Whats going on!!

[Zacktosterone]

I have the following in quarantine

4 clowns
10 Chromis
1 small face
1 small flame hawk

These fish came from a 7 hour drive. They were all super healthy at the store but all seemed lethargic as soon as I got home. I put them all in a huge bath a
Of safety stop (45 minute bath in an airated malikite green bath in New salt water. 45 minute bath in methalin blue. Of course they were acclimated for two hours before getting baths. I did the cup method. "Should have dripped" they were doing ok in quarantine which is a 20 gallon long (a lot of fish I know) I was planning on doing TTM but change over tanks everyday.

In the morning after I noticed that the fox was laying on his side and both the hawk and one clown have been breathing super fast. I put the clown and the fox in a freshwater dip for 9 minutes and then the next day today they all took a formalidhyde bath.
The fish have been transfered over 3 times to a new tank already and slowly acclimated to a 1.20 salinity.

Still labored breathing and only some fish eat. The only ones not eating are of course the fox, hawk, and the one clown.


Im stumped... Obviously there's been a lot of change but I don't know what to do. Also as of this afternoon the fox's one eye is cloudy I dont know if its fungal or he hurt himself..

And lastly there has been prazi pro in the water every time they enter a new tank.

The quarantine is barbortom with a powerhead and an air stone in the water to increase oxygenation. Pvc in the tank for hiding and salinity is tested by refractometer and rodi water for the changes and the dips.
I'll also add that I matched salinity and ph for the dips.

I don't know if it's flukes, brook, poor acclimation,
There are no visible signes of ich or velvet as well as the others mentioned besides the laboured breathing and lack of eating.


Any help would be greatly appreciated or any meds I should buy

 

[Naraku]

heavy breathing>>check ammonia.

Try different foods. Saltwater fish can be picky.

 

[Zacktosterone]

heavy breathing>>check ammonia.

Try different foods. Saltwater fish can be picky.

Heavvy breathing doesn't always equal ammonia. I've changed the water 100% 3 times in the last 2 days

 

[ThRoewer]

If your goal is to kill these fish you are you are on the right path, though I would just have thrown them into the freezer.

Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk

 

[Shanet]

Let the poor buggers have a rest from toxic baths for a bit.

 

[Zacktosterone]

I would really appreciate some support not harsh criticism. If your goal is to just offend me then you're on the right track. If you want to help educate me I'm all ears. If it's brook then I have to act quickly because it'll kill a fish in a day correct?? This is why I jumped on reef central To correct what I'm doing wrong. Note the original post

Im stumped... Obviously there's been a lot of change but I don't know what to do.

Any help would be greatly appreciated

Clearly stating that I know it's too much and that I feel like I'm doing more harm than good which is why I'm here. So if we're done with comments like (might as well of thrown them in the freezer) like I actually want to intently kill them... Then let's move on

Let the poor buggers have a rest from toxic baths for a bit.

Yeah I know it's a lot would you suggest it to be a good idea to add prime still? That way the ammonia would be neutralized and I can stop doing water changes to give them some rest

 

[Shanet]

Ok, fair comment. Here is what I see as being done wrong.

Acclimation:

You should never acclimate a fish for more than 30 minutes, after this time water becomes toxic in the bag and will surely kill your fish, hence your heavy breathing. Read up about this in the stickys section of "New to the Hobby"

You have way too many fish in a 20 gallon tank, I am currently QTing 2 fish in a 40 gallon and have to do water changes every 2 days as the water is toxic by then.

I have never used malachite green but I think it's made from benzaldehyde and dimethylaniline and I wouldnt use it on fish as it's primarily used as a dye and its use in aquariums as an antibacterial is open for discussion.

The main benefit of fresh water dip is to kill flukes nothing else as far as I know. (And very stressful to the fish)

It seems to me you have dipped them in every thing available and have not taken time to research what will fix what, stop dipping them and try and let them recover a bit,

My QT regime consists of 4 days feeding and observation,Prazipro, 21 days of chloroquine phosphate with another dose of Prazipro 10 days after the first, observation for 3 weeks.
This will kill almost any disease, if not a formalin bath will cover what's left.

The first thing you need to do is have less fish in more tanks and see how things go from there.

 

[microlady]

Whoa slow down? We are trying to help. A little research on your part would be beneficial. Too many meds, and too much stress can definitely kill a fish. One formalin bath would have been fine, and then start TTM. Prazi doesn't have to be added every day to be effective. It suppresses appetite sometimes. Malachite green can be poison to some marine fish, and methylene blue isn't necessary. I would ditch both. And you have way too many fish together in a 20 gallon. Read up on the stickies and take it slowly. There is no need to quarantine that many fish together. There is also no need for daily transfers unless you suspect Brook or Velvet, which the formalin baths would help. In fact the equipment doesn't have time to adequately dry daily. Two-three day transfers are better. Sometimes observation and a low stress environment is all that is needed.

 

[Zacktosterone]

So today everyone's breathing is regulated and the foxface and hawk as well as the clown are swimming around and responding to movement around the tank.
I did another water change this morning and tested ammonia and it's all good. I added some prime today to keep the ammonia toxicity down. I'll test feeding tonight any suggestions on what would be good for the fox besides algae or should I host stick with the Not I paper and brine and dip it in garlic

 

[Zacktosterone]

Whoa slow down? We are trying to help. A little research on your part would be beneficial. Too many meds, and too much stress can definitely kill a fish. One formalin bath would have been fine, and then start TTM. Prazi doesn't have to be added every day to be effective. It suppresses appetite sometimes. Malachite green can be poison to some marine fish, and methylene blue isn't necessary. I would ditch both. And you have way too many fish together in a 20 gallon. Read up on the stickies and take it slowly. There is no need to quarantine that many fish together. There is also no need for daily transfers unless you suspect Brook or Velvet, which the formalin baths would help. In fact the equipment doesn't have time to adequately dry daily. Two-three day transfers are better. Sometimes observation and a low stress environment is all that is needed.

Guys I really need the benefit of the doubt here I also need you guys to not assume why I do things and ask me questions. I'm only here to be corrected

Prazi needs to be added everyday because it's brand new water with no prazi in it anymore After 100% water changes I'm just replacing the medication that was taken out .

I've read snorvich's post they're in a new tank every 2 days http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/blog.php?b=782

The water changes were just to get a hold of ammonia until I was able to get prime. They've only been transferred once.

Safety stop is meant to be used before they enter the main display or qt.

The other dips were meant to help an immediate problem. The fish didn't get worse after the fresh water dip or the formalidhyde which were 24 hours apart. I've noticed improvement after each bath. Just not full recovery.

I've done a lot of research. I'm just here because I wanted to know if I missed anything and I've learned that my acclimation process is off. And I learned that prime detoxifies ammonia which I didn't know it did that originally, I thought it just helped with coat and conditioned the water if there was any chlorine.

What I didn't add is that I don't have a local fish store. Anything I order needs to be shipped. So buying a pair of clowns for 60 dollars then spending 60 dollars in shipping isn't possible. I have to buy enough to make it worth it to the well at to ship as well as afford the shipping. Why on earth would I not take it slowly and just buy 1 fish at a time if given the option

 

[ThRoewer]

1. I get the need to buy in bulk, but 16 fish is way too many in one QT at once. Tank size isn't the primary issue but rather that the likelihood of cross infections goes up a lot. I would split these fish into at least 2 groups:
- QT1: Chromis
- QT2: all the others

2. too many chemical baths. Formalin is all I would do in the beginning with these fish due to the risk of Uronema (Chromis) and Brooklynella, Trichodina and similar external protozoan skin and gill parasites (primarily Clowns & Chromis, but all the others too).
What was the purpose of all the other baths?

3. After formalin I would give the fish a rest and observe closely to see if there are any indications of an infection. Every treatment is a risk and clean fish don't need to be cleaned.

4. true fluke infections (= intestinal nematodes and trematodes) are rather rare with plankton feeders (=most of the fish you bought). I found them to be most prevalent with sand sifters and algae grazers.

5. Treatment against false flukes (skin and gill "flukes" are actually Monoganeans) should be done when there is a suspicion of an infection. If there is suspicion of a gill or skin infection I would recommend to try to narrow it down to the type of Monogenean you are dealing with to determine the proper treatment (invest into a microscope!).
PraziPro is not effective against all and causes fish to breathe heavy - additional aeration is required if you use PraziPro.
Some Monogenean are easily killed off by Hyposalinity (salinity < 15ppt),
some others require Trichorfon (Dylox)

As long as the fish look and behave healthy I would hold or at least spread treatments out to minimize stress. With the bombardment of chemical baths you unleashed on these fish it speaks rather for their health that you haven't had any losses yet.

 

[Jeff4777]

Too many unnecessary baths... No need for all that. 2 hour acclimation? When the air hits the water from the opened bag ammonia will quickly rise. They could of been affected while acclimating. I never acclimate fish. Just match temp and sg. Throw em in. That plus possible a temporary lack of o2. Then they were thrown straight into 2 medication dips after that. Plus 16 fish in a 20 gallon and exposure to additional random medications is not ideal. No wonder they were breathing hard, poor fishies need some recovery time.

 

[Zacktosterone]

1. I get the need to buy in bulk, but 16 fish is way too many in one QT at once. Tank size isn't the primary issue but rather that the likelihood of cross infections goes up a lot. I would split these fish into at least 2 groups:
- QT1: Chromis
- QT2: all the others

2. too many chemical baths. Formalin is all I would do in the beginning with these fish due to the risk of Uronema (Chromis) and Brooklynella, Trichodina and similar external protozoan skin and gill parasites (primarily Clowns & Chromis, but all the others too).
What was the purpose of all the other baths?

3. After formalin I would give the fish a rest and observe closely to see if there are any indications of an infection. Every treatment is a risk and clean fish don't need to be cleaned.

4. true fluke infections (= intestinal nematodes and trematodes) are rather rare with plankton feeders (=most of the fish you bought). I found them to be most prevalent with sand sifters and algae grazers.

5. Treatment against false flukes (skin and gill "flukes" are actually Monoganeans) should be done when there is a suspicion of an infection. If there is suspicion of a gill or skin infection I would recommend to try to narrow it down to the type of Monogenean you are dealing with to determine the proper treatment (invest into a microscope!).
PraziPro is not effective against all and causes fish to breathe heavy - additional aeration is required if you use PraziPro.
Some Monogenean are easily killed off by Hyposalinity (salinity < 15ppt),
some others require Trichorfon (Dylox)

As long as the fish look and behave healthy I would hold or at least spread treatments out to minimize stress. With the bombardment of chemical baths you unleashed on these fish it speaks rather for their health that you haven't had any losses yet.

Thanks a bunch!!

I'm positive the Chromis have eronomea it's super obvious with the red everywhere when they came in from shipmemt. What is best practice for that? They still have it of course...

I'll split them up tonight and report back

 

[ThRoewer]

If the Chromis have red sores (= likely Uronema infection) treat them with daily freshwater baths and Chloroquine diphosphate.
Since you kept all fish together foe at least some time I would treat the other ones equally - but separately.
The CP will also take care of Amyloodinium should it be present.

This is precisely why you don't want to put all new fish in one tank - the risk of one being sick and infecting all others is just too large.

 

[Zacktosterone]

If the Chromis have red sores (= likely Uronema infection) treat them with daily freshwater baths and Chloroquine diphosphate.
Since you kept all fish together foe at least some time I would treat the other ones equally - but separately.
The CP will also take care of Amyloodinium should it be present.

This is precisely why you don't want to put all new fish in one tank - the risk of one being sick and infecting all others is just too large.

Where do I get Chloroquine diphosphate

 

[ThRoewer]

Amazon.com: New Life Spectrum Ick-Shield Powder

 

[Naraku]

I have experienced fish death after 100% water change before work, came home to dead fish. Its definitely possible.

Check your ammonia. From your description, your tank is not cycled.

Medications can also cause heavy breathing.

Personally, unless you see spots or sores, I would get them eating before treating.

Heavvy breathing doesn't always equal ammonia. I've changed the water 100% 3 times in the last 2 days

 

[Zacktosterone]

I just picked up a 75 gallon tank and I'm setting it up. I also picked up a cycled sponge from a friend of mine. I'm going to toss it in a haang on the back filter as well

 

[microlady]

I have fish shipped to me as well because there are no reputable stores nearby and I would still never try to quarantine 16 fish at once. That is what I mean by slowing down. Think about the load you will put on the display when they all hit it at once. And ten chromis is just asking for problems IMO. They will eventually pick each other off and most come in with all kinds of bacterial problems. No offense, but if you had done plenty of research you shouldn't be adding all of these chemicals at once, and you definitely should not be making 100% water changes daily. I'm glad your fish are better, but I stand by what I said on slowing down. I personally would rehome the chromis, and just continue to TTM the others for 12 days with two rounds of Prazi. A couple of formalin baths wouldn't hurt before they are held for a month or two for observation in a large enough tank. The 75 gallon should work. I really hope it works out for you. You've come to the right place for advice. I've learned so much from this forum.

 

[Zacktosterone]

Just an update everyone is doing very well and eating now. No losses