Green Chromis
New member
:fish1: Hi, scientific papers or a book or two would be nice. thanks. :fish1:
Who runs the simplest system here?
- Thread starter Fourstars
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:fish1: Hi, scientific papers or a book or two would be nice. thanks. :fish1:
Fourstars
New member
I love 40B's and have a few set up. Bare bottom make life so much easier. Sounds like a very successful tank :beer:
Many people are calling their systems simple because they don't have a sump. I am afraid I cant agree with that definition of simple.
Without a sump, you are looking at your heater, skimmer, media reactors, etc. all the time. With all that extreme visual clutter, can we really call such a system simpler than a system with a basic sump, just because it has one fewer tank?
Many things in this hobby I consider unnecessary. But I cant imagine looking at a sumpless tank every day.
Without a sump, you are looking at your heater, skimmer, media reactors, etc. all the time. With all that extreme visual clutter, can we really call such a system simpler than a system with a basic sump, just because it has one fewer tank?
Many things in this hobby I consider unnecessary. But I cant imagine looking at a sumpless tank every day.
Diana A
Member
Not true. All of my intakes and heater are located in a overflow box that houses it. I purchased an overflow box and siliconed it to the aquarium when it was purchase.
eyesinthedrk
New member
Of all your energy consumption, your tank is very minimal compared to other luxuryies like heating , a/c, and refrigeration. In my case I have all the bells and whistles and the added power was less than a 10% increase.
Let's use the fridge as an example. You don't need one. You could stop on the way home every day, pick up the nights dinner and a bag of ice for drinks and keeping things cold. Same goes for a tank. The more it does on its own the less you need to do. That leaves more time to visit with your lovely daughter. Lie and tell her you only take cold showers to offset your tanks carbon foot print.
I have know it all kids too.
Let's use the fridge as an example. You don't need one. You could stop on the way home every day, pick up the nights dinner and a bag of ice for drinks and keeping things cold. Same goes for a tank. The more it does on its own the less you need to do. That leaves more time to visit with your lovely daughter. Lie and tell her you only take cold showers to offset your tanks carbon foot print.
I have know it all kids too.
Fourstars
New member
"œIn total, these data unequivocally demonstrate that the H&S skimmer is not required to deplete the aquarium water of TOC. Apparently, naturally biological processes are sufficient in and of themselves to return the post-feeding TOC levels to their pre-feeding values after about 4 hrs or so. "œ
More good reading. https://www.advancedaquarist.com/2008/8/aafeature3
More good reading. https://www.advancedaquarist.com/2008/8/aafeature3
Fourstars
New member
I think our kids think us adults have gone full retard. :hmm4: but there are many simple things one can do to offset the tank, replace all the bulbs with LED's, get rid of the mini fridge and keep food in the main freezer, don't run the heat downstairs mainly because plenty from the halide bulbs. Recycle, reuse and maintain what you have. Also frag what you have to stock your buddies tank! :celeb1::celeb1:
Green Chromis
New member
:fish1: Why do I want to get rid of my mini fridge in my outdoor BBQ area, and in my master bedroom suite Can I keep my built in beer kegerator or my icemaker in my BBQ area, or my freezer for my fish food and bait when I go fishing. I know one thing I will never get ride of, is my central A/C units, as it is way to hot and humid down here in South Florida from April to December. I am glad people are trying to reduce their carbon foot print, as I have changed out my M/H, VHO lighting to the LED Mitra LX 7206 lights, and purchased a new more efficient Mercury Outboard for my boat, so I am doing my part. :fish1:
Turtlesteve
New member
Scrubber_steve
I'm really very likeable
Apparently, naturally biological processes are sufficient in and of themselves to return the post-feeding TOC levels to their pre-feeding values after about 4 hrs or so. "œ
This is referring to the spike in toc/doc 6 to 9 hours after feeding, & then the take up of that spike by coral bacteria which returns the level of toc/doc to previous levels. He isn't suggesting the bacteria can control levels of toc/doc in general & do the job of GAC or skimming in a system that has an average fish population, (if that is what you were inferring?).
Fourstars
New member
“The somewhat subversive thesis that perhaps skimmers do not contribute much to TOC removal/water purification was raised in the discussion of Figs. 5 and 6; the exceedingly low TOC values in the skimmerless tank #2 provide further support for this notion. What then, distinguishes this tank from the other skimmerless tank, #3, which has exceedingly high TOC levels? Both tanks lack sandbeds and have similar fish loads and soft coral/invertebrate populations. The one identifiable difference in husbandry between them involves GAC; the low TOC tank (#2) uses GAC-based water filtration, whereas the high-TOC tank (#3) does not. Does GAC really make such a spectacular difference in TOC loads while at the same time protein skimmers scarcely have any effect at all? This question and related topics are currently under study, and results will be reported in the near future.”
https://www.advancedaquarist.com/2008/9/aafeature2
https://www.advancedaquarist.com/2008/9/aafeature2
Turtlesteve
New member
Yeah, but.... there's also no evidence that the DOC/TOC spike differs in composition from the baseline (he goes into great detail about how difficult this is to measure). Your counter-suggestion would imply such a difference.
You are correct that he doesn't directly claim that the bacteria can handle everything, as it wasn't tested in this article - but it's still a reasonable inference from his work. Consider some of the follow up work:
https://www.advancedaquarist.com/2009/1/aafeature2/
Taking all of this together, it is pretty certain to me that protein skimming is a minor, supplemental method of clearing DOC's. If bacterial activity in a skimmed tank processes 65-80% of the total system load (in DOC's), it's reasonable to infer that a modestly higher bacterial population could handle all of it.
Also, burden of proof should be the other way around. I'm amazed at how well stuff sells in this hobby just because someone uses it on a tank that happens to house high end SPS. I have a skimmerless tank and two working skimmers sitting on a shelf. I might use them again one day when I'm convinced I need one.
Steve
Scrubber_steve
I'm really very likeable
Feldman made the observation that systems that don't
purify the water via GAC &/or skimming have doc levels far higher than natural reefs, (so bacteria doesn't do the job!) & sensitive corals don't do well in systems that don't use GAC & or skimming because of this!
Turtlesteve
New member
I'm aware of one tank with no GAC/skimming that he sampled. Were there more sampled since? Even if the above were correct, he also tested a skimmerless tank with GAC and it was low DOC - so should we assume that GAC can functionally replace a skimmer? I don't necessarily believe this either.
I suspect that there are other important factors controlling DOC levels.
Steve
Scrubber_steve
I'm really very likeable
GAC removes up 80% of DOC compared to a skimmer at 35% max. I don't skim, just GAC.
But if carbon dosing, a skimmer is part of that inorganic filter method
For me simple was the only way I had success. I tried all the additives, kalk, you name it. Finally stopped all additives completely and have an 2 gal / day automatic water change from a tank in the basement I mix up in a large batch and I do run a skimmer. That is it. Growth has been great and going on 20 years the tank has been up and running. No hair or slime algae for years, only some bubble to contend with. Over the years I failed miserably when I tinkered and tried the latest and greatest additive or snake oil.
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Turtlesteve
New member
OK, I re-read through Feldman's articles on GAC and skimming - he stated that two unskimmed / no GAC tanks were tested and both were high in DOC. While not conclusive, I'll concede it seems likely that something more than biological filtration is needed to run low DOC.
For what it's worth I'm running GAC at the moment, but have not been all that consistent with it.
Steve
