Who runs the simplest system here?

. . . don’t you think it’s best to leave these organisms on the reef? . . .

I would point out we're creating an economic incentive for 3rd world people living on subsistance fishing to adopt sustainable practices to conserve thier environment. If we look at how reefs function, unsustainable fishing practices that remove sharks and large herbivores like parrotfish are destroying reefs very quickly, much faster than global warming is. Temple Grandin gave an excellent example of what happens when you remove economic incentives in her book "Animals Make Us Human" With good intentions one of the African countries outlawed big game ranches that maintained animals for hunters. Once the economic incentive was removed to conserve the animals and land it took only a few years for the population of large mammals to dwindle to a fraction of what they were when they could be hunted.
 
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I have a bare bottom, sumpless 40G with five fish and 3 medium size RBTA. Corals are softies and LPS. Two mp10s for flow, CBB for light, and an Tunze ATO. I took the skimmer and reactor off line about 2 yrs ago. 15-20% WC every 4-6 weeks. 2-part dosing by hand every 2-3 days.
 
Remind your daughter that the attendees of the last climate change conference flew there in their private jets. :eek2: :eek2:

That should make the hobby look downright green.
 
SPS do better and have better color without a skimmer on the tank. The current thought on running a reef is mainly driven by equipment manufactures to increase their bottom line. Of course, if your lazy, or insist on a large bio load and/or sand bottom, and/or avoid your tank maintenance then a skimmer is a must.

:fish1: Hi, where did you get your info from about protein skimmers and SPS corals? :fish1:
 
SPS do better and have better color without a skimmer on the tank. The current thought on running a reef is mainly driven by equipment manufactures to increase their bottom line. Of course, if your lazy, or insist on a large bio load and/or sand bottom, and/or avoid your tank maintenance then a skimmer is a must.

I find this statement bizarre.
 
It is! I must of been drunk when I wrote that. Interesting article about what is in skimmate on advanced aquarist by Ken S. Feldman. I struggled with one of my tanks, adding phosphate and nitrate every week till I finally just took the skimmer off line. The only export I'm using on that tank is cheatomorpha. Huge improvement in all coloration and not having to dose anymore.:beer:
 
It is! I must of been drunk when I wrote that. Interesting article about what is in skimmate on advanced aquarist by Ken S. Feldman. I struggled with one of my tanks, adding phosphate and nitrate every week till I finally just took the skimmer off line. The only export I'm using on that tank is cheatomorpha. Huge improvement in all coloration and not having to dose anymore.:beer:

Feldman also made the observation that sensitive coral like sps don't do well in systems that don't purify the water via skimming &/or GAC. In other words, high DOC is a problem for sensitive corals. Maybe you just keep softies?
 
No, it’s a mixed tank with SPS, bird nest, Acropora, millipora, Montipora. I’m in the process of setting up a SPS only tank and will try running it the same way. Only been running skimmerless for about six months, so we’ll see it I have issues and go back to skimming. I forgot to mention I do run carbon.

IMG_0213.jpg
 
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No, it's a mixed tank with SPS, bird nest, Acropora, millipora, Montipora. I'm in the process of setting up a SPS only tank and will try running it the same way. Only been running skimmerless for about six months, so we'll see it I have issues and go back to skimming.

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OK, so you don't skim or use GAC. How many fish are you feeding? Feeding fish = DOC.
Perhaps you have few fish, or do a lot of water changing to control DOC?

Or do you have a lot of fish, & do little in water changes, & you suggest that DOC build up is not a problem for sps in your tank?
 
Yes, few fish and 20% water change a month. My understanding is the main benefit for skimming is to remove DOC to keep them out of the nitrogen cycle thereby keeping down the Accumulation of nitrate. I’ve run this tank for two years with zero nitrate. I also broadcast feed twice a day reef roids live and frozen food.
 
Yes, few fish and 20% water change a month. My understanding is the main benefit for skimming is to remove DOC to keep them out of the nitrogen cycle thereby keeping down the Accumulation of nitrate. I've run this tank for two years with zero nitrate. I also broadcast feed twice a day reef roids live and frozen food.

with few fish & 20% water changes DOC/TOC is unlikely to be a problem.
Yes, skimmers remove some DOC before it mineralises, but is high DOC/TOC a problem despite reasonable nitrogen & phosphate levels?

From Feldman https://www.advancedaquarist.com/2011/3/aafeature

Not surprisingly, the tanks with "unpurified" water exhibited TOC levels greater than those seen with the skimmed/GAC-filtered tanks. The "purified" aquaria's TOC levels fall within the typical TOC range seen on authentic, healthy reefs (Feldman, 2008); the passively husbandry tanks were 2-3x higher.

The observation that, at least among this small set of aquaria examined, the water within the skimmed/filtered tanks had only ~ 1/10th of the population of bacteria that the unskimmed/unfiltered tanks had was a real surprise. It speaks to one aspect of aquarium husbandry in which a perhaps important parameter (?), water column bacteria counts from authentic and healthy reefs, is not reproduced at all effectively in these home aquaria.

Sensitive corals, like Acropora, do not thrive in the high-bacteria-count/high-TOC-level tanks examined, although soft corals do well (see pictures). On the other hand, SPS corals do well in the low-bacteria-count/low-TOC-level tanks (Fig. 6). These observations raise a number of questions, chief among them perhaps are, (1) "Do water column bacteria counts have any relevance to the short-term or long-term prospects for maintaining SPS in captive aquaria?", and (2) "What is the relationship between TOC and water column bacteria population?"
 
Thank you for this link, I missed this. I’ll have to reread this a few times, but I think I’ll not try running my new tank without a skimmer.
 
I have a 12g 'Mixed Reef' that has been running for over 10 years now with just a return pump, heater, thermometer and DIY ATO and LED lighting. I also ran a 55g for nearly 10 years this way...

IME, the maintenance routine is what makes or breaks these simple systems. Slacking off can be tolerated for a while by a very mature system, but the smaller it is, the faster it'll tend to deteriorate (eutrophication).

I read the Feldman articles a number of years ago and they do lead to some very interesting questions regarding TOC (DOC as a subset) in our captive systems. The other day I saw online that Triton (Ehsan) is attempting to bring to market a service that can determine the TOC level of your aquarium. If successful, we'll eventually have a large number of these tests from around the world that should lead to the determination of an acceptable TOC range for a particular type of reef aquarium.
 
The other day I saw online that Triton (Ehsan) is attempting to bring to market a service that can determine the TOC level of your aquarium. If successful, we'll eventually have a large number of these tests from around the world that should lead to the determination of an acceptable TOC range for a particular type of reef aquarium.

Looks like Triton now has DOC testing available :)
 
After re reading this a few times I found it a very limited study and inconclusive. I understand that carbon dosing increases bacterium that uptakes P and N and then is removed by mechnical means. But what if you already have no P and N? Also The study states that high bacteria is probiotic?

A "probiotic" can be defined as a live microbial adjunct that offers a benefit to animals, algae, plants, corals, or the ambient microbial community. This benefit can be assessed in terms of an improved use of food (i.e., enhanced nutritional value), enhanced disease resistance, or by improving the quality of the ambient environment (Verschuere et al., 2000). The introduction of live bacteria cultures into a marine aquarium may be viewed as a "probiotic" husbandry technique.

As far as high TOC being detrimental to Acropora, is there a study done to back this up, And has the shear volume of water that passing through a reef been accounted for?

At this point the skimmer stays off.
 
First off she’s an adult now. And it was an honest conversation between two adults. I did not help pay for her college so she could agree with all my decisions, nor to have the same values as me, but to be a freethinker. I know it’s a hard inconvenient discussion to have, but do try to keep up.
Wholeheartedly agree. If she were my daughter, I'd be proud. My set up is a bit on the extravagant side of things but try to be mindful with energy efficient equipment like LED's variable speed DC pumps etc. I justify my power usage and carbon footprint by the use of a 17kW PE system. Living in AZ it's almost a necessity to run A/C and that's an expense that made me sit down first time seeing my electric bill.

Having the system for over 2 years now, 100% of our electricity use comes from solar.

Water conservation is another aspect of it as well, and they do have DI filters that can remove all TDS and not have any rejection like RODI systems.

The other thing I would look at is waste, like bulbs, media, filter replacements etc, what is the longevity of your equipment and how can you reduce what end up in a landfill?

If it's carbon footprint that you're interested in, there are ways to have a nice tank without compromise and simply offset it with renewable resources.
 
After re reading this a few times I found it a very limited study and inconclusive. I understand that carbon dosing increases bacterium that uptakes P and N and then is removed by mechnical means. But what if you already have no P and N? Also The study states that high bacteria is probiotic?

True zero?
Or zero according to the test kit?
A happy tank with zero readings possibly means that things are being used up as fast as they are being produced. Given whatever system is in discussion will determine the reasons how it's possible. Ie...micro algae that tangs are consuming as it grows, or, a nano tank with coral density that acts as micro algae. Or, perhaps. The reverse. Maybe a large refugium with plenty of light...

True zero means death.
 
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