why can't i bring down my calcium

A

Acronana06

New member
well folks Im stumped been working on this problems for around about a year now but I havent had any adverse affects from it. I'll try getting some pics tomorrow batteries are dead for now but anyhow maybe you guys can send some forsight my way. Ive been in this hobby for a lil over 3 and a half years now so Im not really a novice although there is still very much I have to learn and I look forward to the many more years ahead. anyhow now to get to the point for the past year Ive switched from using Instant Ocean salt mix to using Oceanic salt mostly because oceanic comes on containers instead of bags and its cheaper but I have noticed some different things from using this salt and I was wondering about the adverse affects of this let me first post my params

salinity 1.025
nitrate ammonia and nitrate 0
phosphate around 1-2
ph 8.2

now heres the crazy thing
calcium 640????????

I have never ever ever in the last year been able to get it below 600 and I dont dose any calcium although I keep Kent Marines 2 part calcium available
alk is usually pretty stable which I consider wierd because of the high calcium levels

I have NO and I repeat NO adverse affects on corals mostly SPS and a few lps.

I just treated for red bugs and finally rid of the problem havent noticed any of them for over 3 weeks now and hopefully they won't come back

weekly water change of 10%

total water vollume is 77 gallons bein a 65 gallon marineland tank and a 12 gallon jbj as the sump/refuge

I cannot seem to keep any type of monti they all die by stn or rtn and also I cant keep any birdsnest corals or acro millipora. Everything else seems fine.

Should I switch to a different salt and do around a 25 % water change around three times with the new salt to maybe bring down the calcium to a stable level? any oppinions are helpful and yelling at me for being stupid is fine to :) thanks for your help experts as I am totally stumped!!!!!!!!
 
what is your alkalinity? oceanic is very high in ca, but not that high.
what brand test kit are you using? is it a titration test ?
perhaps you are performing the test wrong or the reagents have degraded
 
I tis very difficult to balance a salt like Oceanic even if you add only Alkalinity, water changes will keep your calcium high no matter what.
Change your salt.
 
How about performing less water changes and adding a couple large SPS/LPS colonies to eat up that calcium? How is your coraline growth? They should be munching on that calcium. Perhaps you should add a couple pieces of new live rock with good growth of Coraline on them?...
 
my tests are mostly brand new I think one of them is a couple months old I have some very large colonies for the size of my tank 65 gallon tall coraline growth is OUT of control and there are no spots on my rocks that it isnt growing and i scrape my glass to get it off once a week alkalinity I have always had tested down the street at my lfs will have to try getting a test kit myself. I think I'm gonna end up switching salts any one got any ideas???
 
In my opinion a good salt for reefs is Tropic Marin Pro but just too expensive.
You might want to try Instant Ocean (Stapple of Salts) but get a bag of Peladow and a couple of boxes of Baking Soda to adjust the levels before every change, You will save money and because you are starting with a salt that is more balanced you will improve the control over the parameters. Also get a gallon of Kent Tech M to supplement Magnesium once in a while.
 
Ive used Instant Ocean before I was quite satisfied with it although I just liked the way Oceanic was packaged more this is why I switched. What is Peladow? and how do you adjust the levels with baking soda I will be glad to try whatever works! I use RO/DI in a unit called the Living water from Ecoquest the company I work for the TDS reading is 0 from this unit
 
I sort of had a problem with it when it came to storage instant ocean I always bought in bags which either had to be put in storage containers or left in the bag if left in the bag moisture would get in there and it would turn hard before I used it all also its just a hassle to handle. I liked the container the Oceanic came in easy to handle reclosable lid easy to poor I might just rinse the oceanic salt container and pour in the instant ocean!! PROBLEM SOLVED :)
 
Anthony, Hello there, I see to where you say that oceanic is very high in calcium and it is good to hear that for it lets me know to be aware that I may have to when I do someday start my two reef tanks that I not allow them to drip as much.

I been trying to find the facts in the oceanic salt for I about two years ago switch over from coralife salt for the oceanic salt I can make ready 30-32 gals for a water change on my eel tanks inside of the same day and even in less then 12 hours.

I like to know if you all the data facts on this salt like pH and anything else you might be able to tell me on it for as well, I not too long ago with Jeff who owns fish world had ordered twenty 200 gals buckets of oceanic salt for he has giving me a great price for the more he can order the less in cost it will be.

You understand what i`m looking to learn like phos if any and so on. Thanks in advance

Buddy
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7789178#post7789178 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Acronana06
Ive used Instant Ocean before I was quite satisfied with it although I just liked the way Oceanic was packaged more this is why I switched. What is Peladow? and how do you adjust the levels with baking soda I will be glad to try whatever works! I use RO/DI in a unit called the Living water from Ecoquest the company I work for the TDS reading is 0 from this unit
Click to expand...

OK here goes the fast one although you can find tons of information about Calcium Alkalinity and Magnesium on sticky threads with articles from Randy on the sticky threads in the chemistry forum.

Kak (Limewater), a calcium reactor and a two part supplement add calcium and Alkalinity in a balanced way (Meaning in the proportion they are most commonly consumed, this is 20 ppm of calcium per 1 meq/lt of alkalinity.
When your salt is unbalanced, too much Calcium and low alkalinity or vice versa using any of this methods to make adjustments is impossible as you will affect both at the same time although two part supplements you can use more of one of the parts than the other but you will be left with the one you use less.
This is why all this methods are preferably used to MAINTAIN calcium and alkalinity.
When you need to adjust one and not the other, you need to add supplements that can increase them independently.
A Calcium only supplement (The most common) is Calcium Chloride in either of its two forms Hydrated or anhydrous (anhydrous being more concentrated as it does not contain water molecules)
Reef products that are Calcium Chloride in powder are Kent's TurboCalcium, ESV Calcium Chloride etc. Most other Calcium only supplements in liquid form (like Kent's liquid Calcium) are just Calcium Chloride dissolved in RO/DI water.
Now that is for aquarium products. Calcium Chloride is very commonly used in large quantities as ice and snow melters in winter so it is a lot less expensive than the sold for aquariums. Two brands that have purity good enough to be used are Peladow from Dow Corning which is Calcium Chloride Anhydrous and Dow Flake which is Hydrated Calcium Chloride. Either one is a perfect and cheap way to make Calcium only adjustment just by dissolving the powder in some water and adding it to the aquarium. How much... I'll get there.
Regarding Alkalinity, most alkalinity only buffers are mostly Baking Soda (Sodium Bicarbonate) with some Soda Ash or Washing Soda (Sodium Carbonate) plus some Borates.
Because borate come in your salt mix and they do not get consumed you really do not need them. Sodium Carbonate is nothing else than Baking Soda from which CO2 has been removed by heating it up.
Either Pure Baking Soda, pure Washing Soda or a mix of both are perfect to increase carbonate alkalinity. Baking Soda will temporarily (6 to 12 hours) decrease your PH slightly while Washing Soda will temporarily increase your PH significantly so a mix of both is perfect as supplement. by adjusting the amount of one in proportion to the other you can basically prepare a supplement that increase, lowers or keep your PH unaltered.
It will also be easy to get a box of washing soda used for laundry but the purity might not be as good as the food grade baking soda.
The beauty is that you can go to the supermarket, get a couple of boxes of Arm and Hammer Baking Soda, put the content of one of the boxes on a baking tray and bake it in your oven at 350*F for 90 minutes and the CO2 will be driven out of it turning it into washing soda (We call it baked baking soda), then mix it with the content of the second box and you have a supplement for alkalinity that will moderately increase your PH. If you want your PH to remain constant the mix is about 6 parts of baking soda for 1 part of baked baking soda.
That simple.
Now how much to use:
Here is the chemistry calculator: enter your system water volume, your initial value and your targeted value, select the product you want to use and it will tell you how much to add.
http://jdieck1.home.comcast.net/chem_calc3.html

If you need to know how much water you have in your system, try:
http://jdieck1.home.comcast.net/volcalc.html

Now because Magnesium gets used or precipitated slowly or many salts do not contain it in the right proportion, and because neither of the supplements for Calcium or Alkalinity or for both add magnesium (Note: there are some commercial Alk. supplements that contain also magnesium) then you will also need to add some magnesium once in a while. My preferred is a mix of Magnesium Chloride and Epsom salts but the Magnesium chloride is difficult to find so Epsom salts alone will work but you need a lot of it which may create a bit of excess of sulfate. In any case any commercial magnesium supplement will work well, my preferred has been Kent's Tech-M.

Enjoy!
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7790683#post7790683 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by DragonMorayEels
Anthony, Hello there, I see to where you say that oceanic is very high in calcium and it is good to hear that for it lets me know to be aware that I may have to when I do someday start my two reef tanks that I not allow them to drip as much.
Click to expand...

I have tried and tested many different salts, here is my take on the ones I have used. I did not detect any phosphates or nitrates in any of the salts.

Oceanic:
High in Calcium (Over 500 ppm most of the time reaching up to 650 ppm some times)
High in Magnesium: 1400 to 1500 ppm
Relatively low alkalinity: in the 2.5 to 3 meq/lt
Consistency, very powdery which facilitates dissolution but difficult uniformity in the mix and makes hydration easy so if not stored well packaged or in a dry place can degrade the carbonate supplements or turn it in to a huge rock.
With some batches there has been report of it causing golden algae blooms which may indicate silicates or nitrates.

Instant Ocean:
Relatively Low Calcium, Low Alkalinity and Low Magnesium but is very consistent and because although low they are balanced it is very easy to supplement before adding to your aquarium, good price good package and have very little reported problems although about two years ago they put out a large batch with very high alkalinity that killed a couple of tanks. In general is considered the staple or most commonly used of the salts.

Kent:
Up to about three months ago, for me this was one of the best, more balanced more consistent and with more closer to normal levels of Calcium, Magnesium and alkalinity with no reported issues. and although the same company that makes IO was the one mixing Kent, Kent had their own formula and an excellent quality control. At the end of last year the company was acquired by the guys who also acquire Oceanic and consolidated the preparation and formulation (I assume to save some costs) and at the beginning of this year they messed it up by putting out a large batch of salt without any alkalinity. I do not know at this point what is the status.

Tropic Marin:
This is what I use now and I am not impressed. Although balanced, the levels are even lower than IO so require more supplementation. It seems to have some dechlorinator additive as whenever I make my water change my ORP takes a dive from the high 380 mv down to 240 mV. In addition it does not seem very consistent and at least in the buckets it seems to have separation of the components as the levels vary between water mix batches within the same bucket.

Tropic Marin Pro:
Levels tested good and balanced and did not affected the ORP, although require a bit of Alkalinity and Calcium supplement is well balanced although suffers the same issues of inconsistency within the same bucket. It dissolves fast (as Oceanic does) but because it is also finely milled it has to be kept well sealed and in a dry place.
This is in my opinion the salt that for the moment I would recommend but the issue is that it is expensive and I do not think it worth the price.

So at the end Instant Ocean is the one that makes more sense to me for a balance between cost (even requiring supplementation) and consistency. But I will keep and eye on Kent, there is a chance they may come back well.
 
What test kit are you using? There are a couple that are known to give very high (inaccurate) results.

-E.
 
WOW!!, Then maybe I should cancel out that order, and then have Jeff get me the Kent or some other type of aquarium salt for I'm sure Jeff not as yet gotten this order in at his store for I still enough aquarium salt on hand for about six months of water changes.

Buddy
 
I would double check the calcium test against another tank if you can, just to make sure the kit is accurate. CA test kits can sometimes be way off even if they are new, just a problem with the hobby kits we use.

FWIW, I used Oceanic for a long time with great success, high calcium will have zero effects on your SPS IME. Just make sure you keep the Alk at 8 dKH minimum and you will have no problems.

Also, have you measured the ca from newly made oceanic salt? I always found that the calcium was about 500-550. 620 sounds a little suspect, that's why I'd ask you to double check the accuracy of the test kit.

HTH
 
Re: why can't i bring down my calcium

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7763474#post7763474 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Acronana06


now heres the crazy thing
calcium 640????????

I have never ever ever in the last year been able to get it below 600 and I dont dose any calcium although I keep Kent Marines 2 part calcium available
alk is usually pretty stable which I consider wierd because of the high calcium levels

Click to expand...

First thing that I would do is make a small test bucket of water and test the Calcium level of that make up water.

This will determin if the batch that is in the bucket is high levels of Ca.

How long have you been using the Oceanic salt? How many water changes are you doing? What is the test kits you are using?

Oh and yes don't forget that if the Kh is Over 14 it could be dangerous, and below 8 as well, keep an eye on that too.
 
Joe, I been using oceanic ever since I switch to it from before using coralife and I not had any problems with it to speak of. But if jdieck is correct on his findings, I no wish to be battling nitrate levels in my reef tanks later on :confused: and I don`t mind saying I'm a little confused about it :(

Are you using the oceanic in a reef tank and for how long?

Thanks :)

Buddy
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7791232#post7791232 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by DragonMorayEels
Joe, I been using oceanic ever since I switch to it from before using coralife and I not had any problems with it to speak of. But if jdieck is correct on his findings, I no wish to be battling nitrate levels in my reef tanks later on :confused: and I don`t mind saying I'm a little confused about it :(

Are you using the oceanic in a reef tank and for how long?

Thanks :)

Buddy
Click to expand...

Note that also Kent has had an incident recently. Oceanic issues were about a year and a half ago and there might have fixed the salt for the algae issues since then but eventhough being high in Calcium makes it difficult to balance out anyhow unless you have a very high calcium consumption or you are using only alkalinity supplements.
Also it is always a good idea to double check the results of tests indicating something really out of wack as Joe mentions.

Here are some past references.

http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=475978&perpage=25&pagenumber=1

http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=486571&perpage=25&pagenumber=1

http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=511981&perpage=25&pagenumber=1
 
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