Who's responsible for making sure a hobbyist can care for the animal?

[dwestUSF]

I am fortunate enough to live in a part of Florida that has a large amount of LFS to choose from. I am even more fortunate to have a store that truly cares about the animals they sell and will go as far as refusing a sale because the customer is ill equipped to care for the animal properly. The same can't be said for other stores that regularly sell fish that are almost impossible to keep in captivity or generally have bad track records like Garden Eel's, Morish Idols, Temperate Boxfish, Pinnatus Batfish, etc. This store has no qualms about giving the customer misinformation in order to just make a sale.
This thread is not intended to create a LFS bash because I know the later example above pretty much describes business practices that make up the majority of this hobby, I am just curious to find out what everyone thinks about the subject of this thread.
So who do you think is ultimately responsible when a fish or invert is sold to a hobbyist that has zero business owning the animal?
Should the store make it a standard process to ask the customer about there setup, and if they know how to properly care for the animal or is it 100% on the hobbyists to know everything about the animal?

 

[snorvich]

Ultimately, it is the hobbyist who must insure the viability of the environment that s/he provides. Ultimately, the dollars spent on animals will dictate that, at least with most hobbyists. LFS that are unethical quickly fade away as their repeat business is minimal.

 

[Venetia]

I agree with the above, but not in all cases. I have seen and worked with lfs emplyees who only cared about the commision. There was one gal who came in wanting to buy a goldfish and bowl for their child. The sales guy had her talked into a 10g setup and a yellow tang. She believed every lie he told. He knew it was wrong, but wanted the bonus. I was able to stop the sale and once the gal found out what all was really needed to keep a tang she went with the goldfish. In the 10g of course, I don't believe in putting them in bowls.

 

[ctenophors rule]

a men, bowls are horribly cruel.

(ever heard of people putting babies in crates for their full life? didn't think so)

i would also like to note that most of the lfs employees are clueless (at least in my experience)

every so often you find one that is knowledgable, but more often than not they aren't.

just my .02

 

[ctenophors rule]

a men, bowls are horribly cruel.

(ever heard of people putting babies in crates for their full life? didn't think so)

i would also like to note that most of the lfs employees are clueless (at least in my experience)

every so often you find one that is knowledgable, but more often than not they aren't.

just my .02

 

[SumBub]

Some stores would probably go the extra mile, but more often than not, they won't. It is pretty much a detriment to the business the store will see. If he refuses approximately 3 out of 10 customers for example, those 3 would probably feel insulted and hence forth, they would go out and tell their other friends that keep fish/corals that the store is bad. Then it spreads from there. The multiplication factor from that is staggering. Considering the hobby is big, but is it "that" big where the store can refuse customers on a regular basis?

 

[jon1985]

For the most part I agree. In a perfect world we would all do all the research required before we buy anything, but lots of people dont or figure 'Ill learn as I go'. While it would be great to have LFS stores that never lied, knew everything about everything they sold and kept everything in ideal conditions, this will never happen. The main reason, money. It would cost to much to keep every fish in appropriate sized aquariums, and have staff that knew all about them. For the most part these stores are staffed by people being paid minimum wage and just working for a job. It comes down to business. I mean when was the last time you bought a car and the salesmen was 100% honest with you?
Our hobby is not the only place this kind of thing happens. I am also very interested in reptiles and have several species of reptiles and snakes at home. There is nothing worse than going into a store and seeing a salesperson trying to sell a mother or father and child a snake that is going to end up 15 feet long and 30+pounds. And whats worse is they tell them it will survive in a 30 gallon tank its whole life.
To end my rant, it would be great if wholesalers didnt sell anything to stores that didnt have the staff and knowledge to properly care for what they are getting in but if that was the case there would be very few LFS, not to mention the prices of everything would be so high they wouldnt survive. So big suprise it comes down to us, the hobbiest, doing our research and trying to help others along the way.
Thanks for reading,
Jon

 

[ginger7286]

When I ventured onto this hobby it was for several reasons, one being I love the Sea and I am in such awe of Mother Nature. When I first joined RC and started to browse the froums and ask questions many of you kept saying "do more research". Wow, I tired if that BUT I did take your words of wisedom and continued my research. I hold myself responsible for the decisions I make with my tanks. I know I am responsible for providing the best environment possible for my fish. Ultimately there should be regulations on the types of fishes taken from the wild. But I believe the aquarist is the one responsible. I did my homework and I continue to do my homework. So I will stand with those on RC who helped me with "do more research". We as responsible reefkeepers are the best chance this hobby and Mother Nature have to succeed.

 

[ctenophors rule]

jon1984, their does exhist one such perfect store..... oceans below, in west palm, closest you will ever get to perfection, the employees are knowledgable the owner is knowledgable, and humble, which is a realy hard trait to come by with the "Expert owners"

 

[therealfatman]

In most states food handler cards are required to work in a restaurant, yes even McDonalds. I think certifications should be extended to all petshop employees, and that all stores should be inspected etc, just as are restaurants, bars, and such. Just as people obtain licences, Degrees, certifications etc, I believe any one dealing with animals/fish etc should be certified to include farmers/ranchers and their animal handlers,veternarian assistants and dog groomers. Even if those certifications are only to assure that local and state regulations and laws are known. They fine bartenders and take away their permits, they fine bars and can take away their liquor permits, they fine and shut down restaurants. They can strip people of their licences, certifications and even a college can take back a degree they have issued. But no protection for pets/fish or farm animals.

Yepper, fish store employees and fish stores should be held much more accountable than they presently are. There are still huge amounts of ornamental fish and marine and fresh water organisms being sold through pet stores that should never have been harvested yet alone sold to retailer to be sold to a customer. The market is under regulated from the wild to the customer and every where in between. I live in a city with only two fish stores. One locally owned and one Petco. The locally owned is a good store in all respects but immensely expensive. The Petco is cheap and pet and fish wise a disaster. They generlly will sell anything to anyone. Dry goods etc are cheap yhough but Petco quality. Ie., a good cheap place to buy tanks and salt, not much else. ssems there are a lot of people are selling pets/fish when there ethics are sometimes even wose that those of a drug dealer. Lots of very inhumane animal handlers in so many areas. There are manyany food factory style animal raisers/growers/breeders I would imprison gladly. There are many petshop/LFS owners and employees that should be forbidden to work with animals/fish etc.

I can not tell you how many pretty and quite young LFS employees and Petco employees I have seen throw a net containing a fish or small animal in a net across a room because they wiggled. Seen a lot of petshop pretty young girls that will only catch a white mouse, young rat, gerbil etc in a net not their hands. I have seen many customers that had to take a snake out of a tank themselves or wait for a store manager because the pretty young girl will to touch a snake. Nothing against pretty young girls only young pretty ones that have no place working in a pet shop. I saw a tank in a Petco with eight gerbils and only one had a full tail. The pretty young cleark said we usually pull their tails off trying to get them out of the net after we catch them acuse the sink their nails and teeth into the net. She followed that with, "When that happens we have to catch another one."

Can you imagine some one like that catching a lion fish with a "net" to bag it.

 

[GreshamH]

Cali doesn't require "food handler cards".

 

[A. Grandis]

The responsible to educate new hobbiests should be the LFS.
But there should be someone responsible to make sure the LFS knows what they are talking about, and that´s you and me, the more experienced hobbiests.

Grandis.

 

[muddysr5]

Obviously everyone is hitting the nail on the head with $$$ being the number 1 dictator of LSF's being responsible for accountability and ensuring the safety/health of a fish (or whatever life we are talking about).

Part of the problem too, is that the people who are hired by LSF's are cheap labor (back again to money). My LSF is filled with teenagers working for minimum wage.

Of course, this does not go for all LSF's and I applaud anyone who has the knowledge and experience to be considered an expert in the area of reef keeping. Who doesn't appreciate knowledge and experience? Unfortunately, b/c of the free market economy (when compared with the educational system) there does not seem to be the appreciation of knowledge and experience in a particular field. Rather, we look to see who can provide us with a given product at the cheapest price.

Now, if you look at the educational system...there are some school districts that would rather hire teachers with M.A.s, as opposed to B.A.s b/c of the knowledge that these individuals come with. Od course, they are paid appropriately and handsomely in some districts.

Money is the bottom line.

I can share one experience...when I was looking to adopt another dog, I visited one local shelter and overheard the shelter 'manager' insist she would not adopt a cat to this one particular man b/c during the interview he said he would allow his cat outside. I think she truly cared about the animals she was responsible for in her shelter.

In no way do I mean any offense to anyone reading this

 

[circusink22]

I have a LFS neer me that has been family owned for 20 years, they are knowledgeable humble all around good people, he wont refuse a sale to someone, but if he thinks the livestock runs a risk of dieing he will try and explain why he thinks it is not a good idea to buy that item and points them in better direction suited for the person and there experience level. i gave also been in other that it seemed like everyone was a marine biologist..lol there are good stores out there and really bad ones too that went as far as to find way to complain about there houskeeping. in the end nothing beets research research research

 

[snorvich]

Regulation and certification of LFS won't happen. Most LFS are barely breaking even, if at all, and adding an additional cost (regulation and certifications do that) will cause them to raise their prices to try and recover the additional cost, and eventually go out of business. Nice concept, but impractical.

 

[A. Grandis]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15249851#post15249851 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by snorvich
Regulation and certification of LFS won't happen. Most LFS are barely breaking even, if at all, and adding an additional cost (regulation and certifications do that) will cause them to raise their prices to try and recover the additional cost, and eventually go out of business. Nice concept, but impractical.

Yeap. I agree. I think that actually we all know that already. It´s just a dream.

It could be a law, then we would have to add that to our routine. The price will then be something to live with, like when the gas goes up. You´ll still have to drive your car, right?

Grandis.

 

[nfoster187]

I don't think it should be LFS responsibility, it should be the person buying to do re-search before buying. I think that goes for any living animal or creature.

 

[wschang812]

with the internet now, it is easy for a person to do research before buying anything. i think it is up to the person buying. if they are responsible, they will do some research before making an impulse buy that might cost an animals life.

 

[A. Grandis]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15261047#post15261047 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by nfoster187
I don't think it should be LFS responsibility, it should be the person buying to do re-search before buying. I think that goes for any living animal or creature.

with the internet now, it is easy for a person to do research before buying anything. i think it is up to the person buying. if they are responsible, they will do some research before making an impulse buy that might cost an animals life.

But most of the people don´t research or see that organism and want to buy that now before it´s gone. They don´t even know how to research because of the names they use for sale. It´s much easier to have the " responsible" for that organism to "teach" what they need.

If was legal to collect the people would have to know how to, so they don´t kill organisms. Hey, even some collectors don´t know what they´re doing. Hehe


Grandis.

 

[Donmagic22]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14834847#post14834847 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by SumBub
Some stores would probably go the extra mile, but more often than not, they won't. It is pretty much a detriment to the business the store will see. If he refuses approximately 3 out of 10 customers for example, those 3 would probably feel insulted and hence forth, they would go out and tell their other friends that keep fish/corals that the store is bad. Then it spreads from there. The multiplication factor from that is staggering. Considering the hobby is big, but is it "that" big where the store can refuse customers on a regular basis?

you're missing the point i think, he wouldnt be refusing them because they are stupid, he is correcting their issues, i surely doubt a fish store would completely turn away a customer, they would recommend what the customer needs, there are more ways for an LFS to make money than just selling live stock, they sell you a test kit, some pumps, maybe a protein skimmer, more Live rock, they can suggest what you could do to improve your tank so maybe one day you could keep the item you want to buy. And if you don't know how to keep your water conditions healthy you probably dont have many friends with nice tanks to tell to stay away from a store... not to mention if you told them they wouldnt sell you something because your tank was unhealthy they would probably appreciate what the store did...