Where should I keep Nitrates for the best SPS color?

I posted early this year about my high nitrates and some brown corals. Unfortunately I think most of my color issues were light cycle related, mine was way too long. I now am running biopellets and dosing CaNO3 to keep nitrates around 5 and phosphates around .06 and it's working fairly well.

Before I was dosing CaNO3 I could not keep PO4 below .1 without GFO and I was killing acros from swinging PO4 too fast. Since switching to biopellets and CaNO3 dosing I haven't lost a coral and have colors in acros that had been brown for a long time.

Unknown formally brown block :)
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Miami Orchid
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Unknown frag
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Nasuta
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Needless to say my slimer loves higher nitrates.
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Someone earlier in the thread posted about a Red Dragon getting darker with higher nitrates. Mine is still pinkish, even with Nitrates at 5, but it's growing fairly fast. I've only had it for 2 months, no long term experience.
 
I have been dosing potassium nitrate and potassium phoshate for the duration of 9+ months.
Not necessary all the time, it depends on what has been depleted faster.
I have noticed whenever my NO3 drops below 1ppm, I would get random bleaching from sps. Some will start at the base, so at the tips of coral.
Whenever PO4 stays at 0ppm for prolong time i.e 2+ weeks! PE of sps would retract back into the flesh.
Now I try to keep my NO3 between 2.5 to 10ppm - usually shoot for 5ppm.
PO4 - 0.03 to 0.10ppm at most time.
Currently I am dosing PO4 daily as my tank is consuming 0.05ppm.
NO3 have not move much as it is slow. Probably due to the DIY amino acids I am adding 120ml daily on dosing pump.
 
I have been dosing potassium nitrate and potassium phoshate for the duration of 9+ months.
Not necessary all the time, it depends on what has been depleted faster.
I have noticed whenever my NO3 drops below 1ppm, I would get random bleaching from sps. Some will start at the base, so at the tips of coral.
Whenever PO4 stays at 0ppm for prolong time i.e 2+ weeks! PE of sps would retract back into the flesh.
Now I try to keep my NO3 between 2.5 to 10ppm - usually shoot for 5ppm.
PO4 - 0.03 to 0.10ppm at most time.
Currently I am dosing PO4 daily as my tank is consuming 0.05ppm.
NO3 have not move much as it is slow. Probably due to the DIY amino acids I am adding 120ml daily on dosing pump.

Looks like you are in a tightrope!
My experience with the nutrients is opposite of the most people issues, i have 0 phosphates and nitrates were above 50ppm, and with that i had boom of cyanobacteria.
I solved the problem by adding potassium phosphate plus vodka dosing, so now i have 2ppm nitrate and dose phosphate bi-weekly so i can control nitrate.
Another thing i notice whenever PO4 stays at 0ppm for a week or more my SPS corals start to retract the PE and have burn tips, and if i don´t raise the phosphate I loose the coral! I think light have a big word in this relation!
 
Any more updates on this thread? I too am looking to increase my nitrates to try and achieve better color. My phosphates are currently at .027 and nitrates at 0ppm. I have recently removed both my Carbon and Phosphate reactor and will feed heavier in hopes to increase my nitrates.
 
I've always had under 10 ppm of nitrate, sometimes 5 ppm, and have had almost 0 ppm using bio pellets. I really didn't notice much difference in color. The thing I really noticed that can affect color is the concentration of phosphate. I change my GFO like clockwork, every 30 days. Recently I started using the Bulk Reef Supply High Capacity GFO and it has stripped the phosphate in my aquarium and the colors in some acros are really faded, not brown but faded. No other conditions have been changed over the 4 years the tank has been running. When using the HC GFO, I had a much higher flow rate through the reactor in order to tumble the media properly because of the weight difference. This to me is where things went south. I haven't lost any corals but I watch my tank enough on a daily basis to know when something isn't right as my alk, cal, mag are always on point due to dosing several times a week. Right now I've slowed the flow through the reactor down to almost nothing, just enough to keep some flow going through the reactor. I'm gonna start feeding a little on the heavy side and see if I can bring these colors back. The phosphate concentration was measured using a Milwaukee low range photometer, which is measuring 0.00 ppm, take into consideration the 0.04 ppm accuracy and the fact that I'm sure there is some level of phosphate in the aquarium that my meter just isn't able to detect. I normally would get a reading of 0.03ppm -0.06 ppm. Hope this is helpful to someone
 
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I have had my tank between 0-2.5 ppm. When there are measurable nitrates in the water column, my corals look better. Long standing cyano disappeared once nitrates have hit over 1 ppm. I am happy with the coloration of my corals at this level.

FWIW, my other water parameters are as follows:

KH = ~7 dKH
Ca = ~ 410 ppm
PO4 = 0.024 mg/l (Elos High Sensitivity)
Mg = ~ 1320 ppm
Sg = ~ 34.5 ppt
Temp = 27-28C

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I've been trying to go in the opposite direction but I've recently come across several threads about keeping higher nitrates.

My current parameters seem to be what is being considered a good target for colors but I have been struggling with browning corals. I'll buy a nice colorful coral at my LFS and it'll turn dark and brown in a matter of days.

My NO3 is typically in the 2-5ppm range and my PO4 is 0-0.03 ppm.

I run Radion LEDs at 100% so I wouldn't think the browning is caused by a lack of light.

I have a heavy bio load with plenty of fish and I feed moderately. I run bio-pellets and GFO continuously. I don't have any algae growth in the DT but my sand and glass gets a bit of brownish algae after a couple of days.

As others have said, I always thought I was supposed to have zero NO3/PO4 and have a healthy amount of fish/waste to feed the corals, which is certainly a challenging balance to achieve.
 
I would have loved to read a topic like this 1-1,5 years ago...

At that time I thought that I have nutrient problems in my tank and played a lot with dosing nitrate, urea, ammonia, and phosphate. It is funny that at that time on Reefcentral I have found only 1-2 people talking about phosphate dosing and whoever I talked to thought that I'm completely crazy if I really do so.

Honestly sometimes nitrogen or phosphor dosing seemed to solved issues but - in my case - never for the long run. So I started reading scientific papers about marine biology, and SPS corals.

Here are some findings:
- NO3 dosing distorts the natural nutrient cycle of the tank. NO3 is only a mid-step of the nitrogen cycle indicating the state of the nitrification. If you "naturally" want more NO3 you need more ammonia or urea in the system (That is why more fish helps)
- SPS corals can not use NO3. The way how SPS consumes inorganic nutrient is via Zooxhantella and the preferred form is ammonia or urea. But inorganic nutrient is not enough for SPS, and it only feeds Zooxhantella (it can lead to browning) even though Zoochantella supply the coral with sugar at the end, this sugar do not enough alone. So NO3 will not make SPS much happier.
- NO3 is good food for bacteria. Most tanks run out of nitrogen faster than phosphorus that is why NO3 dosing helps to lower PO4 as long as the primary nutrient export is bacterial like Zoevit, pellet, vodka, etc. But these systems need additional organic carbon dosing as well since the limiting nutrient for bacteria is the carbon and not the nitrogen.
- In nitrogen limited aquarium if you start dosing any inorganic nitrogen of phosphorus there is a high chance that it will lead to cyano. Cyano is a super-survivor so that it adopts faster to new food sources than other bacteria.
- PO4 does not make SPS corals brown. Ammonia + PO4 does. Why is this interesting? At the natural coral reefs PO4 is around 0,01-0,03 - this is in line with the values we try to achieve in a tank - but this PO4 value is never paired with 5-10 NO3 at the coral reef which would be an indicator of an extremely high ammonia load (That is why chasing Redfield makes no sense here!). At the coral reef both ammonia and NO3 levels are very low. NO3 is around 0,01!!

So what did I learn?
I learned that my nutrient problems - or the symptoms that it made - are not real nutrient problems. My Kh-Ca-Mg and even salinity (which is forgotten by lot of people, due to the inaccuracy of the cheap Chinese refractometers) were always rock steady, so my attention went from nutrient to trace elements. Today - thanks to Ehsan Dashti at Triton - we finally see what we have in our water.

The lower the nitrogen level is the more crucial some traces will become. There is very little scientific knowledge available about the role of each trace elements but since I keep them close to NSW and stable I have no issues even though my NO3 and PO4 are non measurable. And you can not say such stupidity like "I dosed "this and that" for 6 month and I did not see any significant difference, so I think "this and that" is not needed for SPS tanks" As far as I consider now the importance of manganese, zinc and iodine are underestimated...
 
I would have loved to read a topic like this 1-1,5 years ago...

At that time I thought that I have nutrient problems in my tank and played a lot with dosing nitrate, urea, ammonia, and phosphate. It is funny that at that time on Reefcentral I have found only 1-2 people talking about phosphate dosing and whoever I talked to thought that I'm completely crazy if I really do so.

Honestly sometimes nitrogen or phosphor dosing seemed to solved issues but - in my case - never for the long run. So I started reading scientific papers about marine biology, and SPS corals.

Here are some findings:
- NO3 dosing distorts the natural nutrient cycle of the tank. NO3 is only a mid-step of the nitrogen cycle indicating the state of the nitrification. If you "naturally" want more NO3 you need more ammonia or urea in the system (That is why more fish helps)
- SPS corals can not use NO3. The way how SPS consumes inorganic nutrient is via Zooxhantella and the preferred form is ammonia or urea. But inorganic nutrient is not enough for SPS, and it only feeds Zooxhantella (it can lead to browning) even though Zoochantella supply the coral with sugar at the end, this sugar do not enough alone. So NO3 will not make SPS much happier.
- NO3 is good food for bacteria. Most tanks run out of nitrogen faster than phosphorus that is why NO3 dosing helps to lower PO4 as long as the primary nutrient export is bacterial like Zoevit, pellet, vodka, etc. But these systems need additional organic carbon dosing as well since the limiting nutrient for bacteria is the carbon and not the nitrogen.
- In nitrogen limited aquarium if you start dosing any inorganic nitrogen of phosphorus there is a high chance that it will lead to cyano. Cyano is a super-survivor so that it adopts faster to new food sources than other bacteria.
- PO4 does not make SPS corals brown. Ammonia + PO4 does. Why is this interesting? At the natural coral reefs PO4 is around 0,01-0,03 - this is in line with the values we try to achieve in a tank - but this PO4 value is never paired with 5-10 NO3 at the coral reef which would be an indicator of an extremely high ammonia load (That is why chasing Redfield makes no sense here!). At the coral reef both ammonia and NO3 levels are very low. NO3 is around 0,01!!

So what did I learn?
I learned that my nutrient problems - or the symptoms that it made - are not real nutrient problems. My Kh-Ca-Mg and even salinity (which is forgotten by lot of people, due to the inaccuracy of the cheap Chinese refractometers) were always rock steady, so my attention went from nutrient to trace elements. Today - thanks to Ehsan Dashti at Triton - we finally see what we have in our water.

The lower the nitrogen level is the more crucial some traces will become. There is very little scientific knowledge available about the role of each trace elements but since I keep them close to NSW and stable I have no issues even though my NO3 and PO4 are non measurable. And you can not say such stupidity like "I dosed "this and that" for 6 month and I did not see any significant difference, so I think "this and that" is not needed for SPS tanks" As far as I consider now the importance of manganese, zinc and iodine are underestimated...
Great post! Right now my tank have nitrate at 25pm and 0,02 phosphate and I have great colours in SPS... I think the fact that Im dosing Manganese, Potassium and Seachem Reef Trace (witch have Vanidium, zinc, etc) it helps alot.

Enviado do meu GT-I9301I através de Tapatalk
 
I would have loved to read a topic like this 1-1,5 years ago...

At that time I thought that I have nutrient problems in my tank and played a lot with dosing nitrate, urea, ammonia, and phosphate. It is funny that at that time on Reefcentral I have found only 1-2 people talking about phosphate dosing and whoever I talked to thought that I'm completely crazy if I really do so.

Honestly sometimes nitrogen or phosphor dosing seemed to solved issues but - in my case - never for the long run. So I started reading scientific papers about marine biology, and SPS corals.

Here are some findings:
- NO3 dosing distorts the natural nutrient cycle of the tank. NO3 is only a mid-step of the nitrogen cycle indicating the state of the nitrification. If you "naturally" want more NO3 you need more ammonia or urea in the system (That is why more fish helps)
- SPS corals can not use NO3. The way how SPS consumes inorganic nutrient is via Zooxhantella and the preferred form is ammonia or urea. But inorganic nutrient is not enough for SPS, and it only feeds Zooxhantella (it can lead to browning) even though Zoochantella supply the coral with sugar at the end, this sugar do not enough alone. So NO3 will not make SPS much happier.
- NO3 is good food for bacteria. Most tanks run out of nitrogen faster than phosphorus that is why NO3 dosing helps to lower PO4 as long as the primary nutrient export is bacterial like Zoevit, pellet, vodka, etc. But these systems need additional organic carbon dosing as well since the limiting nutrient for bacteria is the carbon and not the nitrogen.
- In nitrogen limited aquarium if you start dosing any inorganic nitrogen of phosphorus there is a high chance that it will lead to cyano. Cyano is a super-survivor so that it adopts faster to new food sources than other bacteria.
- PO4 does not make SPS corals brown. Ammonia + PO4 does. Why is this interesting? At the natural coral reefs PO4 is around 0,01-0,03 - this is in line with the values we try to achieve in a tank - but this PO4 value is never paired with 5-10 NO3 at the coral reef which would be an indicator of an extremely high ammonia load (That is why chasing Redfield makes no sense here!). At the coral reef both ammonia and NO3 levels are very low. NO3 is around 0,01!!

So what did I learn?
I learned that my nutrient problems - or the symptoms that it made - are not real nutrient problems. My Kh-Ca-Mg and even salinity (which is forgotten by lot of people, due to the inaccuracy of the cheap Chinese refractometers) were always rock steady, so my attention went from nutrient to trace elements. Today - thanks to Ehsan Dashti at Triton - we finally see what we have in our water.

The lower the nitrogen level is the more crucial some traces will become. There is very little scientific knowledge available about the role of each trace elements but since I keep them close to NSW and stable I have no issues even though my NO3 and PO4 are non measurable. And you can not say such stupidity like "I dosed "this and that" for 6 month and I did not see any significant difference, so I think "this and that" is not needed for SPS tanks" As far as I consider now the importance of manganese, zinc and iodine are underestimated...

This is very interesting statement in regards of SPS doesn't use NO3 directly. it would be much more effective if you post some of the references and finding are based on. can you please tell us how much nitrogen have you dosed and for how long..
I am using algea scrubber witch is very effective on removing nutrients.
What i noticed that my red acros got really pale whem No3 was at 5ppm and PO4 -0.01. Last night i start dosing Nitrates , cut down on scrubber photo period to get to my target witch is : NO3-10ppm and PO4-0.02-0.04


mike
 
All along, I've been trying to get rid of my 5-10ppm of NO3 and 0.03ppm of PO4, thinking that was the cause of not having vibrant and intense colors, but rather brownish colors in some corals. Now it seems that's not it... Back to the drawing board, I guess, to figure out what's really the root cause.
 
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There is one theory how NO3 can feed SPS, but I'm not a big believer of this. Studies revealed that SPS "very likely" consumes bacteria via its mucus layer. The theory says that SPS opens up at night not to capture live placton but to increase the size of its contact layer. If this theory is true than NO3 + organic carbon dosing can increase the bacterial population of the tank, and if there is any way how these bacteria can freely float (organic detritus blown by the current) it may work. BTW Zeovit claims the same, that is why they ask you to shake the filter, but it is less discussed that the main reason to do so is NOT to feed the corals but to keep the pores of the zeolit opened so that its NH4 binding capacity is maintained.

So here are some interesting studies to read:

About how NO3 is goof for Zooxanthellae alone:

Nitrate increases zooxanthellae population density and reduces skeletogenesis in corals
http://mgg.rsmas.miami.edu/groups/bio/20070202114319668.pdf

About how NH4 is even better for Zooxanthellae:

The population dynamics of symbiotic zooxanthellae in the coral Pocillopora damicornis exposed to elevated ammonium (NH4Cl) concentrations.
http://hl-128-171-57-22.library.manoa.hawaii.edu/bitstream/10125/2235/1/v48n3-263-272.pdf

About how NO3 and NH4 makes coral brown and how PO4+NO3 or PO4+NH4 makes them even more while PO4 alone not:

The Effect of External Nutrient Resources on the Population Dynamics of Zooxanthellae in a Reef Coral
https://www.researchgate.net/public...ion_Dynamics_of_Zooxanthellae_in_a_Reef_Coral

And a recent one about how inorganic nutrient are not enough:

Feature Study: Corals as the ultimate vegans?
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2016/6/aafeature
 
Hi don't know if this is a stupid question or not. But carbon is the most extensively used element in the our reef tanks, why do we not test for it? Is it not possible to test for it? Could it be an area that has great importance but does not get mentioned very much?
Great thread!!
Thanks justin
 
I would have loved to read a topic like this 1-1,5 years ago...

At that time I thought that I have nutrient problems in my tank and played a lot with dosing nitrate, urea, ammonia, and phosphate. It is funny that at that time on Reefcentral I have found only 1-2 people talking about phosphate dosing and whoever I talked to thought that I'm completely crazy if I really do so.

Honestly sometimes nitrogen or phosphor dosing seemed to solved issues but - in my case - never for the long run. So I started reading scientific papers about marine biology, and SPS corals.

I appreciate your thoughts but I'd really like to see some references.

Freshwater plants are known to prefer ammonia to nitrate but can use both. I'm also not sure how one can say the tank balance will be thrown off by adding nitrate rather than adding more fish. Certainly more fish will produce more ammonia but the end unused product is still nitrate which the tank will have to consume or convert.

Perhaps the mistake with dosing nitrate is simply adding too much. When I dose nitrate I continue to dose trace elements or do regular water changes so I'm not sure how an imbalance can happen. These are just my opinions though.
 
Markalot, this forum engine tricks me. I only see my answers when I'm signed in... but not from my phone and neither now when I'm answering you. So here I come again with some extras:

1. Zooxanthellae can use both NO3 and NH4 but prefers the last one. But feeding the Zooxanthellae does not make the coral happier. You will find the references below.

2. Adding NO3 will not crash the tank balance just distort it. NO3 feeds certain animals while NH4 some others. Under normal circumstances these animals are in competition. Dosing NO3 alone gives advantages to some - which may be a problem. Nature always has a strong reason to do things in order.

3. There is one theory how NO3 can feed SPS, but I'm not a big believer of this. Studies revealed that SPS "very likely" consumes bacteria via its mucus layer. The theory says that SPS opens up at night not to capture live placton but to increase the size of the contact layer. If this theory is true than NO3 + organic carbon dosing can increase the bacterial population of the tank, and if there is any way how these bacteria can freely float (organic detritus blown by the current) it may work. BTW Zeovit claims the same, that is why they ask you to shake the filter, but it is less discussed that the main reason to do so is NOT to feed the corals but to keep the pores of the zeolit opened so that its NH4 binding capacity is maintained.

So here are some interesting studies to read:

About how NO3 is goof for Zooxanthellae alone:

Nitrate increases zooxanthellae population density and reduces skeletogenesis in corals
http://mgg.rsmas.miami.edu/groups/bio/20070202114319668.pdf

About how NH4 is even better for Zooxanthellae:

The population dynamics of symbiotic zooxanthellae in the coral Pocillopora damicornis exposed to elevated ammonium (NH4Cl) concentrations.
http://hl-128-171-57-22.library.manoa.hawaii.edu/bitstream/10125/2235/1/v48n3-263-272.pdf

About how NO3 and NH4 makes coral brown and how PO4+NO3 or PO4+NH4 makes them even more while PO4 alone not:

The Effect of External Nutrient Resources on the Population Dynamics of Zooxanthellae in a Reef Coral
https://www.researchgate.net/public...ion_Dynamics_of_Zooxanthellae_in_a_Reef_Coral

And a recent one about how inorganic nutrient are not enough:

Feature Study: Corals as the ultimate vegans?
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2016/6/aafeature
 
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