White spots...but not crypto?

[Borders Col]

Hi all,

Despite my lack of posts, I have been in the game a "few" years, but just had a two year vacation

So, the problem....I've just flipped the switch on a new 400g reef system and have the first two fish in quarantine-one bellus angel and a marginalis butterfly. They are feeding great and have been wormed also, but, the marginalis has had 3 white spots on it's tail since arrival. The bellus is clean and healthy. Having successfully treated crypto with hyposalinity in the past, I dropped the salinity to 12ppt and it's been there for the last 3 weeks. Parameters have been kept stable with water changes and the odd sprinkle of sodium carbonate to keep the pH up, BUT the marginalis still has those same 3 white spots on it's tail.

What elso can this be aside crypto? From what I understand of the life cycle, the trophont should be attached for between 3-7 days and occasionaly up to 10 days - it's been 21 days! The treatment used was Sterazin (a malachite green, piperazine, formaldehyde, acrifflavine hychloride blend) which should take care of gill and body flukes as well as internal worms.

Be grateful for any suggestions as to cause/treatment!!

Thanks
Col

 

[ackee]

I have no way of determining exactly what those white spots on your bf and angel are, and I'm not an expert regarding fish diseases. I've been keeping sw fishes with good success for a long time. I hesitate to be specific, but when I started there were no all-glass tanks and the nitrogen cycle was unknown.

There are any number of white spot symptoms that afflict aquarium fish. Lots of otherwise experienced and competent aquarists seem to think that 'spots' are always crypt or similar parasitic organisms, or that fungal problems are limited to two or three varieties. Frequently bacterial or fungal organisms form clusters that appear as white spots. Crypt has a fairly predictable life cycle and recognizable progression. If a disease does not reflect these elements, it may be something else, and not infrequently these problems resolve themselves without human intervention.

The appearance of spots, especially if they do not seem to be causing distress and are not spreading in a manner consistent with crypt, should not be immediately treated as if a crypt diagnosis were confirmed. Fish are subject to as wide a variety of diseases as humans are. We know far less about fish disease than we do about human disease, but it would be extremely arrogant and simplistic to think that fish diseases are limited to a small number of problems that can be treated with a handful of remedies. Sometimes things are best left untreated for a while, especially if there do not seem to be any dangerous symptoms.

 

[jhentr]

+1 above.

I've seen symptoms like that too on my Imp. angel. After treating with prazi, fw dip, and cupramine for 4 weeks, it was still present. I figured it my be fungal/bacteria so I left it alone as it wasn't spreading or disappearing. Once the fish was in the DT, the spots disappeared. I think we are (or at least me) little paranoid with ich and just want to be as careful as we can before introducing fishes (esp in a 400g).

 

[b0bab0ey]

Could be Lymphocystis. IME Butterflies are notorious for it. Sometimes it starts out as a small spot and gets bigger. It's also found on the tail quite often. Below is a pic of a Yellow Tang with Lympho on it's tail. If you think this is what it is, feed vitamin-enriched, nutritious foods (you can soak the food in garlic or Selcon) and keep your water quality impeccable. Lymphocystis is a virus that usually goes away on it's own if you provide the aforementioned things.

 

[Borders Col]

ackee and jhentr thanks for the info and your thoughts. I had pretty much ruled out crypt based on inconsistencies with the known life-cycle, but have no experience of what it may be.

The spots are only present on the butterfly and after 3 wk in QT, the angel does has no visibile signs of having contracted the same condition.

I appreciate you have no way of diagnosing the condition based on "it has 3x white spots" - just after others experience and actions (if any) if they have come across something similar.

My inclination now is to complete the hyposalinty course (another 6 days) and assuming no other sysmptoms, to then slowly bring up the salinity, and then hold for 2 wks before adding them to the DT. As jhentr mentioned "some" of us are a little paranoid about introducing crpyt, or any other disease for that matter in the first place I had a previous tank for 8 years that was disease free from day 1, until I finally "went on my 2 year vacation!!" I would like to keep things that way with this system. Love the hobby, but not trying to catch fish in an establised SPS reef!!

 

[snorvich]

Could be Lymphocystis. IME Butterflies are notorious for it. Sometimes it starts out as a small spot and gets bigger. It's also found on the tail quite often. Below is a pic of a Yellow Tang with Lympho on it's tail. If you think this is what it is, feed vitamin-enriched, nutritious foods (you can soak the food in garlic or Selcon) and keep your water quality impeccable. Lymphocystis is a virus that usually goes away on it's own if you provide the aforementioned things.

Agreed. Great picture by the way.

 

[snorvich]

ackee and jhentr thanks for the info and your thoughts. I had pretty much ruled out crypt based on inconsistencies with the known life-cycle, but have no experience of what it may be.

The spots are only present on the butterfly and after 3 wk in QT, the angel does has no visibile signs of having contracted the same condition.

I appreciate you have no way of diagnosing the condition based on "it has 3x white spots" - just after others experience and actions (if any) if they have come across something similar.

My inclination now is to complete the hyposalinty course (another 6 days) and assuming no other sysmptoms, to then slowly bring up the salinity, and then hold for 2 wks before adding them to the DT. As jhentr mentioned "some" of us are a little paranoid about introducing crpyt, or any other disease for that matter in the first place I had a previous tank for 8 years that was disease free from day 1, until I finally "went on my 2 year vacation!!" I would like to keep things that way with this system. Love the hobby, but not trying to catch fish in an establised SPS reef!!

One inference. It it were cryptocaryon irritans the life cycle would have dictated that those spots would have disappeared. I am inclined towards lymphocystis. Check picture above to see if they are similar.

 

[Borders Col]

Lympho..........not thought of that one! Thanks and 1+ on the great pic!!

Just done some reading o n this and apparantly it is initially often mistaken for crypto
Sometimes the infection simply disappears as jenthr mentioned, but it can also develop into a secondary bacterial infection (the cauliflower shaped lumps) and finally result in death. Suggested treatments include scraping off the nodules and treting the wound with disinfectant, OR cut off any infected parts !!!! Brushing iodine on the wound can also help.

Hmmmm............ minor surgery?!

 

[b0bab0ey]

Lympho..........not thought of that one! Thanks and 1+ on the great pic!!

Just done some reading o n this and apparantly it is initially often mistaken for crypto
Sometimes the infection simply disappears as jenthr mentioned, but it can also develop into a secondary bacterial infection (the cauliflower shaped lumps) and finally result in death. Suggested treatments include scraping off the nodules and treting the wound with disinfectant, OR cut off any infected parts !!!! Brushing iodine on the wound can also help.

Hmmmm............ minor surgery?!

I've tried that in the past with mixed results. Honestly, I would just let it be. Either the fish's immune system will beat it or it won't. Even if surgery is successful, the virus is still there. You would do better to do frequent WCs and feed vitamin enriched foods than do the surgery.

 

[snorvich]

+1 Mostly it will just go away

 

[Borders Col]

OK, thanks guys. A+ husbandry and let nature do the rest.

Thanks to all !!!

 

[sandwi54]

Lympho..........not thought of that one! Thanks and 1+ on the great pic!!

Just done some reading o n this and apparantly it is initially often mistaken for crypto
Sometimes the infection simply disappears as jenthr mentioned, but it can also develop into a secondary bacterial infection (the cauliflower shaped lumps) and finally result in death. Suggested treatments include scraping off the nodules and treting the wound with disinfectant, OR cut off any infected parts !!!! Brushing iodine on the wound can also help.

Hmmmm............ minor surgery?!

if you determine that it's lymph, don't worry much about it. it's very rarely fatal and goes away on its own almost all the time, provided that the water quality and diets are excellent. a few of my fish have developed it when they first came but all have recovered within weeks, and never had it again.

just make sure your water quality is good and feed them a variety of food within vitamin supplements. the fatal cases are almost always caused by bad husbandry.