When is it not a good idea to keep fish in quarantine?

[percula99]

Let me start off by saying that I am a firm beleiver in quarantining all fish that I buy before introducing them into my system. I keep them in a 75 gallon bare bottom tank with rocks and ABS pipes for hiding places. I also treat with Cupramine from the very start. Please do not side track this thread by criticizing my QT method. It has worked for me for years. This is not the point of this thread. Let's stick to the topic at hand.

Are there exceptions to the quarantine rule? Can the QT process do more harm than good?

1) I redecorated my tank after cooking my rock and decided to QT all my fish just to be on the safe side. It wasn't actually necessary to QT them. After two weeks my Potter's Leopard Wrasse was suffering badly. He had been swimming around the entire time with his mouth on the bottom and his mouth was now open all the time and he was noticeably losing weight and not eating anymore. I decided to put all the fish back in and the next day he was back to his old self again.

2) I had a Purple tang in QT for three weeks and hardly ever saw him because he was alone in the QT and was afraid. He ate small amounts of prepared food and some Nori. The day after putting him in the DT he was swimming around like he owned the tank.

3) I just bought a Powder Blue and a Blonde Naso last night and put them in the QT. I expected to see both swimming around the tank today when I got home from work but both were hiding in the ABS pieces instead and would not come out to eat. Both were incredibly healthy when I bought them and very thick. The Powder Blue came out and was swimming around with his mouth on the bottom like the wrasse did.

I resist putting them in the display as I know the possible consequences. But is QT doing more harm than good? Any constructive opinions would be appreciated.

 

[jcw]

Have you tested the water in QT?

I find my VERY BEST results using DT water in QT. Pulling 2 gallons out of the DT and replacing two gallons of the QT water with the DT water.

The newly mixed saltwater goes into the DT. I don't trust it being at a reasonable alkalinity or completely ammonia free.

 

[percula99]

jcw...No I don't test the QT water. Mainly because I do a water change almost every week on the QT. I dump 25 gallons of water from the QT, put in 25 gallons from the DT, and put the new water in my DT. Like you said, only in larger quantities. I also have an amonia wheel in the QT to alert me in case of problems I don't see.

 

[mess7777]

I would think the hiding is normal for a couple of days. These fish have made a heck of a journey, from being pulled out the ocean shipped, accimilated to one tank at the LFS, and then in another bag to your house and yet another new environment.

I am fairly new to the experience of QT, but have been struggling with ammonia as my QT is not yet cycled.

However, when I did place my fish into it(in my case to treat for ich) it took them a good 2-3 days before they came out from hiding to eat and explore. They also fought each other a bit for the prime flower pots/PVC(not sure why they seem to prefer one over the other).

 

[Faye]

IMO, I don't care for the QT process. Most people don't do it right to begin with, and most of the time when you QT you do more harm then good. It takes a lot of time and effort as well. Not to mention, suppose the naso is clean, but the powder blue has ich and you put them both in the same tank, now you have to treat both fish. These fish are from the wild, so should have a pretty big immune (sp?) system against the ich. Tangs are also so rediculously sensitive to copper, and hypo is very difficult to do and would only work better in a much larger QT tank, if it's to small you will have salinity swings. I had a powder brown tang a couple of years back, and he had ich. He was fat and healthy, but time to time he would show the white spot. I had him for like three years. I eventually sold him because he out grew my tank. Well the guy in my local reef club I sold it to QT it. It died in QT. Now I am not saying to add noticably sick fish to your DT, it is obviously better to keep the pest out. But if a fish like the powder blue does have ich, and you add it to a tank with new tank syndrom(QT), it really spells disaster to me. Powder blue tangs are already difficult fish to keep, don't need to throw them into a tank with new tank syndrom.

What usually works for me is when I look at healthy fish in the fish store, or on a trusted site like live aquarias divers den in the WYSIWYG section. The fish are normally healthy, and I believe live aquaria does QT them for you. Ibluewater.com also qt them for a straight month for you.

JMO, not trying to tell you not to QT, just what I have noticed over the years

 

[percula99]

I would think the hiding is normal for a couple of days. These fish have made a heck of a journey, from being pulled out the ocean shipped, accimilated to one tank at the LFS, and then in another bag to your house and yet another new environment.

I am fairly new to the experience of QT, but have been struggling with ammonia as my QT is not yet cycled.

However, when I did place my fish into it(in my case to treat for ich) it took them a good 2-3 days before they came out from hiding to eat and explore. They also fought each other a bit for the prime flower pots/PVC(not sure why they seem to prefer one over the other).

I completely agree with your comments on fish going through shipping and new environments, and that being stressful to them. That is the exact reason why I QT in the first place. But I have shown examples that are from personal experience showing that some fish don't come out in a couple of days. I am talking weeks and they have not gotten over the QT but when introduced to the DT they revert back to normal again.

You mentioned amonia and cycling your QT. I use strictly water from my DT for the QT process. No need to cycle the QT if you do that. I feel you made a good decision to QT. Good luck in the future.

 

[b0bab0ey]

I've read that gobies and Mandarins are pretty disease-resistant, and some forgo the QT process with these. Not advocating that, just sayin.

My problem with QTing sand-sifting gobies/Mandarins is I don't have a QT that has live sand for the goby to sift and/or pods for the Mandarin to eat. You'd basically have to setup a reef QT for those. So how do you QT those and not risk them starving to death?

 

[percula99]

IMO, I don't care for the QT process. Most people don't do it right to begin with, and most of the time when you QT you do more harm then good. It takes a lot of time and effort as well. Not to mention, suppose the naso is clean, but the powder blue has ich and you put them both in the same tank, now you have to treat both fish. These fish are from the wild, so should have a pretty big immune (sp?) system against the ich. Tangs are also so rediculously sensitive to copper, and hypo is very difficult to do and would only work better in a much larger QT tank, if it's to small you will have salinity swings. I had a powder brown tang a couple of years back, and he had ich. He was fat and healthy, but time to time he would show the white spot. I had him for like three years. I eventually sold him because he out grew my tank. Well the guy in my local reef club I sold it to QT it. It died in QT. Now I am not saying to add noticably sick fish to your DT, it is obviously better to keep the pest out. But if a fish like the powder blue does have ich, and you add it to a tank with new tank syndrom(QT), it really spells disaster to me. Powder blue tangs are already difficult fish to keep, don't need to throw them into a tank with new tank syndrom.

What usually works for me is when I look at healthy fish in the fish store, or on a trusted site like live aquarias divers den in the WYSIWYG section. The fish are normally healthy, and I believe live aquaria does QT them for you. Ibluewater.com also qt them for a straight month for you.

JMO, not trying to tell you not to QT, just what I have noticed over the years

You hit the nail on the head. Sometimes you can do more harm than good. My point exactly, yet I do beleive in the QT process. And yes, even I have killed fish in the QT process, where I am sure if I had put them in the DT they would have survived.

I never get salinity swings in my QT because I put a piece of tape on the tank with a line to represent the water line and top it off to that every day. Kind of like what you do with your sump.

 

[percula99]

I've read that gobies and Mandarins are pretty disease-resistant, and some forgo the QT process with these. Not advocating that, just sayin.

My problem with QTing sand-sifting gobies/Mandarins is I don't have a QT that has live sand for the goby to sift and/or pods for the Mandarin to eat. You'd basically have to setup a reef QT for those. So how do you QT those and not risk them starving to death?

I have never QTd a Mandarin, but I haven't kept one in years and that was before I started QTing everything. I did keep an Orange Spot Goby in a bare bottom QT for two months once while my tank was running fallow to kill off any ich I had. He adapted to eating any food I put in for the other fish and went back to sifting sand when reintroduced to the DT.

 

[mess7777]

You mentioned amonia and cycling your QT. I use strictly water from my DT for the QT process. No need to cycle the QT if you do that. I feel you made a good decision to QT. Good luck in the future.[/QUOTE]

I did use DT water as well. However, I didn't have any filter media(sponge for example) in my sump so the bacteria didn't come with. Still cycling.

 

[sanchoy]

I have kept many small-mid tanks ever since I started the hobby.

QT tanks:
75,55,40breeder,20,various 10.

Depending on the fish size I will put them in the according tank. Tangs usually go in the 75 or 55. Yes, thats alot of water for one fish, however I have always used DT water for QT purposes. All my QT tanks are bare bottom with PVC pipes inside for the fish to hide from me.

I am a firm believer in the QT process. Also, never put two fishes in the same QT tank, thats just my opinion.

 

[Palting]

I QT and hypo treat all new fish. The only exception I've made is on a green mandarin. 3 reasons I did the exception. First, the manadarin would eat only live pods, and he would likely starve for the 6 weeks I do my QT. Second, mandarins are reistant, not immune, but are highly resistant to Ich. Exactly the opposite end of the spectrum from your current tangs. Third, I did QT and hypo treat a spotted madarin. He did make it, but he straved for those 6 weeks. He came through looking like a tadpole, with a thin body and big head. He is now fat and happy.

I don't depend on water changes from the DT to control water quality in the QT. I have a cannister filter for my QT, and biomedia sitting in my sump to act as seed for the cannister if and when I need it.

I know it's controversial, but I would strongly recommend you do hypo as well on your new tangs. The Ich can hide in the gills, even if you QT, and not see them during simple observation. That's what happened to me and my original 110 gal.

 

[greech]

I have never QT'd but mainly because of the low number of fish I have. Assuming water quality is up to par in the QT, I would guess your fish are less comfortable due to lack of substrate (wrasse) and possible lack of LR (not sure how much you have). IMO there are a few fish that should not be QT'd. Many angels and wrasses do not do well in sterile QTs with little to no LR to graze on/hide in. One thing youcan try for the wrasse if you keep him in QT is put a shallow bowl of sand in for it to hide/sleep in.

 

[EddieJ]

QT is simply about risk tolerance... Your display system is a closed system and things that are introduced to this system are challenging to remove. That can be a sick fish or the disease / parasite itself. So you have to ask yourself, do I want to risk stressing many fish with a disruption to their environment by the process of tearing down their home to remove this sick fish or by stressing these fish with the introduction of a disease or parasite? Or do I reduce this risk by possibly stressing one fish thru an extended QT process?

So if you do not have the resources to properly QT the species of new fish you choose, you increase your risk to your DT by shortcutting the QT process. Anytime you do not observe a fish for 6-8 weeks in QT, you increase risk to your DT system and inhabitants.

So you ask yourself, do I feel lucky?

There are many paths to success in this hobby and there really is no one "Right Way" to do things. It is just a matter how much risk can I tolerate. At the end of the day it is your system and only you can determine what level that is.

So I would say the exception to the rule is when you feel like gambling.....

 

[blue736]

QT is a hard process to get down at first. read, ask questions, read some more, etc. if ammonia/nitrite is present, then the fish are likely going to be stressed.

one thing I have heard, is some fish are bothered with their reflection in the bottom of the QT. maybe try to cover that with a piece of black or blue paper? I bought some cheap fake saltwater plants that I only use in QT. that helps some to give a more natural look for your fish.

are you treating both the new tangs with copper? also heard that can make the fish spooked. heard, but never personally confirmed.

DT water will not help your QT cycle. if you don't have bio media or something similar already cycled, then you will need to do small water changes in the QT. in a 10g, i would do 1-3 gallons a day as needed. after a week or two, maybe you could do less than that or less frequently until your media in the QT is cycled.

also there is nothing wrong putting rock and/or sand in the QT. just don't EVER put that back in the DT! it should be cleaned and kept with all your other QT items when not in use...

 

[Pallobi]

when is it not a good idea to qt your fish?

how about never... there is a reason there is a process in place and highly recommended by most hobbyist... ignore it, and eventually you will be sorry... regardless of what a few here and there may say... research, learn some stories of others, and visit a few LFS's r distributors if you can, and you will see why QT is so highly recommended my most...

 

[b0bab0ey]

Here's my 2 cents on QT...

Most of the gurus on here advocate QTing w/a bare bottom tank, using only a sponge or power filter for filtration. And I can see the advantages of that, esp if you need to medicate. But the problem is, it seems to me with such a setup you'd have to constantly be doing WCs to keep the ammonia at bay. I mean, who really has time for that? It takes enough out of my day just maintaining my DT.

So I use a good old fashioned u/g filter w/crushed coral. Instead of doing daily WCs, I do WCs every two weeks or so just to keep the nitrates down. The only disadvantage I see is when I medicate w/copper I have to test to ensure my copper levels stay up. But for just holding, it works great.

 

[percula99]

I have read several comments on this thread finding a fault in my method, and that is not having a biological media source. I apologize right now, I forgot to mention that I do run a mature canister filter on my QT. That would make a lot more sense that running without one. Sorry for the oversight.

As I mentioned at the beginning I do beleive in the QT process and have been doing it for years. The reason I started this post is because of the reaction my wife is having to the Tangs in QT. She started with "the water quality is bad, they are going to die" and "they are too freaked out and won't do well." I countered with "If I put them in the DT and they are sick we could lose all the fish in there." Anyway...I digress. The fish were in perfect health in the first place or I would not have bought them. They obviously are not happy in the sterile environment I provide for them but will survive. I mentioned the Purple Tang earlier and he is doing just fine in the DT now that he is in a reef with other fish.

In short, I agree with EddieJ, it is better to stress the fish in QT rather than risk the entire DT population.

 

[Faye]

You hit the nail on the head. Sometimes you can do more harm than good. My point exactly, yet I do beleive in the QT process. And yes, even I have killed fish in the QT process, where I am sure if I had put them in the DT they would have survived.

I never get salinity swings in my QT because I put a piece of tape on the tank with a line to represent the water line and top it off to that every day. Kind of like what you do with your sump.

I think in theory the QT practice is a fantastic idea also. I just don't think it works out well in reality.

I've thought about this before. Imagine yourself brand new to the hobby and you just saw finding nemo. Now you want to go out and buy nemo. Not so fast. To properly set up and QT the tank this is what needs to be done. You need to set your aquarium up, and let it go through it's nitrification cycle. After this process is done, you usually start seeing a diatom bloom. This is when you can start adding some snails. This is about 1 month in. Suppose it takes another 2-4 weeks to get the rest of your clean up crew in the tank, now the tank is two months old. Now slowly start adding some coral you want. This could take another 2-3 months to get a good amount of what you want in the display. Now your tank is about 5 months old. Then you should really let your tank run fallow for 8-10 weeks so any ich that came in on rock, inverts, or corals dies. Just because ich only effects fish, does not mean they can not tag a ride on a snail to get into your tank. So at this point your tank is 7.5 months old, and you are ready to add fish. You have to have them quarantined and treated for about four weeks before you add them. You could have done this while the main display was running fallow. So you can factor a good 7 months before you add any fish. I would say this is the most effective way of going about this since you are allowing more of your reef to sit in a cycled aquarium. Same thing for corals. No new hobbyist will listen to this, impatience will get the better of them. If this is done correctly, everything that hits your water column from this point on must be QT for 10 weeks to ensure that the life cycle of ich is killed. Inverts and coral can not go through a copper bath, it will kill them. Just adding one snail with out QT could possibly wreck everything you have worked for.

That's the way I have always looked at it. Maybe someone can give a better way to QT?

Just my .02

 

[b0bab0ey]

Not to hijack, but since this thread is somewhat about buying sick fish, have any of you ever considered getting to the source of the problem? I don't mean the LFS you buy from; I mean the wholesaler THEY buy from. I live in KC, and I noticed a long time ago that almost every LFS in this area would have sick fish except for two. Unfortunately, those two are the two smallest shops. I did a little asking, and I found out those two LFSs buy from the sale wholesaler: Segrest. So I started ordering from these two LFSs, but I buy right out the bag before it even hits their tanks. Before I did this I was losing fish like crazy. I haven't lost a fish since. Gotta be more than just a coincidence.