When I set up my system I did not want any of the reactor effluent to dump into my sump. I placed a 1 1/2 T to a bulkhead fitting at my sump. One side goes to my skimmer input. The other is my reactor effluent. Therefore the only portion of the reactor effluent that enters my system is what goes through my skimmer.
What's Your Problem With Bio-Pellets?
- Thread starter t.trezona
- Start date
When I set up my system I did not want any of the reactor effluent to dump into my sump. I placed a 1 1/2 T to a bulkhead fitting at my sump. One side goes to my skimmer input. The other is my reactor effluent. Therefore the only portion of the reactor effluent that enters my system is what goes through my skimmer.
acesq
Premium Member
I have had pellets running in my 120 SPS system since I first set it up in September, 2010. I was trying to run a hybrid zeo system using the additives, including the carbon source, zeo start ,but not the zeolites. This worked very well for a year -- no algae ever, zero nitrates, moderately low phosphates (generally <.06) -- then the cyano began to appear. Thinking my phosphates were creeping up from an ever increasing bioload I added GFO. It reduced the phosphates, but not the cyano. I then used the zeobak/zeosnow and biomate/zeozym protocol to reduce significantly the cyano, but I never was able to completely eliminate it. Three or four months ago I stopped dosing the zeo start and within 2 weeks the cyano was completely gone. I haven't seen any since and my corals have never looked better.
My takeaway from this is that cyano may be caused by too much carbon dosing. So if you have the right amount of biopellets, don't dose vinegar or vodka.
My takeaway from this is that cyano may be caused by too much carbon dosing. So if you have the right amount of biopellets, don't dose vinegar or vodka.
What do you think is in zeostart 2 and why are you painting vinegar and vodka with that same brush?
The description is, as usual for zeovit, very vague, but it sounds more like a bacterial additive than an organic carbn source.
acesq
Premium Member
My nose tells me that there is acetic acid in Zeostart3 and Zeostart2. The smell is very strong. Whether that is vinegar or some other formulation, who knows.
This is what the sticky on Zeo products in the zeovit forum claims:
"ZeoStart
This is the carbon source; it smells like an Easter egg coloring kit (vinegar). I am sure it is some mixture of vinegar, sugar and/or something else but not sure exactly what.
ZeoStart helps in the reproduction of nitrifying bacteria which basically "˜eats' phosphate and nitrate. Zeostart works in conjunction with zeobak (the food for the bacteria) and zeobak works in conjunction with the zeolites."
It is not an "official" statement but it has been posted on the forum for some time.
If you compare the official descriptions of Zeostart and Zeobak in the KZ brochure, its pretty clear that the start is the carbon source and the bak is the bacteria culture.
I continue to add zeobak and biomate weekly at a lower dosage than recommended, usually in combination with the zeosnow and the zeozym. They do seem to keep the sand cleaner than without, but other than that, I really haven't been able to see any real benefit.
Psionicdragon
New member
The bad thing that I have experience is if you turn it off for a day or two, the anerobic bacteria starts to build up and blacken the media temporary. When you restart it, it releases sulfur into the system.
Another thing is that it clumps when there aren't enough flow or that there is too much "film" inside the reactor. I had to switch to different reactors multiple time, but in the end, you just have to clean the pellets once a week.
Another thing is that it clumps when there aren't enough flow or that there is too much "film" inside the reactor. I had to switch to different reactors multiple time, but in the end, you just have to clean the pellets once a week.
Well, I guess I would not want to take advice from that forum if such stuff is left unchallenged.
Nitrifying bacteria produce nitrate, they do not consume it. Denitrifying bacteria consume nitrate.
Products designed to spur nitrifying bacteria, as Zeostart 2 claims, are usually bacteria. I have no idea what is really in it, since they may just be intentionally misleading, but the description above is not to be trusted.
What do you think the zeobak "food" is if not the carbon source?
acesq
Premium Member
Well, I guess I would not want to take advice from that forum if such stuff is left unchallenged.
Nitrifying bacteria produce nitrate, they do not consume it. Denitrifying bacteria consume nitrate.
Products designed to spur nitrifying bacteria, as Zeostart 2 claims, are usually bacteria. I have no idea what is really in it, since they may just be intentionally misleading, but the description above is not to be trusted.
What do you think the zeobak "food" is if not the carbon source?
I think the writer of the sticky (to my understanding, not a KZ employee) meant to say that the Zeostart was the food for the Zeobak. While his language is awkward, I don't believe he meant to be misleading
The official KZ product brochure, while cryptic indeed, does say the that Zeobak "contains several bacterial strains that form a chain to reduce unwanted substances". The description in the brochure of Zeostart says it "is a food source" for the bacteria.
I guess this leads me back to the hypothesis that overdosing carbon sources, whether it be vinegar, sugar, vodka, pellets or any combination thereof, can promote the growth of cyano. I think I found the pellet amount/flow sweet spot for my tank.
The problem is that the zeo sales literature claims:
"ZEOstart accelerates the cycling process in new tanks. Fishes, hard and soft corals can be added safely in approximately 3 weeks after adding water to a new tank. "
That is not just a carbon source, or if it is, it is misleadingly described and is really intended to be used with other products that actually do the cycling. One cannot cycle a tank by just adding vinegar.
"ZEOstart accelerates the cycling process in new tanks. Fishes, hard and soft corals can be added safely in approximately 3 weeks after adding water to a new tank. "
That is not just a carbon source, or if it is, it is misleadingly described and is really intended to be used with other products that actually do the cycling. One cannot cycle a tank by just adding vinegar.
acesq
Premium Member
You can't cycle a tank by just adding a carbon source? Even in a home environment? I know you need the bacteria, and we typically introduce it with some live rock, but aren't some of the necessary strains fairly ubiquitous such that it can be done with fresh salt water and vinegar?
Regardless, to be fair to KZ, the program does call for the regular additions of both the carbon source and the bacteria in order to cycle the tank in 14 days and lower but continued additions of both thereafter.
That said, I understand, and share, your skepticism over the claims of companies that do not publish their ingredients.
Well, if you start with dry rock and add salt water and vinegar, you will get bacteria, but not the nitrifying bacteria bacteria needed to drive the nitrogen cycle. You need a source of ammonia. 
Spracklcat
Disaster Expert
Why is this bad? How do you know?
EddieJ
Premium Member
ZeoStart 2 & 3 are not intended to be used as a stand alone product. It must be used with ZeoBak, ZeoFood and the ZeoLiths (rocks). That is the basic 4 that can have a tank ready to go in 14 days. You do have to use live rock as well, if you use dry rock your time will be greatly extended.
ZeoBak is the bacteria, ZeoStart is the carbon source along with ZeoFood/Sponge Power and the Zeoliths are the media on which the bacteria colonize. Of course that is not the only place. I will say that ZeoStart is a highly concentrated carbon source, as I am dosing 1.2 ML a day on my 250 gallon system and that was a bit much and caused some cyano. On my previous tank I used to dose around 12ML of Vodka with the same basic livestock load.
In any event, I don't read word for word any of the Zeovit literature as the English translation is not always the best. I have read some of Thomas Pohl's posts (creator of Zeovit system) and his English is not the best to say the least.
So anyhow, back on topic, I experienced cyano due to excessive carbon dosing (not with BioPellets, but with ZeoStart) in a tank that was at 0 Nitrates and very low (.01-.02) phosphates.
acesq
Premium Member
Well, if you start with dry rock and add salt water and vinegar, you will get bacteria, but not the nitrifying bacteria bacteria needed to drive the nitrogen cycle. You need a source of ammonia.
I know we are a bit off-topic, but I am curious about your statement.
Theoretically at least, is ammonia produced by the bacterial consumption of the carbon source? If so, would this allow the growth of the nitrifying bacteria?
is it true that there are 2 strains (i know, wont be that easy 
) of cyano, one that lives in nutrient rich, and the other one in almost nutrient free water? thats what the owner of my LFS explained to me. you can get cyano by too many nutrients or too little nutrients.
most strategies for killing cyanos have so far been (in my point of view) for tanks with too many nutrients, and thus not applicable for tanks like ours, carbon dosed.
i wonder whether there can be a strategie to solve this? things ive tried so far: water changes, sucking it out, adding BIODIGEST in doses for highly polluted water to drive up beneficial bacteria, lights out, more flow. NOTHING helped. i have crystal clear water, happy corals and fish but the cyano will not vanish, even after stopping carbon dosing.
) of cyano, one that lives in nutrient rich, and the other one in almost nutrient free water? thats what the owner of my LFS explained to me. you can get cyano by too many nutrients or too little nutrients.most strategies for killing cyanos have so far been (in my point of view) for tanks with too many nutrients, and thus not applicable for tanks like ours, carbon dosed.
i wonder whether there can be a strategie to solve this? things ive tried so far: water changes, sucking it out, adding BIODIGEST in doses for highly polluted water to drive up beneficial bacteria, lights out, more flow. NOTHING helped. i have crystal clear water, happy corals and fish but the cyano will not vanish, even after stopping carbon dosing.
There is no nitrogen source in vinegar (or vodka) to allow production of ammonia. It is metabolized to CO2 and water only.
That makes more sense, although I do not see then what Zeostart actually does. Nitrifying bacteria are generally claimed in the literature to be chemolithotrophs and do not (cannot) take up organic matter for metabolism, so I fail to see how adding an organic carbon sources speeds that process in the slightest.
It would speed denitrification, as well all know.
is it true that there are 2 strains (i know, wont be that easy
.
There are tons of species of cyanobacteria. Some may be more suited to lower nutrient environments than others, but I think the idea that lower nutrients cause a particular type to grow more than that same species would at higher nutrient levels and everything else the same is just not cutting it, IMO. In general, lowering phosphate low enough without adding anything else can almost always eliminate cyano.
While I do not doubt there might be a case of something somewhere, I've never heard of any type of bacteria or algae that is deterred by elevated nutrients until those nutrients rise so incredibly high that they become toxic (like acetate/acetic acid rising all the way to being vinegar, which kills bacteria).
OTOH, competition changes as nutrient levels change, and a particular species of cyano might be outcompeted by other organisms at higher or lower nutrient levels, but at just the right levels it is the dominant consumer in the tank. The Goldilocks cyano.
acesq
Premium Member
Got it. Thanks!
ihavtats29
New member
i read this on a site with a write up on NP Bio Pellets
"On average this “solid vodka method” takes 2-4 weeks to give rise to sufficient bacteria to allow nitrate and phosphate levels to drop."
if so removing other media like GFO and phosphate sponges ext and starting the bio pellets you may get a change in parameters causing these cyano outbreaks.
BRS also states that allowing 8 weeks for proper bacteria propagation.
"On average this “solid vodka method” takes 2-4 weeks to give rise to sufficient bacteria to allow nitrate and phosphate levels to drop."
if so removing other media like GFO and phosphate sponges ext and starting the bio pellets you may get a change in parameters causing these cyano outbreaks.
BRS also states that allowing 8 weeks for proper bacteria propagation.
Ya, that's a potential problem I don't like either. So, I wired mine so that if the power goes off it stays off when the power comes back on. Then I have bypass valving so that I can flush the reactor down the drain when I start back up.
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