Where to draw the line?

[Mr31415]

The skimmer is not a huge problem - it was part of a bigger problem that only drastic redesigning of the stand could have resolved, that is why I decided to take a bit bigger one and build a cabinet for it. It was at that stage not the biggest issue in the world so I compromised. The issue came when I had to start compromising on a daily basis - hence my frustration.

Canopy - the problem is that I cannot put my arm in the tank and move live rock around / do general maintenance since the canopy effectively adds about 100mm to the tank's height. I cannot easily remove it since you need three people and everytime you do that it scratches. All in all - they knew I wanted to have the tank standing right there but did not spend enough time considering these kind of issues to ensure the final product would be *practical* in my house.

I guess I could ask to return the tank and cabinet/canopy... It is just not so trivial - rebuilding that tank is a major undertaking.

 

[ralphie16]

You havent even asked for a refund yet? There is no point in talking about going to court and everything if you havent even talked to them yet to return the tank. That would be your first step. No the tank is not ok, it will leak over time, and you should get 100% of your money back. If they say no, then you take them to court. do not let them build another tank because they already messed up two.

 

[jbeltmann]

I agree with what Dave said. How would they feel about losing all of your business? I know I would be very unhappy about losing a whale. I know you have a relationship with the manager but I wouldn't even bother dealing with the manager, go straight to the top. If the owner gives you a hard time about making it right then cut your losses and move on. Besides livestock, what is stopping you from getting equipment online? LFS do play an important role in your success but their customer service needs to validate their increased prices. I don't think this company will be winning any JD Power Assoc. awards in the customer service area anytime soon! LOL

Best of luck in the future.

 

[Mr31415]

ralphie16 - Busy doing that now. I just had to get confirmation that I have grounds to ask for refund. I now believe I do.

jbeltmann - I guess my fear is that I'd like to set the relationship straight but I do NOT want another tank from then. If I ask for a refund then it is not a good path for fixing the relationship, if I don't like ralphie said - they will just botch it up again.

Maybe a compromise would be to get the proper specs from people here on ReefCentral for that tank's dimensions, and then have them build it to those specs. Their work is generally not bad but I think they are trying to cut corners trying to have good prices. If only they knew I'd gladly pay 15% more for the tank if it means a thicker base and guaranteed not to break.

 

[Mr31415]

"Besides livestock, what is stopping you from getting equipment online? "

We have no online shops in South Africa. I guess nothing stops me from importing from USA/Germany, the only risk would be what to do with the product's guarantee?

 

[HBtank]

No, the tank is not "ok". It started cracking right after you filled it. And it was the replacement for a tank that already broke.

Its the equivalent of buying a car that and the wheel coming off the first day, causing you to get in an accident, and then having the auto. company give you another car with a wheel that wobbles and saying you will be "ok"... Yeh right.

I would find someone else to deal with and walk away from them. Someone who would feel fine taking chances with that huge of a hazard and investment is not someone I want to deal with on anything. Get a refund for the tank and find another builder etc..

As for the other issues (canopy, sump etc..), well they are just crappy builders and you did not give specs, so that will be on your dime to correct.

As for keeping a relationship.. Well I would not want anything from them anyways, except maybe livestock since you do not have many LFS. It's not like they will ban you from their shop, will they? Why cares if a bunch of jerks (yes I consider someone who chances 400 gallons spilling into my house and the hazards associated, jerks) "like" you you or not, buy your fish and give them the finger as you drive away.. lol.

 

[plandy]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10074127#post10074127 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Mr31415
the only risk would be what to do with the product's guarantee?

That's easy to answer. With all that money you've spent with this questionable dealer it did not guarantee you decent customer service you truly deserved. With two cracked tanks in a row you might as well go independent.
Again, If I were a dealer and you spent that kind of money on my business I'd ask you how high you'd want me to jump when you needed it.

 

[HBtank]

double post

 

[HBtank]

^^^ Exactly. I can only imagine all the costs of a 400 gallon tanks, and who knows what else in the future.

They are going to lose 10's of thousands of dollars in sales

 

[Mr31415]

HBtank - I like your view on things...

plandy - and all the rest of you whole took your time responding to my little nightmare, thanks very much.

Based on all that was said, based on my own experience in the kind of people I am dealing with (and that I am only a small whale to them since they have guys with much larger tanks), I think it would be the "best" choice to go to the owner, explain my unhappiness, that since I cannot trust the tank I want a refund on the tank, stand and canopy (but I will keep the other equipment like the skimmer, chiller etc as they are fine and I need them anyway).

Then in the future buy my livestock from them, but all equipment I will order online and just take the chance with guarantees. I will visit the tank builder I mentioned and some of his customers and get feedback as to the quality of work he does. If I am convinced his work is good enough I will ask him to build me a new tank to my exact specifications and before I give him the go-ahead I will get confirmation here that everyone (that has experience in tank construction) feel comfortable with the way the tank is going to be built (glass thickness, stand construction etc.).

 

[REV]

It should be pretty clear to you that advice from those who do no quite understand the culture or the way things get done there (SA) is limited. Please, first consider that Americans in general are the most impatient people in the world. I applaud your tact in trying to resolve things. I'm just sorry that you may end up losing so much money. I hope the "LFS" owner will treat you right and try to keep your business.


Xikwembu a xi mi katakise. (Shangaan)

 

[Mr31415]

(Obviously the consequences of me taking my business elsewhere is based ont he assumption that they do not change their attitude).

 

[HBtank]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10074338#post10074338 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by REV
It should be pretty clear to you that advice from those who do no quite understand the culture or the way things get done there (SA) is limited. Please, first consider that Americans in general are the most impatient people in the world. I applaud your tact in trying to resolve things. I'm just sorry that you may end up losing so much money. I hope the "LFS" owner will treat you right and try to keep your business.


Xikwembu a xi mi katakise. (Shangaan)

Who here has mentioned anything about time?

This is about quality of work and customer service. If the lack of these are "the culture and the way things get done" in SA, then so be it. It does not make it right, and the fact some may not know that this is the norm does not make them "impatient" (that word makes no sense in the context of this thread)

Why you felt the need to take a general swipe at Americans and give the green light on poor craftsmanship and actually say it represents your "culture" is beyond me.

 

[REV]

I'm sorry, I did not mean to strike a nerve. MR31415 spoke earlier of waiting a long time, runaround notwithstanding, waiting on a piece of equipment. "Just sue 'em!" This idea that has been shared again and again to me says people aren't even willing to try to work something out, just take 'em to court! I'm sorry for seeing that as an impatient - my nicest descriptor for this attitude - approach. Any American that does not think they are impatient is the exception or self-diluted. I wasn't trying to take a general swipe at Americans. By the way, I AM AN AMERICAN! BORN AND RAISED.

My intent was to encourage Mr31415. It seems to me his approach is not some rash reaction, which is basically what many of these posts are. I REALLY did not intend to commit treason or even be controversial. Apologies.

 

[Mr31415]

What REV said has truth in it. Here at the south tip of Africa one of the last things we think of is suing. It just is not the same as over the big pond of water. I am not saying you are right or wrong, it is just different.

The last idea I ever had was that of suing - it is not my style. Much rather I'd like to get this issue resolved without reverting to legal action.

I'd rather spend R14k out of my own pocket and have a new tank built than spend R50k in legal costs - they are MUCH bigger than I am and I have no chance. You do not know the legal system down here...

But my intention was to hear people's opinions. Suing is one opinion.

 

[Mr31415]

"This is about quality of work and customer service. If the lack of these are "the culture and the way things get done" in SA, then so be it."

I think there are people here who can outcompete the best in any other country. The problem is however is a select couple of individuals making wrong decisions. Another problem is cost of importing - a problem I don't think USA has. This has the effect that you just do not find 1" glass here - thickest is 19mm and even that is rare. So people stack up lots of 10mm glass panels. And I am sure acrylic is not 4.5 times the price of glass over there...

The problem is people here assume you always want the cheapest price. Like I said before - I'd much rather spend an extra couple hundred bucks and have it done properly than cheaply. This is where the mentality of people in this country seem to be lacking - and I just don't get it.

And btw - if you want to know what is going to be ridiculously expensive is to ship a pre-built tank here...

 

[dwd5813]

a couple of things came to mind while reading your thread.
1. if i spent 25k in a year at a place, i wouldnt accept a pen that had blue ink when i wanted black, let alone a huge tank that cracked as soon as i put water in it. and if it was the second tank, such as in this case, i would settle for nothing short of a complete refund of everything i paid for the tank, and take my business elsewhere. i understand your situation being that competitors to this store, and therefore options for you, are limited, but honestly, i would rather not have that dream tank than have a version that is defective. any crack in your aquarium is bad news, and completely unacceptable, in my opinion.
2. regarding tank construction, you mentioned concentric circles when talking about the drilling. am i understanding correctly that this tank is made from multiple panes of glass sandwiched together to make the proper thickness? if so, this is unlike any construction i have ever heard of, and i would be interested to know if it is possible for you to locate a builder or locate material that would allow for a single pane construction, as it seems to me that this would be a much more stable design. you mentioned knowing another builder, and i would think that looking to this person is a good idea, after you deal with the original builder who has built you two faulty tanks.
3. regarding your other equipment, i agree with HB completely.



i am not familiar at all with what the norms are in SA, and i wont pretend to think that everything should be like it is in the US all over the world. however, i will say that since you asked "where do i draw the line?" i would draw it here. if it were me, i would approach the owner of the store, explain what has happened, express my frustration, and request that i be refunded my money so that i may seek another builder for my tank. it certainly sounds like this has been a good place to purchase other things, and i would remind the owner of the amount of money you have spent there. you said in one post "if only they knew i would gladly pay 15% more for the tank if it means a thicker base and guaranteed not to break" i would ask the owner if cost was responsible for this particular design, and possibly discuss cost of another design. im not into suing people either, but.....its a viable last resort in my opinion.

i wish you good luck with this, and i hope that the shop owner can see what a valuable customer he or she has in you, and takes care of you properly.

 

[Mr31415]

Thanks dwd5813...

 

[honda2sk]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10074655#post10074655 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by REV
I'm sorry, I did not mean to strike a nerve. MR31415 spoke earlier of waiting a long time, runaround notwithstanding, waiting on a piece of equipment. "Just sue 'em!" This idea that has been shared again and again to me says people aren't even willing to try to work something out, just take 'em to court! I'm sorry for seeing that as an impatient - my nicest descriptor for this attitude - approach. Any American that does not think they are impatient is the exception or self-diluted. I wasn't trying to take a general swipe at Americans. By the way, I AM AN AMERICAN! BORN AND RAISED.

My intent was to encourage Mr31415. It seems to me his approach is not some rash reaction, which is basically what many of these posts are. I REALLY did not intend to commit treason or even be controversial. Apologies.

You apparently do not see the difference between being a pushover and being impatient. If you read the thread carefully you will realize that he was being taken advantage of and the owner said the crack was no problem.

Therefore legal action is the only route left.

You sir seem like an *******.

 

[REV]

That is very helpful.