Why no big mangroves in aquariums

N

nonamethefish

New member
I'm curious why are most mangroves in aquariums seedlings or otherwise not a big part in the system. Is it because few people have had the time to allow them to grow and get big? Like thsi photo?
http://images.google.com/imgres?img...+aquarium&um=1&hl=en&rlz=1G1ACGWCENUS306&sa=N

An article on here suggests that mangroves may stress glass/acrylic tanks due to excessive root growth once they get bigger, and suggests putting them in a pot or something to limit their growth. What is someone to do if they want a mangrove tank?
 
As you said its likely the incredibly slow growth of these plants and the amount of time and dedication required to grow them to a larger size than is typically available from the shops. Propagules are legal to collect in some areas but I don't know of any spots in the US that allow for seedling or larger plants' collection.

I've always liked this contest entry: http://showcase.aquatic-gardeners.org/2000.cgi?&op=showcase&category=1&vol=-1&id=93 as a great example of what mangrove dominated tanks could look like in potential. Ah.. and I've always wanted to have an all-mangrove forest aquarium. ;)

>Sarah
 
Ah, but you see although that is a pretty tank, can we see it in a few years when those plant are developing lots of prop roots(and maybe threatening to bust the tank open?)
 
>Is it because few people have had the time to allow them to grow and get big?

In many places they cant be collected any larger than seeds. Grow slooooowly. require high nutrient conditions to grow at all (not quite compatable with reefs). Require a lot of knowledge to shape them in to anything remotly esthetic. in the picture you attached i am almost 100% sure these are fake plants. no way to keep live ones on that ammount of substrate. The seedling tank wont even hold that sand long term, it is going to flatten out without artificial support. which, btw, is not necessarely a problem. It has more potential because mangrowes grow much better in FW tanks. Id say one can develop a live low salt brakish system to keep, say, Uka krabs and skippers, if 5-7 years at least are invested and plants are a few years old to begin with. doable, but so restrictive its a real pain... Personaly, i'd only do it if i had unrestricted acess to the real ecosystem and cound collect my own animals. Otherwise such a display is too low diversity and boring. Another approach is may be to combine with grass, but mangrowes are going to suffer stunted growth in SW.
 
Hmm....so mangroves grow faster in FW? You could grow them to decent size in FW, and gradually convert to brackish.

While diversity certainly can't compare to a reef, I think it could be incredibly interesting if you imitated the mangrove habitats they create. Maybe even use black mangrove for a land area. You could keep land crabs(Gecarcinus, Cardisoma), fiddlers if you have a sandbar, mangrove tree crabs(Aratus) once your trees gain some height. In the water some oyster shells/barnacles could be attached to the roots for a more realistic look. Violet gobies, mollies, Fundulus, diamond killifish, Sheephead pups, rainwater killifish etc. etc.

A good number of these are commercially available.

That would be a SE US mangrove system. If you did a tropical one I think it'd be even more impressive.
 
Hmm....so mangroves grow faster in FW? You could grow them to decent size in FW, and gradually convert to brackish.

While diversity certainly can't compare to a reef, I think it could be incredibly interesting if you imitated the mangrove habitats they create. Maybe even use black mangrove for a land area. You could keep land crabs(Gecarcinus, Cardisoma), fiddlers if you have a sandbar, mangrove tree crabs(Aratus) once your trees gain some height. In the wild, the mangrove rivulus Kryptolebias marmoratus often lives in the crab burrows or similar areas close to land in the swamps. In the water some oyster shells/barnacles could be attached to the roots for a more realistic look. Violet gobies, mollies, Fundulus, diamond killifish, Sheephead pups, rainwater killifish, mangrove gambusia, etc. etc.

A good number of these are commercially available.

That would be a SE US mangrove system. If you did a tropical one I think it'd be even more impressive. Of course not all this stuff is compatible, and colorful mangrove fish are pretty rare.

For the mud thing. You could use more clay so it would clump a little better, plus artificial means as you suggest. Maybe some lava rocks for the mangroves to grow over and these could be covered with the sand/mud to give the impression of an embankment(I suspect for best results you'd need to move the mud frequently).
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14019141#post14019141 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by nonamethefish
Hmm....so mangroves grow faster in FW?
Click to expand...


no.
the most commonly available mangrove is the red mangrove and is generally considered a brackish/full salt species.
the black mangrove and the white mangrove tolerate freshwater much more readily as they grow above the high tide line, but are harder to get.
 
red mangroves grow just fine in any substrate or no substrate at all. most of mine are growing hydroponically with just roots in water. I just stick'em in my HOB overflows. plus IME, the less steady they are, the more likely they are to throw down the heavy prop roots. my hydro's started doing prop roots at about 2'. my 2 1/2+ footers growing in established oolitic sand show no signs of prop roots yet.
 
Mangroves grow just fine in freshwater, however the reason that you dont see them there is because they are adapted to be competitive in a brackish habitat and in freshwater other plants quickly overgrow them. In freshwater they will grow just fine and actually dont need to be sprayed frequently to get the salt off the leaves so there is less maintnance.
 
I know many people are experimenting with mangroves but wouldn't their slow growth contribute to being not a very good nutrient exporter on the typical home reef scale? If you had a few thousand gallon tank, perhaps, but a 100g?

Also, the very first picture I don't believe is fake but it looks like the mangroves have been transplanted. The waterline/barnacles growing on the roots are much higher than the tank they are sitting in. I hope whichever organization is displaying that had the proper permits to do so :)
 
Interesting...so the red mangroves grow along much of the FL coast, in the gulf/intercoastal, which is, of course, saltwater, not brackish. Wonder who sprays the leaves w/ freshwater every day?
 
No one sprays them everyday.. but the afternoon showers get them in the summertime. ;)

I've always questioned the freshwater spray advice as well.

Oh, and you're right.. gulf side they're probably very high brackish end if not straight saltwater. Atlantic side we have more lagoon areas that are truly brackish throughout the year. Of course the reds seem to be in larger stands in the tidal zones and inlets where salt is higher concentration.

My only criticism with the tank buster thing is that, if reds grow so slowly, wouldn't you realize the roots were pushing against your glass with plenty of time to shift them away from the danger zone without getting to a breaking point?

>Sarah
 
I have 4 in my sump and they do grow slow. Mine are two years old and the largest one is 2' tall. I don't really know how much they uptake of the bad nutrients but the are interesting to show off. Trees in a tank. And I might wash off the salt off once or twice a month.
 
It would be hard to see what the roots are doing down under the sand, no? I've heard mangroves do not take root pruning well either.

I wonder if part of the nutrient uptake thing may be that unlike algae mangroves even though they form slowly form very tough, woody structures that probably require much more energy/nutrient investment than flimsy algae.
 
RE: That picture of mangroves from adventure aquarium. I was at adventure aquarium this past summer, and I don't remember any live aquatic plant/algae/corals/non-coral sessile inverts displays (lots of coral skeletons though). The seagrass and macros in the seahorse and lagoon tanks were made of plastic (good plastic replicas.. for the macros it took me a few seconds till I saw the mold seam).

I vaguely recall that mangrove tank.. I'd like to think I'd remember if it were alive, since nothing else was....

Still it's neat what can be done with plastic plants. Also it's a fun place if you'd like to see hippos and sharks.
 
so collecting red mangroves here in Fla is illegal?

ive also read somewhere that the black isnt as good as the red?
 
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