sump will overflow or not. This method is used to increase the flow through the drain pipes therefore allowing a higher turnover. By using both holes that typically come with a Reef Ready overflow box as drains, the smaller one is run in a full siphon mode while the other is kept dry. Running a drain line without air allows for maximum flow with minimal noise.

I think I might have asked some questions related to the above in this thread I just started. Would you mind having a look if you have the time?

Thank you all for the support by the way, it is very much appreciated!

 

[RocketEngineer]

Oh dear! Removing the glass weirs and shelves that were in the DT was such a pain!!! I hope they've just siliconed around the the baffles and not put silicone in between the baffle and the sump glass - I really struggled with some sections in the DT because there was almost no space between the display glass and the other bits stuck to it. In the end, I had to use the guitar string from my daughter's cheap toy guitar and a fine wallpaper scraper. Not happy memories....

The guitar wire around a couple pieces of wood dowel is the best way to cut through silicone in a tight space.

I was going to cover both the tank and the sump. Would evaporation still be a big concern? Are DSB's a bad idea? I did want some type of refugium for amphipods, copepods, etc. as I really like the Mandarin fish and would love to eventually keep one. Also, chaeto seems to be pretty popular?

What I meant was any evaopration was going to show in the return section. A large return section allows for a higher volume of evaporation to occur before the return pump sucks air and runs dry.

You are discussing three distinct uses for a refugium. What you don't want to do is try to do all three in the exact same volume. Multi-purpose is never as good as single purpose because compromises were made. If you want to produce pods for the tank, research how to produce pods. If you want to grow chaeto, set up a section with no sand or rock and high lighting just for that purpose.

With regards to DSB, I employ Anthony Calfo's method. I have a 5g bucket filled with about 60lbs of fine calcium based sand. I flow about 300gph across the very surface of the sand so that no detritus build up but just below what it would take to stir up the sand. The bucket is fully closed and kept in the dark. The idea is to have a remote DSB with the singular purpose of reducing nitrates. No algae, no critters, just sand and bacteria. By being in a 5g bucket, it is easy to remove should it cause problems with the system.

Just out of curiosity, can I ask why bio balls are a bad thing in a reef tank?

Bio-balls are only able to reduce ammonia to nitrate and no further. As described above, a RDSB in a 5g bucket can do the same thing as well as reduce the nitrates. Because nitrates can be a problem in a reef system, I would choose the method that entirely removes the nitrates from the system over a freshwater method that stops half way through the process.

I think I might have asked some questions related to the above in this thread I just started. Would you mind having a look if you have the time?

Think of this as the sump thread. I answered the plumbing question in that thread.

 

[FortuneFavours]

The guitar wire around a couple pieces of wood dowel is the best way to cut through silicone in a tight space.



What I meant was any evaopration was going to show in the return section. A large return section allows for a higher volume of evaporation to occur before the return pump sucks air and runs dry.

You are discussing three distinct uses for a refugium. What you don't want to do is try to do all three in the exact same volume. Multi-purpose is never as good as single purpose because compromises were made. If you want to produce pods for the tank, research how to produce pods. If you want to grow chaeto, set up a section with no sand or rock and high lighting just for that purpose.

With regards to DSB, I employ Anthony Calfo's method. I have a 5g bucket filled with about 60lbs of fine calcium based sand. I flow about 300gph across the very surface of the sand so that no detritus build up but just below what it would take to stir up the sand. The bucket is fully closed and kept in the dark. The idea is to have a remote DSB with the singular purpose of reducing nitrates. No algae, no critters, just sand and bacteria. By being in a 5g bucket, it is easy to remove should it cause problems with the system.




Bio-balls are only able to reduce ammonia to nitrate and no further. As described above, a RDSB in a 5g bucket can do the same thing as well as reduce the nitrates. Because nitrates can be a problem in a reef system, I would choose the method that entirely removes the nitrates from the system over a freshwater method that stops half way through the process.



Think of this as the sump thread. I answered the plumbing question in that thread.

That is really helpful - thank you! Lots for me to research and mull over.

 

[wooden_reefer]

First thing I would do is throw the bio balls away and never use them again. My idea of a sump, especially that big, is to run a refugium. Drain from DT to the inlet side of the sump, where the skimmer would be, build a baffle and bubble trap. The next part is you refugium, and as big as this thing is it could be a display as well. Use the existing baffle to build another bubble trap and to set your pump chamber height, it's important to set the height correctly.

The baffle bubble trap on the skimmer side will need to be set at the recommended height for the skimmer.

The pump chamber size is critical for dealing with a clogged drain pipe scenario. Your pump chamber should be made less than the head space from your DT drain height to the top of the DT tank minus 10%. This way it is impossible for you to overflow the tank.

The second catastrophic failure scenario is a power failure. The sump tank head space needs to be able to hold the water below the drains in the DT plus 10%. Again impossible to overflow the sump.

No water on the floor is job 1... I have no idea if this makes any sense to you at all...that sump is awesome and this is what I would do. I'm a beginner at fish and not very good at chemistry but I can design and build like a pro...I hope this helps and gave you some ideas.

Bioballs are very good during QT of fish.

It is a good non-calcerous medium for nitrification, better than sponges.

Definitely do not discard.

There are alternatives so I won't buy bioballs, but now you have it don't discard.

 

[FortuneFavours]

Is it a bad idea to T off the main drain in order to run reactors (in future)?

I don't really want to do it off the return line as I've read that, over time, it affects the flow balance between the drain/return (as media in the reactors wears down) which results in the water level in the overflow not being stable. Would the same thing happen if the reactors were fed from the drain? I'm assuming it won't make a difference as all the water from the drain would end up in the sump anyway?

T-ing off the drain to reactors would obviously mean that the water that goes to the reactors would not have passed through the mechanical filtration (filter socks) first...

 

[RocketEngineer]

Yes it is a problem. There should be no restrictions in the drains because if a fish or snail decided to go through the pipe it would get stuck at the partially closed valve and the tank would flood. Also, most reactors need more pressure to fluidize the media than a gravity fed drain can provide.

I'm not sure why you think feeding off the return will impact the overflow level. That should be set by the height of the stand pipes. If you have so much flow that the media is being broken down into smaller pieces, you have too much flow through that reactor.

 

[FortuneFavours]

Yes it is a problem. There should be no restrictions in the drains because if a fish or snail decided to go through the pipe it would get stuck at the partially closed valve and the tank would flood. Also, most reactors need more pressure to fluidize the media than a gravity fed drain can provide.

But doesn't the Herbie drain have a restriction anyway, as you have to use a gate/ball valve? If the pressure is going to be a problem, then it might have to be a tee off the return, but...

I'm not sure why you think feeding off the return will impact the overflow level. That should be set by the height of the stand pipes. If you have so much flow that the media is being broken down into smaller pieces, you have too much flow through that reactor.

I read it in this article:

"To avoid having to constantly readjust the siphon valve, the return rate should be kept at a consistent rate. Any fluctuations that would take place from day-to-day should be minimized.

A common practice is to to Tee off the line above the pump to feed a Refugium sump chamber, and this is generally okay to do.

If you are going to Tee the return line, the offshoot should only direct to a place providing consistent resistance.

Some people will add a manifold of valves to direct flow to media reactors. This can be less than ideal with a siphon-based overflow method.

If the return pump is Tee'd off and also feeding a media reactor in the sump, then variations in water flow will start to happen. Water resistance inside the reactor will slowly change as the media becomes depleted or dirty. This in turn changes the rate of flow pushed up to the display, and at the overflow as well."

 

[RocketEngineer]

While I understand the physics they are trying to describe, I don't agree with the conclusion.

If you have reactors on the drains, they will have the same impact on the drain line as they would on the return line which is gradual changes with time. The ideal situation is to run the drains and returns INDEPENDENT of the reactors. A separate pump that runs all the reactors and supplies the refugium would be the best situation.

I also disagree with feeding a refugium from a drain line as it leads to detritus buildup which can cause problems long term.

Just because something is "common practice" doesn't make it "best practice".

 

[FortuneFavours]

While I understand the physics they are trying to describe, I don't agree with the conclusion.

If you have reactors on the drains, they will have the same impact on the drain line as they would on the return line which is gradual changes with time. The ideal situation is to run the drains and returns INDEPENDENT of the reactors. A separate pump that runs all the reactors and supplies the refugium would be the best situation.

I also disagree with feeding a refugium from a drain line as it leads to detritus buildup which can cause problems long term.

Just because something is "common practice" doesn't make it "best practice".

I was hoping to avoid having another electricity sucking pump if I could help it. I found this thread about people running things from their return line - it sounds like a much better idea and I think I'll give it a try. If it causes too many problems, I'll just take that section out of the return plumbing and add a dedicated pump as you've suggested. Worth a try I suppose!

 

[RocketEngineer]

In my setup I run the GFO and supply my refugium off my return pump. I supply the skimmer with a dedicated pump (recirculating type skimmer) because its pulling from the drain section and my RDSB gets its own pump because if I need to remove it I don't want to rework the rest of my plumbing.