White Bonnet Clown and her harem video

[Reefvette]

The Harem
Ive had the White Bonnet female for over a year and shes been living with her orange skunk mate. They have hosted everything but the one they love most is the mertens carpet.

About 6 months ago i saw a juvi white tail blue stripe for sale and purchased it from a well known online dealer. I left the blue stripe in a breeder cage in the tank for two weeks and niether the bonnet or her mate payed any attention.

On the second weeks end i placed a sebea anemone in the tank and added the blue stripe. The large bonnet had no interest but the small orange skunk moved took some. The Blue stripe became submissive to the orange skunk and then to the bonnet.

The sebea perished and i need another anemone as they were all crowding the mertens. I saw some tiny orange skunk hosting a mag in a LFS and bought it not realizing the was a tiny skunk in it. I sold that and got a another sebea.

Since introduction the have a pecking order
1. White bonnet choose which anemone she sleeps
2. Large orange only lives in the mertens
3. The Blue stripe lives in both and only sleeps in the Sebea
4. Small orange skunk only lives in the mertens

This video is the am after the bonnet slept in the sebea and when lights went on she went to the mertens.You can see the blue stripe at the sebea

 

[Sugar Magnolia]

How big is this tank? I imagine there will be some aggression issues before too long.

 

[Reefvette]

45 Cube

45 Cube

They dont fight over anemones they all are submissive to the female bonnet and the orange skunk.

They are the only residents in the tank with a hippo tang.

Its been six months and no one has been attacked or bullyed. I would have thought so too but they all sleep together and have no aggression cause the two small fish are juvenile.

 

[Sugar Magnolia]

Once they fully mature you WILL have aggression issues with that many clowns, let alone different species of clowns in that tank. Especially the size of the tank. Also, a 45g cube is in no way a proper environment for a hippo tang. They grow very fast and get very large and require very large reef tanks. Have a look at this - http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1946079

I really think you should reconsider your stocking in that tank.

 

[Reefvette]

Thank you for your input

Thank you for your input

Sugar the two small clowns will never mature in the tank unless the larger female bonnet dies or the large orange skunk. They are stuck behind the other two clowns to stay small and unmature. Essentially i have one female and three males.

When clowns live in an anemone in the wild there is a large female a mature male and the rest are unmatured fish. Yes if one of the fish matures there will be aggression or they leave the anemone for another. Since i have provided more then one anemone they dont show agreession.

These fish contrary to what people think clowns dont live exclusively in pairs in the wild they mostly live in groups. They breed in pairs. There has been documentation and photos of clowns living in groups where a pair is present and smaller juveniles living amongst them. Some retailers now have even been collected clowns that have been living in groups or harems.



I realize about the hippo tang and dont plan on keeping it much longer. Im acutally redoing the tank.

 

[deangelr]

Sugar the two small clowns will never mature in the tank unless the larger female bonnet dies or the large orange skunk. They are stuck behind the other two clowns to stay small and unmature. Essentially i have one female and three males.

When clowns live in an anemone in the wild there is a large female a mature male and the rest are unmatured fish. Yes if one of the fish matures there will be aggression or they leave the anemone for another. Since i have provided more then one anemone they dont show agreession.

These fish contrary to what people think clowns dont live exclusively in pairs in the wild they mostly live in groups. They breed in pairs. There has been documentation and photos of clowns living in groups where a pair is present and smaller juveniles living amongst them. Some retailers now have even been collected clowns that have been living in groups or harems.



I realize about the hippo tang and dont plan on keeping it much longer. Im acutally redoing the tank.

Very cool video.
You obviously have some experience with clowns and anemones.... I am not claiming to know anything you already dont..

But I agree with what has been said.. That sure seems like a lot going on in a 45 cube.. Mertensi anemones are the largets of all carpets and probably need a much larger aquarium.

Also, I think it is a very dangerous assumption to assume that because something occurs in the ocean it can be replicated in captivity of vis versa.

 

[Reefvette]

The whole goal of a fish tank in my opinion is to accurately replicate the wild I get your point.

 

[deangelr]

The whole goal of a fish tank in my opinion is to accurately replicate the wild I get your point.

Not trying to give any attitude here..

Just good reef conversation.. :rollface:

If your goal is to set up a fish tank that is accurately repicating the environement then you should be open to discussions..


How long have you had everything set up as is?

 

[phender]

Once they fully mature you WILL have aggression issues with that many clowns, let alone different species of clowns in that tank........

The white bonnet clown is not a different species of clown, it is a hybrid of a Blue stripe (chrysopterus) and a orange skunk (sandaracinos). It is very common in nature to find white bonnets sharing their anemone with other species of clowns. In fact, in two studies that I have seen, it is actually more common for a white bonnet to be paired with a chrysopterus or sandaracinos than with another white bonnet.
I am not saying that this situation will absolutely work out long term, but that this is not your standard situation.
That being said, I have twice had chrysopterus/sandaracinos pairs that worked out short term (over a year), but did not last long term. Neither produced any eggs.
Keep an eye on them. I think having 4 is probably better than 3 as it distributes any aggression that might occur.

 

[deangelr]

"Even though we now have good evidence that the White-bonnet is a hybrid a strong argument can be made that it is actually a valid species resulting from the hybridization phenomenon."

But this argument falls flat in that why then do we only see Leuc's where both parental species are present?


anyway 4 clownfish in a 45 gallon tank seems like a lot...

 

[phender]

"Even though we now have good evidence that the White-bonnet is a hybrid a strong argument can be made that it is actually a valid species resulting from the hybridization phenomenon."

Can I ask the source of this quote? (Never mind, I Googled the quote and found it was from Gerald Allen, probably the worlds #1 authority on damsels and clownfish. I still don't get the logic though)

For it to be a species, it would have to at least breed true. In the two examples of captive raised white bonnets I have seen, only a very small percentage of the offspring actually looked like the parents. If they were dogs, they wouldn't even meet the requirement for a breed much less a species.
Since they don't breed exclusively with each other in nature, I don't know how you could argue that they could be a valid species.

I think a better argument could be made that all clowns are actually just different races within the same species. Maybe there is DNA evidence to the contrary.

 

[Reefvette]

?

?

What do u mean by when both parents are present.

I am not aware of anyone who has succesfull raised raised leucokranos fry.

Bruce Carlson wrote a article where he chronicles the different markings of leucokranos. There were many variations of a luecokranos.

Two years ago i purchased one of these oddities from Blue zoo and it showed up DOA.

No attitude deanglr. I didntget to finish typing. I love discussion thats why i posted it.

The tang is not long term. These are the only fish in the cube. nothing else two anemones and live rock.

I am trying to create a breeding pair of fish the female has her choice of mates.

In the same article he also said there were more then often not found with two luecokranos. but mixed pairs.

If you breed two leucokranos together your going to get hodge podge mix. 25 percent look one way 25 the other and 50 that look like the parents.

It is well know to be blue stripe and orange skunk but no one can tell because no one has bred them like that.

The Whitebonnet and large orank skunk have been together for almost two years. i added the other fish when i added the mertens.

The bonnet is almost 5 inches
her mate skunk is 2
blue stripe 1.5
orange skunk 1.5

 

[phender]

I am not aware of anyone who has succesfull raised raised leucokranos fry.

Fernando Nostratpour at the Stephen Birch Aquarium in La Jolla, CA. Raised 9 clutches from a white bonnet pair starting in 1995. Unfortunately, they only were able to get less than a 10% survival rate. (Granted there weren't a lot of people raising clowns in those days, but their survival rates for melanopus were 40% and 80% for maroons.) There was a person on this board from the East Coast that tried to raised a couple clutches and then sold all his pairs. His success rate was similar.
Fernando wrote two articles in "Aquarium Frontiers" magazine in the mid to late 90's. In one of them he noted that of the 32 babies that survived, 28% were leucokranos type, 12.5% were chrysopterus type, 15% were sandaracinos type, 9% were perideraion type (had a cheek bar and a dorsal stripe) and 34% were intermediate in their markings. Some of the fish looked like the one that arrived to you DOA. I was lucky enough to see them in person, and those in the "intermediate" category were in general, not an attractive lot. I know that several of the leucokranos type babies were sent to the Waikiki Aquarium. I believe they may still have one on display.

I did a search. Ricordiaking was the name of the guy who raised some leuc babies. I even found one of the threads. Unfortunately the pictures are no longer linked.
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=922184&highlight=leucokranos

 

[mallorieGgator]

Cool tank and fish!

 

[deangelr]

"What do u mean by when both parents are present. ". I mean parent species are present.. I would think that if it is a true species it would somehow over time branch to an area only one or neither parent occured.. Maybe they are too genetically similar to each parent.. Maybe not enough time..

I agree this species doesn't pan out to what I personally would call a true species but it's a debate.


Thanks for the info phender

 

[MarinaP]

I raised fry from three clutches of leuks with very small percentage of survivors as well. Both parents are leuks, all surviving babies are leuks.

 

[Reefvette]

Variations

Variations

Marina did you see any variations in barring. Ive had a bunch of leucks no and none are the same.

This is the reason i set up the tank like this. My goal is to see which ones pair. I sold off a monster breeding pair of akinydnos to buy the huge lueco.

I wanna see what the blue stripelooking juvis look like.

 

[MarinaP]

There are variations in the headbar, but they are all within cap range. There is nothing from a skunk or a chrys.

The male has a broken bar, so the babies have broken bars too, but they all wear a hat (or two)