Why not just observation for QT fish?

[rogeragrimes]

I've read hundreds of pages in this forum on QT tanks and techniques. I want to setup a permanent QT tank.

If today's copper treatments require 3-4 weeks of copper treatment, followed by another 2-3 weeks of copper free observation, why not just do observation for 5-7 weeks? Wouldn't that be enough to see ich either come out or die?

I guess the pre-treatment of copper reduces the time if the fish have ich, but for all the fish that don't have ich, wouldn't it be better on their systems long-term?

I see other recommendations about leaving the main tank fishless for 9 weeks so perhaps ich can live much longer with fish.

Sorry for missing this main point. It's probably in one of the other threads, but I missed it.

 

[gone fishin]

I prefer tank transfer method (TTM) over copper for ich. It requires no chemicals. I assume all fish have ich and treat them with TTM. speaking of ich it is not always easy to spot especially if it takes up residence in the gills.

Many folks do just observe and treat accordingly. The length of the observation is a personal choice. be aware that many LFS and distributors use a low dose, less than therapeutic level, of copper. This can mask or keep symptoms at bay for up to 30 days, then the illness shows itself.

FWIW there are many more harmful things than ich. good luck just my 2 cents.

 

[jrp1588]

I don't QT (mostly due to space constraints, but also because of lazy). I know for a fact that there is ich in my system, but I haven't seen a single spot or sign of it in a year since I had a very small outbreak after my initial cycle. Observation isn't enough. A healthy fish can fight off the infection to the point of it being completely impossible to spot.

If you aren't going to treat EVERY fish as if it has ich, then you're wasting your time. It'll eventually ride in on a fish that's carrying it, but is strong enough not to show symptoms.

 

[laga77]

My QT tank is more of an observation tank than QT. It has 2 Chinstrap Jawfish that are permanent residences. New fish go into this tank and are fed fresh, frozen and live food. The ones that come in with ICH, like the Raccoon butterfly from LA, usually will lose any signs after 2-3weeks. If clean after that I will put them in one of two DT. The Jawfish have never displayed why ICH and I have had one for over a year. There have been two cases where once the fish has gone into the DT it has had a spot or two, but never on the fish already in the DT. In some cases, Mandarins or Pipefish, I do not QT. So far I have purchased 29 fish over the last 34 months from multiple stores and on-line vendors. In that time I have not lost a fish to disease. It takes a good diet and water quality along with picking the right fish to get along in the tank to make this work. TTM is not 100% and should not be relied on by itself.

 

[CStrickland]

You can do a qt for just observation, but there are diseases that aren't observable.
Ich can live on a fish without causing symptoms and then one day something happens to stress the fish, it's immune system is weakened, ich gets an advantage and you have a bunch of dead fish. It's like herpes with how it's there and contagious even without a visible sore, except it's curable.

When I qt I treat for flukes too. Prazipro is relatively gentle on fish and fluke symptoms can be hard to spot until it's real bad.

 

[tassod]

IMO, it is almost virtually impossible to keep a DT COMPLETELY disease free, at least for me it has not worked out. I started in this hobby 3 years ago and have tried to QT right from the beginning and I have failed miserably at it. I've done TTM, CP, Hypo, going fallow twice... nothing has worked out. I am now starting over as brook basically wiped out my tank. I'm going FOWLR now and my new approach is that every new fish will get a formalin bath for 45-50 mins prior to going into the DT. I'm hoping by doing this I will eliminate any possibility of brook, velvet or flukes coming in and hopefully Ick as well. I also redesigned my plumbing so that 100% of my return is going through a UV. Also, once a month I will be running a diatom filter which will basically take out everything in the water column. Most will probably disagree with this approach but for me right now this is what I've decided to do.

 

[Brieninsac]

To my understanding a lot of fish diseases are brought on by stress. Therefore I try to make my QT as stress free as possible. This means no medication unless something was detected and treatment is necessary. I also keep my QT in our dining room so it doesn't have a lot of people walking by. I ask family members and visitors to not get up close to the aquarium and startle the fish. I'm also a big advocate in keeping a consistent schedule with my aquarium. That means lights and feeding are consistent day in and day out.

I will sit nearby and observe the fish during feedings to make sure everyone is eating and watching how they interact with each other. I do this for 3-weeks before moving them into the DT.

 

[laga77]

To my understanding a lot of fish diseases are brought on by stress.

Bingo!

 

[Sounds Fishy]

Bingo!

...they are just like humans.A lot of our species get sick( not ich) from stress too!

 

[CStrickland]

Sort of.
Diseases don't magically appear, and there are many kinds (internal and external parasite, fungus, bacteria etc.). I think it's like people, we all know someone with a terrible diet and unhealthy lifestyle who gets sick a lot and probs won't live very long. So if you don't take care of your pets they are more likely to be unable to fight off a cootie. But that doesn't mean they aren't getting sick. Even a super healthy person is going to feel yucky while fighting off a cold, even if they don't come down with pneumonia and need to be hospitalized. I think a super healthy fish probably doesn't feel good if they are plugging along with a low grad ich infection.

When someone's heater fails and the tank crashes from ich it's because it was there all along and hadn't managed to kill them while they were not stressed. Another member recently had a power outage that knocked her tank down to like 70* for a week. If she had ich in that tank those fish would be dead. It's only a matter of time before something like that happens, no tank is fail proof. If the fish are not infected with a disease when it does, they won't get sick.

It would be like a person saying "my kids eat organic and don't have stress so I haven't gotten them vaccinated cause their immune system will fight off polio. It's taking a big risk.

 

[tassod]

So lets say a fish is technically clean of any parasites whatsoever, has nothing at all and is in a tank that is also clean with no parasites, If you were to stress that fish out by lets say chasing it around with a net or whatever, are you telling me that it will all of a sudden have disease?

 

[tassod]

Diseases don't magically appear

That is my understanding as well...

 

[gone fishin]

Sort of.
Diseases don't magically appear, and there are many kinds (internal and external parasite, fungus, bacteria etc.). I think it's like people, we all know someone with a terrible diet and unhealthy lifestyle who gets sick a lot and probs won't live very long. So if you don't take care of your pets they are more likely to be unable to fight off a cootie. But that doesn't mean they aren't getting sick. Even a super healthy person is going to feel yucky while fighting off a cold, even if they don't come down with pneumonia and need to be hospitalized. I think a super healthy fish probably doesn't feel good if they are plugging along with a low grad ich infection.

When someone's heater fails and the tank crashes from ich it's because it was there all along and hadn't managed to kill them while they were not stressed. Another member recently had a power outage that knocked her tank down to like 70* for a week. If she had ich in that tank those fish would be dead. It's only a matter of time before something like that happens, no tank is fail proof. If the fish are not infected with a disease when it does, they won't get sick.

It would be like a person saying "my kids eat organic and don't have stress so I haven't gotten them vaccinated cause their immune system will fight off polio. It's taking a big risk.

Well said C

 

[jrp1588]

I think we're splitting hairs here. I don't think Brieninsac and Laga were suggesting ich just materializes when fish get stressed. To me, 'brought on' meant that it is allowed to take hold due to their compromised immune system. It is important to note that that the parasite HAS to be present for the disease to develop. I've seen newbies get that mixed up.

I will say again though, if you don't treat EVERY incoming fish as if it's infected, you're going to introduce ich to the tank. It's all or nothing, so I chose nothing. Once I set up my 125 I'll have extra space in the cabinet, and I might consider setting up a QT. Until then, my fish seem perfectly healthy.

Just look at PaulB's tank. He doesn't QT, and some of his fish are older than I am.

 

[CStrickland]

I think the last time Paul added a fish was during the carter administration, collection and wholesale is different now. You hear a lot of old timers saying the fish don't come in as healthy as they used to. I'm quite sure he isn't picking random nemos off liveaquaria.

I'm cautious in using Paul's tank as an example because it would be really hard for most of us to recreate the whole system. IDK if he is still using ocean water for his changes, but that's an example of a single factor, there's a few more. Perhaps it is his RUGF that makes it hard for ich, maybe the dolomite, maybe it is the diatom filter, maybe it's a combo. In any case, I'm careful about picking and choosing from Paul's husbandry because if you just follow the shortcuts and not the long-cuts he takes, a new reefer might be disappointed when they don't have the same result.

Most relevant here is likely the fact that Paul feeds almost exclusively live foods, some of which constantly hatch directly into the water via feeder, doesn't overstock, and isn't making many changes. That is a long-cut that's miles from what most new reefers have going on even if they are very careful about feeding and stress.

I agree that if a new reefer inherited Paul's tank they could shortcut qt, but we are not so lucky and are well-advised to take reasonable precautions to make up for that.

 

[rogeragrimes]

...I'm going FOWLR now...

Is this because it makes it easier to treat the tank if no corals are present, or some other reason? Or just that you don't want the maintenance of corals regardless of the diseases?

 

[rogeragrimes]

...Prazipro is relatively gentle on fish and fluke symptoms can be hard to spot until it's real bad.

I'm probably going to be in the treat every fish as sick camp and try to wipe out what's there if it's there. You mention Prazipro, Someone else says formalin, and I've heard Prime.

What's the most common and best way/med to remove the other things that aren't ich?

Also, is my QT plan for new fish for Ich prevention look right?:
1. Start with copper med (split full dose evenly over four days)
2. Maintain copper at 0.5 (test for it) for 4 weeks
-Change water if ammonia appears but try to avoid for 4 week cycle unless absolutely necessary.
---Do not use any ammonia reducing products (besides water changes) while copper is in water
3. Then take copper to 0 (from water changes or copperabsorb filter stuff, and observe for another 3 weeks
4. If ich appears or returns, another 7 week cycle
5. Before placing fish in DT, treat with antibiotics

 

[jrp1588]

I'm probably going to be in the treat every fish as sick camp and try to wipe out what's there if it's there. You mention Prazipro, Someone else says formalin, and I've heard Prime.

What's the most common and best way/med to remove the other things that aren't ich?

Also, is my QT plan for new fish for Ich prevention look right?:
1. Start with copper med (split full dose evenly over four days)
2. Maintain copper at 0.5 (test for it) for 4 weeks
-Change water if ammonia appears but try to avoid for 4 week cycle unless absolutely necessary.
---Do not use any ammonia reducing products (besides water changes) while copper is in water
3. Then take copper to 0 (from water changes or copperabsorb filter stuff, and observe for another 3 weeks
4. If ich appears or returns, another 7 week cycle
5. Before placing fish in DT, treat with antibiotics

Sounds exhausting. My hat's off tp you. Haha

 

[CStrickland]

IDK, I don't use copper. Generally, I think the best thing to do in the beginning is pick someone who knows what they are doing, and follow their qt to the letter. Like people medicine there can be interactions between chemicals, and setting up the tank properly is super important since the fish need a decent place to live while all this is happening. For example, you mention Prime which is very good for neutralizing ammonia so it's great in a ttm regimen because you don't need to cycle the tank, but you can't dose Prime with copper or you'll kill everything as you mentioned. I don't think you'll have zero ammonia for 4 weeks without a water change tho.

Prazipro, formalin, and metronizadole (antibiotic) are all diff medicines. There's a couple good stickies in the disease forum about what they do, and don't do.

 

[laga77]

I think we're splitting hairs here. I don't think Brieninsac and Laga were suggesting ich just materializes when fish get stressed.

You`re right I am not. In my opinion, it is extremely hard to rid any tank of all parasites, be it ICH or flukes or any other. You can use TTM or dose with Prazi and that will only decrease the odds of introducing a pest into a tank. Nothing is 100%. Now, I have read, and have observed in my own tanks, that healthy fish seldom get sick. Three years ago after an outbreak of either ICH or Brook, I made a decision too go into a different direction with my tanks. A lot of that had to do with reading what PaulB wrote about fish immunity and what people who scuba have posted about not seeing very many sick fish. Along with a lot of reading on fish nutrition, and there is not much out there. My first tank was in 1987 and back then you were pretty much on your own. You learned by trial and error and not by going on a forum. So I have no problems trying something different and not following the herd. That decision I made was to try to eliminate as much stress on the fish as possible. I did this with AWCs and improving their diet and constant monitoring. Being retired, I can do this. Funny thing happened. The fish no longer picked on the corals or clams. The amount of aggression was greatly reduced , and they no longer got sick even with minimal QT and drugs. I believe the diet had the greatest impact. You cannot feed any animal foods that they were not intended to eat and not expect problems. I believe this forum should be more of an exchange of ideas and not so many debates on which way is "better". There is always more than one way to do things. If we all started doing things the same way all the time, we will stop learning.