Who's dosing vodka? And why?
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herring_fish
Crazy Designer
While waiting for them, I will agree. The little bit of experience that I gained was that dosing too early can interrupted the natural progression of the tank’s maturation process. One thing that your pictures tell me is that you have lots of patience. You are starting slowly and methodically. You can wait to jump into dosing. I’m going to wait until I get a lot more fish before I start back.
A.VOID
Premium Member
I'm 4 weeks into dosing
Upto 2.8 ml per day, and I've seen a drop in Nitrates from 10+ -> 5
I want to keep the 2.8 until I see 0, but I have a couple issues:
- I had a bad Alk test that spiked my Alk from 7-8 to 12. It looks like I lost 2 birdsnest colonies and I got plenty of burnt tips. I should be normal today after turning off the doser, but that didn't help things.
- I see white strings from a few acros immediately upon dosing. I think they are slimming, but maybe it's the bacteria???
- Cyano arrived this week. Not on the sand yet, but it's now in the rocks. I guess it's Chemi-clean time?
Upto 2.8 ml per day, and I've seen a drop in Nitrates from 10+ -> 5
I want to keep the 2.8 until I see 0, but I have a couple issues:
- I had a bad Alk test that spiked my Alk from 7-8 to 12. It looks like I lost 2 birdsnest colonies and I got plenty of burnt tips. I should be normal today after turning off the doser, but that didn't help things.
- I see white strings from a few acros immediately upon dosing. I think they are slimming, but maybe it's the bacteria???
- Cyano arrived this week. Not on the sand yet, but it's now in the rocks. I guess it's Chemi-clean time?
The purpose for organic carbon dosing is to maintain low nitrates and phosphate levels. In a cycling tank ,in my opinion, letting the biofilter establish itself without dosing extra organic carbon is a surer course. There should be plenty to go around as it is.
I would , personaly , not dose any vodka if my system were maintaining very low nitrate and phosphate .
I would , personaly , not dose any vodka if my system were maintaining very low nitrate and phosphate .
Here is a paper on the effects of carbon dosing on several streams which notes a decrease in nitrification when carbon is added. The author attributes the decrease in nitrirfication to increased competition by heterotrophs for available ammonia when the ratio of carbon to nitrogen is enhanced significantly in favor of carbon.
http://www.uwlax.edu/biology/aquatics/Strauss PhD Dissertation.pdf
This suggests that adding organic carbon to a new tank would make it difficult to establish of a nitrifying biofilter in tune with the tank's bioload.
This is from the abstract:
"Increases of organic carbon either decreased or completely iinhibited nitrification......
The mechanism responsible for inhibition of nitrification when organic carbon was present in abundance was likely increased competition between nitrifying and heterotrophic bacteria for available ammonia...."
http://www.uwlax.edu/biology/aquatics/Strauss PhD Dissertation.pdf
This suggests that adding organic carbon to a new tank would make it difficult to establish of a nitrifying biofilter in tune with the tank's bioload.
This is from the abstract:
"Increases of organic carbon either decreased or completely iinhibited nitrification......
The mechanism responsible for inhibition of nitrification when organic carbon was present in abundance was likely increased competition between nitrifying and heterotrophic bacteria for available ammonia...."
Jerm77
New member
thanks for posting that paper.
I want to see if I understand what exactly there are trying to show here and
what relation this has to our use of carbon dosing.
this paper shows that carbon dosing has a
negative impact on nitrification(increasing with
higher quality sources of carbon) rates by suggesting the hetrotrophic bacteria
out compete autotrophic bacteria for available NH4+.
I have a few questions:
what does this have to do with the nitrification and denitrification
balance that we strive for in our systems ? can the availability of DOC in
high amounts really reduce the effeciency of nitrification to the point of
system crash? the reduction in nitrification can cause what likely results in our systems(if not some crash)?
I want to see if I understand what exactly there are trying to show here and
what relation this has to our use of carbon dosing.
this paper shows that carbon dosing has a
negative impact on nitrification(increasing with
higher quality sources of carbon) rates by suggesting the hetrotrophic bacteria
out compete autotrophic bacteria for available NH4+.
I have a few questions:
what does this have to do with the nitrification and denitrification
balance that we strive for in our systems ? can the availability of DOC in
high amounts really reduce the effeciency of nitrification to the point of
system crash? the reduction in nitrification can cause what likely results in our systems(if not some crash)?
I don't know the answer to your question. At some level excessive totasl organic carbon will likely crash a tank. I think it would have some impact on the balance of heterotrophic bacteria and autotrophic bacteria consuming ammonia.
Slowly building doses in an established tank with a clear measurements of PO4 and NO3 is a good way to go if you need to dose at all.
The paper was offered in the context of a question as to wether or not to use carbon dosing in a new or cycling tank. The autotrphs(don't need organic carbon) that process ammonia and nitrite to nitrate are slow to colonize and may take month or more to establish. Heterotrophic(need organic carbon) bacteria which breakdown ammonia and nitrite proliferate much more quickly . So I think carbon dosing will mess up the cycle and establishment of a biofilter to some degree.
Personally . I would not dose organic carbon to a tank until it was established and stable and then only if it was needed to reduce PO4 or NO3. If the tank was in balance( very low NO3 and PO4) without it ; I'd leave it that way.
I dose vodka and vinegar in moderately low amounts it does reduce PO4 and NO3 effectively in a high bioload system.
Slowly building doses in an established tank with a clear measurements of PO4 and NO3 is a good way to go if you need to dose at all.
The paper was offered in the context of a question as to wether or not to use carbon dosing in a new or cycling tank. The autotrphs(don't need organic carbon) that process ammonia and nitrite to nitrate are slow to colonize and may take month or more to establish. Heterotrophic(need organic carbon) bacteria which breakdown ammonia and nitrite proliferate much more quickly . So I think carbon dosing will mess up the cycle and establishment of a biofilter to some degree.
Personally . I would not dose organic carbon to a tank until it was established and stable and then only if it was needed to reduce PO4 or NO3. If the tank was in balance( very low NO3 and PO4) without it ; I'd leave it that way.
I dose vodka and vinegar in moderately low amounts it does reduce PO4 and NO3 effectively in a high bioload system.
JCR's Reef
New member
Is it possible to dose Vodka just to bring out the color of the coral? I dont have high No3=0, P04= .04
Phospates use to always be 0 but I have started feeding more aggressively throughout the week instead of just once a week.
Phospates use to always be 0 but I have started feeding more aggressively throughout the week instead of just once a week.
JCR the reason most see a color improvement is due the brown zoox that results when one has a higher level of ammonia/nitrate. I don't know if you would notice any great improvement and would recommend looking at different lighting setups to get the best results.
JCR's Reef
New member
Thanks, I just updated my lights last month and slowly increasing my lighting times. This is all on my 25g cube which is holding all of my coral until my 72 bow is done. The tank is only 12" tall so the lights are suspended about 16" above the tank.
2 VHO pure actincs - 2 T5's fiji purple and blue special = all 4 of them for 6hrs, off while the MH is on
1 reefflux 12k MH for 3 hrs. Probably switching for a radium.
The tanks been running for roughly for 6-7 months and is a BB tank.
I think the reason for my loss of color was my flameback angel. I put it in there about 4 months ago and thats about the time my problem started. I literally lost all polyp extension and my colors faded out quickly. But I didnt notice the fish picking until a week ago when I took the time and sat in front of my tank for a few hours. Usually when I approach the tank it seemed he was a perfect citizen. After about 45 mins and actually paying attention, it was going to every piece of coral nipping at all the polyps. I think this has made my coral loose its color and PE. Although I have viewed tanks with no polyp extension and the corals still had good color
So who knows. It didnt matter whether or not it was SPS or LPS. My acans were shrivled up very tight which made their colors stand out but you knew they werent happy.
After seeing this I removed the fish the next day and put it in my 110g which was sometime last week. Now there is no fish in there but I still have very little polyp extension. Even when I feed heavy. All of my LPS is fluffy and happy though.
With all of my SPS coral starting to brown out or just loosing their color and polyp extension I decided to try Vodka out to see if it would help. It was either Vodka or Zeovit. Vodka seemed much easier so I started dosing MB7 a month ago for the bacteria source. This week I started Vodka. Its a very modest dose using a pipette putting only 2 drops in a 40g TWV tank. Under the .1 ml for 25g. I dont plan on increasing the dose, but will continue to dose as long as I can see things starting to come back.
As of today I can see blue and pinks on the tips of my acros coming back which were totally brown before. So something good but its hard to tell from what exactly.
Just this month I have upgraded lights on the tank, upgraded skimmer to a K2 cone which will go on my new tank, built new sump to fit the skimmer which I had to remove my refugium, added more LR to the sump, removed my fish and started Vodka dosing. With all of this it will be hard to tell what will make the tank bounce back, but I think all the changes are postive and should help. Sorry so long but I'd figure the more info the better
2 VHO pure actincs - 2 T5's fiji purple and blue special = all 4 of them for 6hrs, off while the MH is on
1 reefflux 12k MH for 3 hrs. Probably switching for a radium.
The tanks been running for roughly for 6-7 months and is a BB tank.
I think the reason for my loss of color was my flameback angel. I put it in there about 4 months ago and thats about the time my problem started. I literally lost all polyp extension and my colors faded out quickly. But I didnt notice the fish picking until a week ago when I took the time and sat in front of my tank for a few hours. Usually when I approach the tank it seemed he was a perfect citizen. After about 45 mins and actually paying attention, it was going to every piece of coral nipping at all the polyps. I think this has made my coral loose its color and PE. Although I have viewed tanks with no polyp extension and the corals still had good color
So who knows. It didnt matter whether or not it was SPS or LPS. My acans were shrivled up very tight which made their colors stand out but you knew they werent happy.After seeing this I removed the fish the next day and put it in my 110g which was sometime last week. Now there is no fish in there but I still have very little polyp extension. Even when I feed heavy. All of my LPS is fluffy and happy though.
With all of my SPS coral starting to brown out or just loosing their color and polyp extension I decided to try Vodka out to see if it would help. It was either Vodka or Zeovit. Vodka seemed much easier so I started dosing MB7 a month ago for the bacteria source. This week I started Vodka. Its a very modest dose using a pipette putting only 2 drops in a 40g TWV tank. Under the .1 ml for 25g. I dont plan on increasing the dose, but will continue to dose as long as I can see things starting to come back.
As of today I can see blue and pinks on the tips of my acros coming back which were totally brown before. So something good but its hard to tell from what exactly.
Just this month I have upgraded lights on the tank, upgraded skimmer to a K2 cone which will go on my new tank, built new sump to fit the skimmer which I had to remove my refugium, added more LR to the sump, removed my fish and started Vodka dosing. With all of this it will be hard to tell what will make the tank bounce back, but I think all the changes are postive and should help. Sorry so long but I'd figure the more info the better
JCR,
What kind of color problem are you having? Too pale? To brown? Not as much purple as you would like? Washed out greens with a yellow appearance? There are many types of color "problems," each with a different cause and a different solution. Increased feeding could help with some and make others worse for instance. Same goes for vodka dosing.
Also, I am not at all surprised that your flame angel was going after your corals, given that you were only feeding him once a week.
What kind of color problem are you having? Too pale? To brown? Not as much purple as you would like? Washed out greens with a yellow appearance? There are many types of color "problems," each with a different cause and a different solution. Increased feeding could help with some and make others worse for instance. Same goes for vodka dosing.
Also, I am not at all surprised that your flame angel was going after your corals, given that you were only feeding him once a week.
JCR's Reef
New member
When did I say I fed the flameback once a week? 
The flame angel was fed daily alternating between pellets, algae sheet, and frozen. The coral was spot fed once a week.
Nitrate, Nitrate, Ammonia has always been 0
Phosphates were always 0 since startup up until this week when I took the refugium out. Now its at 0.04. Had someone check with a Hanna meter.
Most of the colors were just pale, while others browned out.
The flame angel was fed daily alternating between pellets, algae sheet, and frozen. The coral was spot fed once a week.
Nitrate, Nitrate, Ammonia has always been 0
Phosphates were always 0 since startup up until this week when I took the refugium out. Now its at 0.04. Had someone check with a Hanna meter.
Most of the colors were just pale, while others browned out.
melev
Well-known member
Josh - that many changes in your tank in such a short period makes is very difficult to see results with SPS corals.
I can tell you this, a tank that has very little fish (or none at all) and light feedings tends to not be colorful. There was a guy with a coral greenhouse that used to post on RC, and his corals were pale and lacked color. He'd sell a piece to one hobbyist after another, and once those corals were put in their new tanks, they'd color up and look incredible. He couldn't understand why they didn't look good in his system. After a while he added some Yellow Tangs to the same vat the corals were growing in, and that solved the problem. All the coloration returned. The tangs were being fed, and they would rain down tiny bits of food each time they pooped into the water column. And because they were tangs, they consumed any nuisance algae. It was a two-fer, benefit-wise.
Whatever you choose to do next, give it some time (months, not weeks) to see how it works out. Feel free to keep posting if you have questions or have an itch to make another change. We'll try to talk you down before you jump.
I can tell you this, a tank that has very little fish (or none at all) and light feedings tends to not be colorful. There was a guy with a coral greenhouse that used to post on RC, and his corals were pale and lacked color. He'd sell a piece to one hobbyist after another, and once those corals were put in their new tanks, they'd color up and look incredible. He couldn't understand why they didn't look good in his system. After a while he added some Yellow Tangs to the same vat the corals were growing in, and that solved the problem. All the coloration returned. The tangs were being fed, and they would rain down tiny bits of food each time they pooped into the water column. And because they were tangs, they consumed any nuisance algae. It was a two-fer, benefit-wise.
Whatever you choose to do next, give it some time (months, not weeks) to see how it works out. Feel free to keep posting if you have questions or have an itch to make another change. We'll try to talk you down before you jump.
JCR's Reef
New member
Thanks Marc. I included a picture from when I first added them so everyone can see how small they were. As you can see the feeding tentacles were out on my small acan colony in this pic. Ill have to scrounge around and see if I have another pic to see how shrivled up they got. My blue tipped acro has some color in it too. My blue millie lost its color and I'm going to frag the tips off to see if the new growth on it will have color.
In my DT I had a baby Niger trigger (2") and the Flameback angel (3") and they were fed daily. Sometimes twice a day. So I did have fish in there. Last week I removed them and put them into my 110 softie tank with my other fish. Once a week I spot feed the coral with Amino Acids, coral frenzy, Bioplankton w/ cyclopeeze, and mysis. I really thought I was over feeding but I had an efficient skimmer on it at the time. Now my skimmer is overkill so I need to get started on the new tank to put it on.
Before I removed the old sump I had a small patch about the size of a dollar bill of cyano in my return pump area. Half on the side of the baffle and the other half on the bottom of the return area. Everywhere else was spotless and I still had good readings on my tests. My main tank has high flow and no algae growing in it other than spots of byropris (sp) on my rock. Im just going to document things, snap pictures and sit back for a bit.
In my DT I had a baby Niger trigger (2") and the Flameback angel (3") and they were fed daily. Sometimes twice a day. So I did have fish in there. Last week I removed them and put them into my 110 softie tank with my other fish. Once a week I spot feed the coral with Amino Acids, coral frenzy, Bioplankton w/ cyclopeeze, and mysis. I really thought I was over feeding but I had an efficient skimmer on it at the time. Now my skimmer is overkill so I need to get started on the new tank to put it on.
Before I removed the old sump I had a small patch about the size of a dollar bill of cyano in my return pump area. Half on the side of the baffle and the other half on the bottom of the return area. Everywhere else was spotless and I still had good readings on my tests. My main tank has high flow and no algae growing in it other than spots of byropris (sp) on my rock. Im just going to document things, snap pictures and sit back for a bit.
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melev
Well-known member
If the water is good, and the food is there, perhaps this is a lighting or temperature issue. Also, just for the heck of it, make absolutely sure your salinity is correct. I see some zoanthids in the last picture that look open, so I'd imagine the number is lower, not higher than 1.026.
How long do you run your lights each day, and what wattage / spectrum? Perhaps it is too much and the corals are exhausted.
Btw, I'm pretty sure we can't feed amino acids to anything. The way I understand it, it creates a stimulus to make the corals aware that it is time to eat. I remember with the Pappone method, you dosed AAs to the tank, and 20 minutes later you'd put the food in the display because the corals were ready to capture it. That's my understanding of it.
How long do you run your lights each day, and what wattage / spectrum? Perhaps it is too much and the corals are exhausted.
Btw, I'm pretty sure we can't feed amino acids to anything. The way I understand it, it creates a stimulus to make the corals aware that it is time to eat. I remember with the Pappone method, you dosed AAs to the tank, and 20 minutes later you'd put the food in the display because the corals were ready to capture it. That's my understanding of it.
JCR's Reef
New member
I keep my salinity at 1.026
Your right about the AA. The only benefit I have seen from using AA is with my zoanthids. Without it they dont grow very fast since its a lower nutrient system. While using AA I get more of a feeding response from my acans, chalices, and sunpolyps. When I feed the coral I shut my return pump off for 30-45min right before the lights go off and leave my powerheads in the tank on to keep the food suspended.
