Where did it come from?

[jmm]

I started a new tank with all new equipment. The rock, dry rock, was "cooked" with Muriatic acid. The sand was dry sand (Reef Flakes) that I thoroughly washed before adding it to the tank. It was so clean that there was no clouding up when I added the RO/DI water. I cycled with pure ammonia (Dr. Tim's) and Dr. Tim's bacteria. It actually cycled in two days. The refugium section had new Marine Pure blocks.

Next in were two Blood Shrimp (fire shrimp). They were fed New Life Spectrum pellets for two weeks. Then I started buying fish and quarantining them for 6 weeks in a 30 gallon I keep for that. No fish added to the display tank showed any sign of disease.

Fish now included a pigmy wrasse, a clownfish, a Tinker Butterfly, a Mitratus Butterfly, a Pearlscale Butterfly, a Magnificent Foxface (a mistake, a trap is on order), and an Indian Ocean Teardrop Butterfly. None of these fish are recent additions. It has been several months since I added fish.

In all this time there has been no hair algae, no bubble algae, no pest algae or cyano of any kind. All I've had to do was clean the glass. The fish had smooth, unblemished skin and clear fins. There was no itching and behavior was eager and competitive with no bullying except the Foxface would chase but not catch the Mitratus.

Today, this morning, in fact, some of the butterflies had a little cloudiness to their fins. As the day has progressed, some more cloudiness and some of the others are showing it. It's not a fine powder like Ick. Or is it? It now shows up on some of their bodies as well as their fins. So far, their appetites are still competitive and only three of the butterflies are displaying symptoms.

What is this and where did it come from? If it's bacterial or chemical sloughing, what did I do? This tank has been trouble-free in all respects for so many months and nothing has been changed and nothing new added.

Any ideas?

If general dirtyness was possible since it is an open top tank I changed the socks, replaced the GFO and carbon and I am now mixing up a water change. Any more ideas?

 

[jmm]

I did the 20% water change as soon as the water cleared and came up to temperature.

Only three of the butterflies are showing symptoms: the Tinkeri, Mitratus, and Indian Ocean Teardrop. Of course those are the prettiest and most expensive. The wrasse, clownfish and Foxface show no symtoms yet.

Maybe I should mix more water. What do you think?

 

[Deinonych]

A couple of comments:

1. If you used dry rock, it's highly unlikely the tank cycled in two days. You may have shown zero ammonia after that timeframe, but it was in no shape to support livestock. In my experience, it takes anywhere from 4-6 weeks to completely cycle a tank with dry rock and sand, even with a bacteria booster like Dr. Tim's. My benchmark for a tank being completely cycled is for it to process 2-3ppm NH3 to nitrate in 24hrs or less. That said, what are your water parameters?

2. What is your QT protocol? You say the fish were quarantined for 6 weeks; were they proactively treated for parasites? If so, how?

3. It's hard to say what the cloudiness might be, but it could be related to water quality. If possible, post some pictures of the affected fish so a diagnosis can be attempted.

 

[e048]

how big of a tank is it?
(not related but Im from DFW too )

could be several things, some diseases can stay dormant unless your treat for it.

water quality can also cause inherent organisms present in your fish to take attack (opportunistic infections)

what did you qt them with, did you add any medications for parasites or bacterial or fungi?

 

[jmm]

A couple of comments:

1. If you used dry rock, it's highly unlikely the tank cycled in two days. You may have shown zero ammonia after that timeframe, but it was in no shape to support livestock. In my experience, it takes anywhere from 4-6 weeks to completely cycle a tank with dry rock and sand, even with a bacteria booster like Dr. Tim's. My benchmark for a tank being completely cycled is for it to process 2-3ppm NH3 to nitrate in 24hrs or less. That said, what are your water parameters?

2. What is your QT protocol? You say the fish were quarantined for 6 weeks; were they proactively treated for parasites? If so, how?

3. It's hard to say what the cloudiness might be, but it could be related to water quality. If possible, post some pictures of the affected fish so a diagnosis can be attempted.

1. The ammonia went to zero in 24 hours. The nitrite went up and then to zero in 48 hours, leaving 10ppm nitrate, which over the next 4 weeks went to zero. I assume the block of Marine Pure was somewhat responsible for this. Regardless of whether it was two days or 6 weeks, the fish (except for the two shrimp) didn't go in for at least 8 weeks. The tank was cycled by then for sure, having been fed pellets once or twice a day for two months to feed the shrimp. All the fish didn't go in at once. Usually one, once two fish were quarantined before releasing them into the display. Which means that the first fish had been in quarantine 6 weeks, then another 6 weeks in the display before the next one was added, then another 6 weeks before the next one was added. Nothing was rushed and all of the fish have been in there for two months minimum, some several months. This is not a new tank. It has proven itself, and so have the fish. Since it is a fish only tank, I assume the calcium/alkalinity/magnesium levels are somewhat unimportant. The ammonia/nitrite/nitrate cycle is good. All are zero, the nitrate is less than 5.

2. My quarantine protocol is not strict. I have a 20 gallon, cycled tank that has never had a disease in it. I don't prophylactically treat. I haven't had to. If a disease were to show up, I would sterilize and restart the 20. There is a Pakistani Butterfly in there now that shows no sign of disease. I hate to treat for a disease that I don't see evidence of. Most of the fish came from Divers' Den and have been prophylactically treated. If they don't eat and gain weight in the quarantine, I wouldn't keep them. But all of these did.

3. I'll try tomorrow to take pictures when the lights are back on but I don't have a lot of hope for clarity. If I were to describe the affliction, I would say that early in the day it looked like mild fin rot, which would lead me to believe overfeeding might have caused bacterial opportunities. However, later today it looked more like Ick because it had spread beyond the fins. It is an aggressive progression. However, it still hasn't curbed their appetite. I did change 20% of the water.

 

[jmm]

how big of a tank is it?
(not related but Im from DFW too )

could be several things, some diseases can stay dormant unless your treat for it.

water quality can also cause inherent organisms present in your fish to take attack (opportunistic infections)

what did you qt them with, did you add any medications for parasites or bacterial or fungi?

The tank is 120 gallons. It is 2x2x4. The sump is also 4 feet long (Trigger) with two 8 inch socks and the skimmer is Bubble King 180. The dual reactor (GFO and GAC is by SpectraPure and the return pump is a Bubble Blaster. It has two Vortech 40's for circulation (turned way down "” I only needed them because I had the tank built with 3/4 inch glass for looks). Lights are Ecotech, also.

I'm thinking you might be right on water quality since it's been a while since I did a water change. I took care of that today and may repeat it tomorrow. My skimmer performance and the large amount of carbon in the reactor, as well as the absolutely beautiful health of the fish until today, lulled me into inaction on that.

Hopefully, they're no worse tomorrow and another water change will upgrade the quality.

 

[ThRoewer]

As a minimum all my new fish get a formalin bath before going into quarantine - there are way too many nasty things (Amylodinium, Brooklynella, Uronema, Trichodina, flukes, ...) that can linger on a fish for weeks or even months without showing. But most of them just sit on the fish's skin or in its very top layer and will be killed during a formalin bath.

Diver's Den fish are for sure not disease free - just search the forums here. They may get some treatment but since they are kept in a connected system a new or reinfection can't be ruled out.

 

[e048]

Make sure that your carbon isn't too old carbon usually losses its effectiveness in about a week depending on how meu water flows through it and the size of the carbon particles I don't run carbon in my tanks and my water is crystal clear.

Check your skimmer and run it a little wet for a few days if you can that can also help improve water quality

Make sure the symptoms aren't spreading to other fish feed them food with vitamins added soak nori in selcom or another vitamin supplement sometimes the fish can kick the sickness

 

[jmm]

Thanks for all the advice. I pretty much follow it, maybe not exactly, but I understand caution.

Maybe my posts were too long and everybody didn't read the whole thing, but the title says it all: Where did it come from? or how did I get it. It showed up yesterday and rapidly progressed to three of the butterflies. You could see the advancement over a period of hours. It's not logical that it's a disease that has laid dormant for 5 months on at least one of the three.

e048 seems to think water quality. So do I. That, or contaminant, although I don't know how that could happen.

They are no worse this morning and no other fish seem affected. I changed carbon yesterday as well as the filter socks and the GFO and did a 20% water change. My reactor holds a lot of carbon and the old carbon was only 2 weeks old.

I'm going to do another 20% water change when the temperature comes up.

 

[jmm]

I did the water change.

 

[Deinonych]

Maybe my posts were too long and everybody didn't read the whole thing, but the title says it all: Where did it come from? or how did I get it. It showed up yesterday and rapidly progressed to three of the butterflies. You could see the advancement over a period of hours. It's not logical that it's a disease that has laid dormant for 5 months on at least one of the three.

When was the last fish added to the aquarium? Many parasites can be present without the fish exhibiting symptoms. Since you do not have a strict quarantine per your response above, it is entirely possible that a parasite slipped in unnoticed.

Diver's Den fish are for sure not disease free - just search the forums here. They may get some treatment but since they are kept in a connected system a new or reinfection can't be ruled out.

+1

LA/DD recommends quarantine for all purchases, even Diver's Den. Diver's Den is really an extended conditioning/acclimation and is by no means a substitute for a good quarantine protocol. Personally, I've received the same high quality livestock from their "ordinary" Live Aquaria selection (which is sourced through Quality Marine) as I have via Diver's Den. For me, the only real benefit of DD is the fact that it is WYSIWYG.

 

[jmm]

The last fish went in, after 6 weeks in an isolation tank (it's not for treatment, unless I have to turn it into that which I didn't have to) about 5 weeks ago.

I'm not relying on DD to quarantine, but they do prophylactically treat.

I'm still not thinking disease, but water quality. Butterflies are particularly sensitive to that. I will do the third 20% change today.

 

[Deinonych]

A picture would be extremely helpful.

 

[jmm]

I did the third water change.

I'll try for a picture shortly. However, one of the symptoms of the affliction is shyness. These butterflies, 3 of which show symptoms, until this episode were like puppies, they came swimming and congregating right up to me whenever they saw me. Now, unless they think I have food, they're all in their caves and hiding places. A close-up with the phone is going to be tricky. It usually scares them.

Only one of them is seriously affected. He is the smallest, the Indian Ocean Teardrop, and is only about the size of a quarter. He was the last in and I probably wouldn't have put him in until he grew some except I wanted the observation tank for the new Pakistani Butterfly and he was doing so well.

 

[Deinonych]

The reclusiveness is concerning, and is typically an indication of disease. Hopefully you can post some pictures, as I don't think this is a water quality issue.

 

[jmm]

Picture was not easy since the phone scares the fish. I don't think you can see the skin clearly enough to diagnose or not. I can see the fins and the cloudiness. It enlarges well on my monitor.

It's probably ick. The characteristic "better in the morning, worse as the day goes on" syndrome is in effect.

I have a fish trap coming tomorrow but I don't think I'm prepared to do copper or hyposalinity And that's assuming the fish trap works. The live rock in the tank is heavy. There is no piece less than thirty pounds and I may have to just let the disease run its course and lay fallow for 8 to 10 weeks. That's a shame, but I don't think of anything else that would work.

 

[jmm]

I really hate to start over. Those are some beautiful fish.

 

[Deinonych]

Please don't quote racist posts. Misled

Yes, that's correct. I did not intend to imply that the non-Diver's Den livestock was sourced from the Wisconsin facility - hence my parenthetical note about QM providing the LA stock.

 

[jmm]

All the fish are hanging in there but they're not well. However, some have not been affected yet. Appetites are still ravenous and competitive.

 

[jmm]

Another day: I haven't lost anything yet and the appearance has improved. The behavior when feeding the tank is normal. Appetites are good and only three of the fish show signs of what I suppose is ich. However, between meals there is some scratching and a tendency to hang out in front of the powerheads. I've turned them up.

Before this infestation, the fish were eager to see anybody that came up to the tank. Now, not so much.