When do you chime in at LFS

I think it's okay to say something, so long as you are tactful and not rude to the store's owner. If I say something, I usually wait for the rep to walk away and I'm very careful with my words. Having said that, I sometimes hate saying anything because then I end up trying to explain every aspect of this hobby to someone. I can't teach you how to be a successful reefer in a 15 minute conversation. I refer them to here and our local club if they are interested in learning. If they don't want to learn, well, I'm definitely not wasting my breathe.
 
No it is not proper to get involved. If you want to pass them a card with your fish clubs information on it, and try to help with his education that way- great. Doing anything inside the shop is not ethical. You are a guest in the shop, and should behave as one. Your knowlege of fish gives you no dominion, right or responsibility for the care of the worlds fishes.

I personally think it is UNethical to know someone is getting sold a shoddy product or lied to and do nothing about it.

If a knowledgeable person can't speak up about 'fish' then who will?

That said, there is a way to help the person that won't make you look like a jerk, that's the course you should take.

I would personally never be afraid or back down from someone who is misinformed or straight up lying about a product. Ever.
 
I feel that we are all advocates for the corals and fishes we care for, and as such I feel the need to look out for the weak and sick, and this includes making sure that somebody new or uninformed does not take a less than prime specimen home just to suffer and die....it's one thing that they are selling them, it's another that they are selling them to those least prepared to nurse them back to health....

And that doesn't even speak to the potentially hobby ending effect that a number of "bad choices" can have on somebody new to the hobby....

Just my .02
 
IMO and the way the law works if you are in the store you are on the owner's property. All of this "wait until the rep walks away" concept is just highlighting the fact that you are in the wrong. If a used car salesman wants to say that a used Kia with 200k miles and run with no oil is still a great value, then he has every right to do that. Mislabeled fish is false advertising. Saying a mandarin will be fine in a 10g is opinion.

I agree it is wrong for LFS to mislead unknowing buyers, but again we as a customer have no right to intervene unless they are lying about a basic fact. Even then your rights stop at informing the BBB, not confronting anyone in store. The reason people wait for the owner to leave is because if you said something in front of him he could tell you to leave, and he would have every right to.

If people are really concerned about the lives of fish they can wait outside on public property and give their opinion there. But really if we were that concerned about the health and wellbeing of fish we wouldnt be in this hobby, as even good collection will inevitably result in loss of life. JMO
 
I disagree, we as humans have the right to help/assist other humans and share our knowledge/experiences regardless of pride.

There are tactful ways of calling out salesmen that do this without being insulting, condescending or aggressive. Consider this, you overhear said conversation and simply say "When I was in here last time you had one, the guy here told me those were hard to keep and should be quarantined for a few weeks"

Now, you aren't correcting them, just passing on information from some random person that may not have even worked there.
 
I once spoke up in a Wal-Mart about a person selling a catfish and a 1 gallon tank. I tried to explain but the customer wouldn't take NO for an answer and bought the fish anyway. I remember the fish's eyes to this day saying "help me.....help meee". If they were lying about a lifeless product I wouldn't say anything but I just can't justify sending an animal to its death like that. We are here to give these animals the best possible home, and anything less shouldn't be tolerated.
 
... We are here to give these animals the best possible home, and anything less shouldn't be tolerated.

Then dump them back in the ocean. :crazy1:

The pet trade in general has this justification behind it that somehow the animal is getting a better life by being removed from it's natural habitat and having whole portions of its reason for existing removed. Probably a result of us putting our own way of thinking into their heads. We figure they'll be perfectly happy is a tiny area (compared to what they'd get naturally), without needing to hunt, without being preyed upon and without breeding. We forget that the animal's whole point in existing is to be part of a food chain and pass on it's genes. We are basically taking away everything they are designed to do. Everything their instinct tell them they should be doing.

Is that the best possible home for these animals? Not really. Dump 'em back in the ocean if you can't tolerate them not having the best possible home (could get rather expensive though since many of these come from half-way across the world).


The other problem with the whole "We have a responsibility to the animals." concept is also, where do you end it? Does it just apply to reef fish, or just the fish you know about? Bad setups by the customer or just the store giving them bad information?

When you go down the list of horrible choices that are commonly made daily in this hobby, without anyone really complaining. The Betta section of any chain store? Goldfish? Large cichlids, Pacus, etc.. Brackish fish in freshwater (Dragon Gobies, Figure-8 Puffers, etc.). Saltwater fish in freshwater (Colombian Catfish, Green-Spotted Puffers, etc.). Arowana. The whole catfish family (Iridescent Sharks, Shovelnose, Redtail, Redtai/Shovelnose, etc.), especially the ones that require a small lake to live in. Turtles. Tangs. Sharks/Rays. Grouper.

At this point you should probably be figuring it is easier to just boycott the entire hobby. And this isn't limited to the fish trade. Rodents, reptiles especially, birds, even cats & dogs.


You can make a full time job out of searching out these horrors and correcting them. Some people do. But, unless a law is being broken there isn't much that can, or really should be done.
 
Khemul that was very well stated. That is the main reason I mind my own business unless specifically asked which isn't likely at the LFS.
 
Most LFS try to make their buck off the noobs. I don't really like that. Hobbyists that are in "the know" , and the LFS knows who they are , are left to make up their minds what the need, what they want etc. I have no right to tell him how to run his business. It's just too bad that so many fish are lost in the process.

I'm still a noob, but a well informed noob.lol
 
In retrospect, i think it's all capitalistic crap. the store does not have the "right" to sell a shoddy product, or misinform a customer to secure the sale. They simply have the money to operate a retail establishment. Unfortunately ethics are not a necesary aspect in the retail world. Just as they have the ability to spew whatever they want to convince a customer (factual or not), I have the ability to question- in front of anyone- the pitching and propaganda. If it helps someone from making a mistake, perfect. If it costs someone a job, oh well. Learn your product. Be respectful towards the people who are putting food on your table. realize that you need to be a master of your trade- or else you should not be in the trade. Just because you can doesn't mean you should. And just because I shouldn't doesn't mean I can't.
Ultimately we are responsible for our ourselves. Customers should research their purchases whether it be a fish or car. It is the nature of supply and demand. Not many of us demand a shoddy product. If everyone took responsibility for everyone, I'm sure you will find that these operations would disappear due to lack of busness because of their selfish practices.
 
IMO and the way the law works if you are in the store you are on the owner's property. All of this "wait until the rep walks away" concept is just highlighting the fact that you are in the wrong. If a used car salesman wants to say that a used Kia with 200k miles and run with no oil is still a great value, then he has every right to do that. Mislabeled fish is false advertising. Saying a mandarin will be fine in a 10g is opinion.

I agree it is wrong for LFS to mislead unknowing buyers, but again we as a customer have no right to intervene unless they are lying about a basic fact. Even then your rights stop at informing the BBB, not confronting anyone in store. The reason people wait for the owner to leave is because if you said something in front of him he could tell you to leave, and he would have every right to.

If people are really concerned about the lives of fish they can wait outside on public property and give their opinion there. But really if we were that concerned about the health and wellbeing of fish we wouldnt be in this hobby, as even good collection will inevitably result in loss of life. JMO

Spoken as a true attorney. IMO "too much bs law." Don't agree with me? Well, I think you'll find you're in the minority in this country now.
 
Too much politics. Why must we always resort to this? This is about giving advice to other people about bad purchases. Not capitalism or how a company that we already know (from a million other locked threads that resorted to this) that its sole purpose is to sell a product. Remain on topic.

As for my opinion on this, most of the time I see a confused look on a customers face after they speak to a SALES ASSOCIATE (not a specialist in the hobby) about purchasing equipment or livestock. I let them speak their part and then I talk to the customer about what they said. I rarely do this though. Only if what they said is beyond wrong and will just lead to disaster.
 
The other problem with the whole "We have a responsibility to the animals." concept is also, where do you end it? Does it just apply to reef fish, or just the fish you know about? Bad setups by the customer or just the store giving them bad information?

I'm sorry to say it, but I find that attitude a bit strange. Maybe it's because I'm from a country with very strict laws on cruelty to animals (you are not allowed to keep any fish in a tank under 15 g, you'd need a 1200 g tank to keep a large angel here and comply with the law, basic water parameters are defined - and if shops don't keep them in that range that's potentially classified as neglect/cruelty etc.).

And while one can't stop all acts of cruelty to animals I think it's important to speak up when and where one can. Talking to the customer when the shop attendant is gone isn't a bad idea. Neither is writing the management - especially in a big chain. They might be willing to do some training for their staff - not to help the animals but maybe to sell larger tanks and/or save their reputation.
 
i think is not what u say but how u say it no good advise is bad if giving the right way u dont need to be rude to educate a customer or salesperson im my case i always try to help even if sometimes im not asked for advise.
 
i WISH someone had intervened when I first started. I received some horrible advice and ended up making a lot of mistakes for trusting the LFS with the nice show tank. I would have lost a lot less livestock and been at least a year ahead on having a good tank rolling. We are all vey passionate about this hobby, I think we could go one step further and offer mentorship to noobs. Plus we get to talk about what we love.
 
i do speak up to the customer and the staff. in my opinion the best thing for this hobby and the store is more successful hobbyists.

the key is you dont have to be a jerk about it. a lot of times when the minimum wage kid is getting asked questions he is relieved to have someone that knows the answers actually speak up. as for customers give advice, not rules. their success means they come back and spend more money. its a win win for everyone.

ive seen many of these threads and i think the "no listening to reason" noobs, the "anything for a buck" store, and the self righteous hobbyist, are all equally in the wrong. so in the future, rather than fighting injustice, try just being helpful.
 
Spoken as a true attorney. IMO "too much bs law." Don't agree with me? Well, I think you'll find you're in the minority in this country now.

Funny, because I am not a lawyer. In fact in my line of work I have developed quite a distaste for them (but I digress).

My point was simply about attitude. I agree with people that offering your opinion in a polite way, especially if the bad information is coming from a clearly lost employee, is a responsible and helpful thing to do. I was just disagreeing with the proposed method of "wait until the store owner walks away and then tell the customer that the store owner is a lying thief" (overly dramatic?) If you want to politely share your opinion, that is perfectly fine. If the store owner then wants to politely ask you not to come back, that is also his perogative.

Much of the information is opinion in this hobby. An example: Many people on RC claim that garlic helps fight off disease, many others argue the exact opposite. Some data suggests garlic can be harmful long term, but even that is relatively limited in scope and application. So people can be both educated and have varying opinions. Is it fair that the store owner lost a sale of Cupramine because you came in and went off about how garlic is a better option? It is his store, and thus he has eminent domain for his opinions/practices.

This brings us to "what about the ethics of animal cruelty?" A.k.a dont we have a responsibility to protect the livestock? Yes and no. If I see someone beating their newly purchased clownfish with a rolled up newspaper Ill call animal services (and likely also a mental health provider). But if you want to argue that any practice that limits the natural lifespan of the animal is unethical behavior, then I think only PaulB would have the moral justification to keep his fish. Another example: Many very intelligent and experienced people on RC have posted stickies in the fish disease forum as guidance for all newbs (aka me). Copper is put forth as an effective and suggested treatment for many ailments. Yet copper is known to cause liver damage as well as other physiological changes to fish. Shouldnt there be fervent arguments claiming all of the seasoned veterans of disease are "unethical" for not only posting TT as a cure for ich? I bet they would be slightly irked if you hacked the server and changed their stickies, even if it was out of concern for the fish.
 
I used to speak up, but now I mainly just mind my own business. I've come to realize most people just have to learn from their own mistakes. Most noobs in a LFS are all pumped up about this cool new fish they've found; they don't want to hear any voice of reason. The LFS employee capitalizes on this, and in the end, you just look like an a-hole trying to be their buzzkill. So, I decided that I would rather spend my time on here helping those who are actually seeking help.

yep
 
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