Who's dosing vodka? And why?
- Thread starter spleify
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Jerm77
New member
I started Vodka dosing 17 days after the start of my tank. My goal was to help my tank cycle with the addition of a carbon source to help reduce phosphates and nitrates. basically, I was trying to starve out the nutrients as soon as possible.
I continued the dosing till about day 60. I was up to about 2.3ml, where I then cut back to 1ml. my total water volume is about 90g. I did stop dosing for a couple of weeks after that. I was noticing some sludge growing everywhere - that was a visual sign for me to lay off on the dosing. I was doing nitrates tests frequently with a pinpoint nitrate meter, but in the end I couldn't trust the readings - I wasn't able to correctly calibrate the meter.
I have since picked up SPS corals and have been maintaining a .5ml dose. my last test showed 0 NO3 and 0 PO4. but, I don't believe all the nutrients are starved out. my tank still grows macro and micro algae, but the 0 nitrates(salifert test) with 2x day feeding is promising.
I have to add why I thought of carbon dosing so early in the startup of my tank. I have experience with beneficial bacteria for organic gardening. we brew our own mix of biological active microbial rich solution. this has proven very important in nutrient uptake for plants. we do use glucose (carbon source) to fuel the growth of our bacteria strains. I chose to use vodka for this application because someone already developed a dosing program and I seen it documented many times.
I continued the dosing till about day 60. I was up to about 2.3ml, where I then cut back to 1ml. my total water volume is about 90g. I did stop dosing for a couple of weeks after that. I was noticing some sludge growing everywhere - that was a visual sign for me to lay off on the dosing. I was doing nitrates tests frequently with a pinpoint nitrate meter, but in the end I couldn't trust the readings - I wasn't able to correctly calibrate the meter.
I have since picked up SPS corals and have been maintaining a .5ml dose. my last test showed 0 NO3 and 0 PO4. but, I don't believe all the nutrients are starved out. my tank still grows macro and micro algae, but the 0 nitrates(salifert test) with 2x day feeding is promising.
I have to add why I thought of carbon dosing so early in the startup of my tank. I have experience with beneficial bacteria for organic gardening. we brew our own mix of biological active microbial rich solution. this has proven very important in nutrient uptake for plants. we do use glucose (carbon source) to fuel the growth of our bacteria strains. I chose to use vodka for this application because someone already developed a dosing program and I seen it documented many times.
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My nitrates are still around 5 (on the low side, hard to tell with my test kit), and my phosphates are pretty dang close to 0. I use the API test kits, so its kind of hard to be exact with them. My Calcium is finally down to 460, it was around 600 for a while after I overdosed some calcium.
The thing about vodka is its CHEAP. You can run a phosban reactor, but rowaphos is what $50 a month? This is less than $1 a month, and it is working great. I definitely need it, because I feed 3 times a day (was 4 times a day). I feed the formula flakes a couple times, and arctic pods another. I like to keep my fish and corals happy and fed, so the vodka has helped out tons.
The only thing that can not be stressed enough is that you NEED a good skimmer. You need an oversized skimmer that will take out all the extra organics, or you will have some problems with the dosing.
melev
Well-known member
I have a larger system, with 255g of true water volume (based on the computation in the quoted & linked article) of water.
I started very slowly, dosing 1ml per day. Every week I increased the dosage .5ml. I've been dosing since July 14th of last year, so for more than 7 1/2 months. My dosage has been 15 ml per day for the past month.
The entire time I've dosed, I've only done three water changes. I do run fresh granular activated carbon in a Phosban Reactor to keep water clarity up, as well as to remove chemicals released by the corals in my mixed reef.
From July to December, about once a month I used Phosphate Control (by Blue Life USA) to drop PO4 to zero overnight. I did not use any GFO products, other than that occasional dosage. The last time I had to use it, it was mid-December. PO4 has remained at .03ppm simply by dosing vodka daily.
I have a drip dosing system I built that adds it to the return section of my sump. It takes about 10 minutes for it to fully dose that daily amount of 15ml. I had a feeling dosing too quickly lessened its effect, and decided to try a slower approach that didn't involve me standing there.
I noticed that dosing in this way produced the same volcano-shaped skimmate day after day.
I started very slowly, dosing 1ml per day. Every week I increased the dosage .5ml. I've been dosing since July 14th of last year, so for more than 7 1/2 months. My dosage has been 15 ml per day for the past month.
The entire time I've dosed, I've only done three water changes. I do run fresh granular activated carbon in a Phosban Reactor to keep water clarity up, as well as to remove chemicals released by the corals in my mixed reef.
From July to December, about once a month I used Phosphate Control (by Blue Life USA) to drop PO4 to zero overnight. I did not use any GFO products, other than that occasional dosage. The last time I had to use it, it was mid-December. PO4 has remained at .03ppm simply by dosing vodka daily.
I have a drip dosing system I built that adds it to the return section of my sump. It takes about 10 minutes for it to fully dose that daily amount of 15ml. I had a feeling dosing too quickly lessened its effect, and decided to try a slower approach that didn't involve me standing there.
I noticed that dosing in this way produced the same volcano-shaped skimmate day after day.
melev
Well-known member
Here's how my water parameters have played out during that time period:
My reef is 4.5 years old, has a DSB, refugium, and a larger skimmer. My goal was to control NO3 and PO4, and allow me to feed more heavily, or as heavily as I always have.
I feed 1/2 a sheet of nori to my tank daily for the tangs and any other fish that are interested (which ends up being most of them), and then every night they are fed a mixture of mini mysis and frozen cyclop eeze, thawed in a cup of tank water.
I also have a sun coral tank connected to the system, and they get some of that same food nightly.
Over that time, I've lost one fish (my 12 year old clownfish), and one or two corals. Everything else has grown and improved. Water quality is much closer to what I've always wanted.
I don't dose much of anything else. Occasionally I'll remember to dose iodine. I'm completely out of Amino Acids, and so I'm not dosing those.
Here's a picture of my tank as of a few days ago, in the next post.
My reef is 4.5 years old, has a DSB, refugium, and a larger skimmer. My goal was to control NO3 and PO4, and allow me to feed more heavily, or as heavily as I always have.
I feed 1/2 a sheet of nori to my tank daily for the tangs and any other fish that are interested (which ends up being most of them), and then every night they are fed a mixture of mini mysis and frozen cyclop eeze, thawed in a cup of tank water.
I also have a sun coral tank connected to the system, and they get some of that same food nightly.
Over that time, I've lost one fish (my 12 year old clownfish), and one or two corals. Everything else has grown and improved. Water quality is much closer to what I've always wanted.
I don't dose much of anything else. Occasionally I'll remember to dose iodine. I'm completely out of Amino Acids, and so I'm not dosing those.
Here's a picture of my tank as of a few days ago, in the next post.
I've used vodka on my current setup for over a year now. I was able to go from weekly water changes to... well it's been awhile. I dose ~12mL daily of 20% ethanol by volume and dose through my auto-top-off system. I haven't noticed any issues with corals being affecting with vodka and have been happy with it.
spleify
Premium Member
Thanks for your experience Jerm77, so you are currently not dosing then? What other ill effects did you notice to make you want to stop dosing? I'm sure you were monitoring your other params, what were they at?
Joe I agree this is a VERY GOOD CHEAP alternative. Good advice on the skimmer, its very important to run a very good skimmer.
From my understanding also its important to feed well and maintain a lower Alk, some where in the neighborhood of 7-8. Whats everyones thoughts and experiences on this with long term use?
Melev, wow like always. You have a plan and some kind of contraption for everything, I love that doser. What a great way to get that 15ml in there. I agree that a slower dose is probably a better idea, rather than just dumping in 15ml all at once.
I also am still running GFO and GAC, I will continue to always run GAC, as I like how it polishes the water, but will likely discontinue the use of the GAC as I don't think long term that will be necessary.
Joe I agree this is a VERY GOOD CHEAP alternative. Good advice on the skimmer, its very important to run a very good skimmer.
From my understanding also its important to feed well and maintain a lower Alk, some where in the neighborhood of 7-8. Whats everyones thoughts and experiences on this with long term use?
Melev, wow like always. You have a plan and some kind of contraption for everything, I love that doser. What a great way to get that 15ml in there. I agree that a slower dose is probably a better idea, rather than just dumping in 15ml all at once.
I also am still running GFO and GAC, I will continue to always run GAC, as I like how it polishes the water, but will likely discontinue the use of the GAC as I don't think long term that will be necessary.
spleify
Premium Member
Marc, I notice that you still have some pretty noticeable NO3, I am assuming the age of your tank, and also assuming the DSB has been setup all the while. From my understanding this will contribute to longer dosing before noticing a drop. Probably why you can get away with keeping you Alk up higher.
Absolutely stunning tank!! Great job!! Keep up the great work.
Genetics, do you supplement any trace elements or anything else in the absence of the water changes? What are your feeding habits like?
Thanks everyone!!
Spleify
Absolutely stunning tank!! Great job!! Keep up the great work.
Genetics, do you supplement any trace elements or anything else in the absence of the water changes? What are your feeding habits like?
Thanks everyone!!
Spleify
macreefster
New member
ok.. more questions.
is my octopus dnw 200 skimmer sufficient for about 90 gals of water in my system to dose vodka?
i feed my fish lightly 5-6 times a day....frozen brine soaked in selcon, frozen mysis shrimp and frozen cyclopeze. would i just adjust my vodka dosing to accomodate my feeding?
do i discontinue my phosphate reactor while vodka dosing?
is VSV dosing best so as to establish a variety of bacteria strains in the system?
lastly......how much vodka do i provision for myself?....lol
is my octopus dnw 200 skimmer sufficient for about 90 gals of water in my system to dose vodka?
i feed my fish lightly 5-6 times a day....frozen brine soaked in selcon, frozen mysis shrimp and frozen cyclopeze. would i just adjust my vodka dosing to accomodate my feeding?
do i discontinue my phosphate reactor while vodka dosing?
is VSV dosing best so as to establish a variety of bacteria strains in the system?
lastly......how much vodka do i provision for myself?....lol
spleify
Premium Member
Well macreefster I personally don't know much about that skimmer, what is it rated for(tank size)?
You say you feed lightly 5-6 times a day, is it really lightly you meant to say, or heavily?
I would not recommend discontinuing use of the GFO just yet. Let the carbon dosing go for a while, to be sure you don't need it.
My understanding is, yes you can adjust vodka or VSV to match you nutrient import. Monitoring and adjusting is VERY important.
Lastly, there will be a minimum requirement of AT LEAST 20/1 ratio you/tank. Please adjust accordingly and consume until vision is blurry. :eek2: :lol:
You say you feed lightly 5-6 times a day, is it really lightly you meant to say, or heavily?
I would not recommend discontinuing use of the GFO just yet. Let the carbon dosing go for a while, to be sure you don't need it.
My understanding is, yes you can adjust vodka or VSV to match you nutrient import. Monitoring and adjusting is VERY important.
Lastly, there will be a minimum requirement of AT LEAST 20/1 ratio you/tank. Please adjust accordingly and consume until vision is blurry. :eek2: :lol:
Paul_PSU
In Memoriam
Marc,
I see that your phosphates remained high until this year when they dropped down to .03. Do you attribute that primarily to the vodka dosing? The reason I ask is my Nitrates are zero but I am having HA issues. I test with an API phosphate test kit and it tells me zero. I know my phosphates are high since I have the HA. I am dosing 5ml on a 100g total system volume and just wondering if I should keep the dose at 5ml since my nitrates are zero or keeping bumping it up till the HA starts to disappear.
Spleify,
vodka was the only thing that got my nitrates to zero and kept them there. I also finally only have to clean my glass once every 5 or 6 days. I had to clean it once sometimes two times per day before vodka.
Paul
I see that your phosphates remained high until this year when they dropped down to .03. Do you attribute that primarily to the vodka dosing? The reason I ask is my Nitrates are zero but I am having HA issues. I test with an API phosphate test kit and it tells me zero. I know my phosphates are high since I have the HA. I am dosing 5ml on a 100g total system volume and just wondering if I should keep the dose at 5ml since my nitrates are zero or keeping bumping it up till the HA starts to disappear.
Spleify,
vodka was the only thing that got my nitrates to zero and kept them there. I also finally only have to clean my glass once every 5 or 6 days. I had to clean it once sometimes two times per day before vodka.
Paul
macreefster
New member
i like that 20:1 ratio, but then i would, i'm irish!
when i feed, the food is all eaten within a minute, so i consider that feeding lightly. i do have a large fish load with 9 anthias, 9 chromis, 1 royal gramma, 1 purple tank and 1 clown goby though.
so far everything has been fine, but like you i am always looking to make things better. maybe thats a mistake. i am experiencing a bryopsis outbreak, but that is pretty much due to me letting my DI resins go too long before replacing. i raised my Mg to 1550 to hopefully eradicate the bryopsis.
wow....after 20 shots of vodka my tank looks better than ever!
when i feed, the food is all eaten within a minute, so i consider that feeding lightly. i do have a large fish load with 9 anthias, 9 chromis, 1 royal gramma, 1 purple tank and 1 clown goby though.
so far everything has been fine, but like you i am always looking to make things better. maybe thats a mistake. i am experiencing a bryopsis outbreak, but that is pretty much due to me letting my DI resins go too long before replacing. i raised my Mg to 1550 to hopefully eradicate the bryopsis.
wow....after 20 shots of vodka my tank looks better than ever!
Jerm77
New member
I continue to dose @ .5ml (40% or 80 proof). I did take a 2 week break. I did notice during that break I had some color loss in my soft and SPS corals. I did not take any nitrate readings during that period, although I wish I would have(my pinpoint nitrate monitor was giving me false readings). I also didn't take any phosphate readings during that period either. but my macro algae did have a bit of a growth spurt.
currently I get 0 readings in NO3 and PO4.
melev
Well-known member
I decided I should test the water in my tank after seeing how long it had been. Take into account that for almost two weeks I was away from my tank... I just need to blame someone else.
Nitrates appear to be at 10ppm finally. I took a picture with a flash, which actually ended up being more misleading because it really actually matches 10 at last.
Oh well, so be it. PO4 rose, Salinity is off by several points (see March's "A message from the editor" - coming soon), but the rest of the numbers were pretty good.
I don't know how PO4 went up, but if it doesn't get back down, I'll use Phosphate Control to drop it back to zero overnight. The vodka seems to help keep it down, but perhaps my tank does need a little extra help from time to time (not unlike a system with a Calcium Reactor that still needs to be buffered up on occasion).
Perhaps a better choice for your tank would be a bunch of new hungry snails to mow down the GHA you are seeing. You do realize you have to manually remove the bulk of it first, right? After you rip out a bunch, measure the PO4 of your tank to see what the level is.
I track it in Excel. I added the pretty colors myself.
I feed pretty heavily. I add probably 25g or so of shrimp/clam/mysis/fish daily (about two tblspns). I'm not big into trace element additions as I don't believe the additions are fundamental to coral growth or survival. To clarify, I'm not saying trace elements are not important. They are but I haven't seen any great evidence showing adding them improves growth, coloration, or health. Also, in the aquarium there is little data suggesting they are being depleted. From what I've seen some elements are actually much higher than NSW.
spleify
Premium Member
Yeah that is a pretty good bio lod, I think you could benefit long term from carbon dosing.
Give it a try and keep us posted.
Unnecessary comment, please try and keep those to yourself in the future.
Glad to hear its working well for you. Will you continue on this path, and will you change anything?
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14529825#post14529825 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by melev
I decided I should test the water in my tank after seeing how long it had been. Take into account that for almost two weeks I was away from my tank... I just need to blame someone else.
Nitrates appear to be at 10ppm finally. I took a picture with a flash, which actually ended up being more misleading because it really actually matches 10 at last.
Oh well, so be it. PO4 rose, Salinity is off by several points (see March's "A message from the editor" - coming soon), but the rest of the numbers were pretty good.
I don't know how PO4 went up, but if it doesn't get back down, I'll use Phosphate Control to drop it back to zero overnight. The vodka seems to help keep it down, but perhaps my tank does need a little extra help from time to time (not unlike a system with a Calcium Reactor that still needs to be buffered up on occasion).
Perhaps a better choice for your tank would be a bunch of new hungry snails to mow down the GHA you are seeing. You do realize you have to manually remove the bulk of it first, right? After you rip out a bunch, measure the PO4 of your tank to see what the level is.
I track it in Excel. I added the pretty colors myself.
Looks like its working. Did you have someone dosing while you were gone? I think the lenght of time it is taking for you is due to the DSB.
I agree with adding the GFO for quick reductions but believe the carbon dosing is a great alternative to constant, expensive GFO use.
I like your spread sheet, I use a similar excel spread sheet, but mine doesn't have all those pretty colors.
Interesting thoughts. Mike(miwoodar) who was featured in your article did not do water frequent water changes either and he obviously had GREAT success. It's one of those things that can't really be tested for , but everyone thinks we need to add them.
Thanks for everyones experiences. Please keep them coming.
