Why so many problems?

[Paul B]

I started a thread exactly like this a long time ago, but I can't find it.
Every time I go on here, or any forum, I just hit "New Posts" and probably 90% of the threads are about problems of some kind and there is a plethora of posts giving advice to correct those problems. I shy away from many of those threads because much of the advice I perceive as wrong and after so many years, I really don't feel like argueing. :wildone: I am getting old.
A good percentage of the posts are about some sort of spots on some creature, usually a tang, then of course someone will say, well that is an ich magnet so it can't be helped and they say to add garlic, kick ich, cleaner shrimp, hyposalinity, Vodka, Gin and Tonic, or just let the fish watch Oprah Winfrey. :facepalm: In my opinion, none of those things will work, but I try to stay quiet. If you think garlic or cleaner shrimp will cure anything, go for it.
People PM me all the time and ask a specific problem. I don't know why, maybe they think I am part fish, or I look like a fish or worse, smell like a fish, but they do ask me. I usually advise them that diet is the most important thing in this hobby and it may not cure anything, but it will get your fish in such a state of health in a couple of weeks that you may never have to post in a disease forum. Then they may say, great, but I can't get that, so can I just feed flakes? I say, no, and that is the end of the conversation. Then I see that poster on the disease forums again. It happens all the time. :hmm6:
Now, I am not the God of fish or anything else, I am a retired electrician, but if you ask for someone's advice, the person giving the advice will assume you will use at least some of it. There is no magic pill but many people make this a lot harder than it has to be. :rolleye1:
Then there is the sterility factor. Virtually all of your animals, except some designer clownfish, came from the sea. It is the same sea that is right off Florida or Bayone New jersey. The sea is not sterile and neither should your tank. If you keep everything sterile and never add anything from the sea, your fish will be like that boy in the bubble where he can't be exposed to any sort of bacteria or virus or he will die. Fish, like us, need to be exposed to these things to become immune from them. We Humans get inoculated with weak forms of these diseases to protect us from them. Fish also need to be exposed to certain things to build up an immunity.
When I go to Mexico, I get sick, the Mexican people do not get sick, guess why? In my own tank my fish are immune to almost everything (except jumping out or Rap music) How do I know? (I know, most of you are saying, I am lucky and my tank will crash by Tuesday) No it won't. But if it does, it had a good run. I feel that it is the diet and the lack of sterility that keeps it going. Luck has little to do with it. I have been trying to date a Supermodel all my life and never got lucky with that, so I know I am not lucky.
I get in trouble all the time when I say something like "Ich may, in some instances be good for your fish". Now don't go putting ich in your tank, although I can. Your fish can become immune from it, in time, if you feed them correctly. Pellets and flakes is not correct. I know many, if not all of you will disagree with me, that is fine, but lets hear how you keep fish spawning for 20 or so years. I know there are many theories and we all have our own secrets, these are mine. What are yours?
On another forum someone asked if the lifespan of gobies was just a few months? I guess that person can't keep them more than a couple of months.

 

[Rbs07fxstc]

After setting up my current tank & letting it cycle & go through the stages, I eventually got to the moment where I could finally get a fish. Found a really cool tile fish at a lfs & brought him home. After acclimation was done I picked up the fish & happily put him in the tank only to see him covered in with ich. I knew exactly what it was right away. Did my research trying to find the best solution to keep him alive. It seemed the popular thing is to have a great diet & no stress for the fish. So I bought a small variety of good food & fish ate great for a few weeks. The spots would go away mostly & sometimes come back. But it seemed anytime I messed with the tank he would again have the spots back. But eventually the fish ended up getting wedged in some rocks at bottom of the tank & didn't come out. So the best way to avoid getting ich is to just not buy fish. Yep, so now I just have a large coral tank with inverts & such. Very low stress & easy care now.

 

[Paul B]

A new tank is different and the fish will be stressed almost no matter what you do.
It is ironic that all new water is not the best thing even though some people change water every ten minutes. A stable tank that has some age on it is much more condusive for a healthy tank. If I had a new tank, I would have to quarantine or at least wave chicken bones over the tank to prevent disease as I have been there and went through more disease than the black death that killed a third of Europe. :beer:

 

[Dapg8gt]

That's a good point. I see all these tanks starting with everything dead/dry and wonder why they have so many problems and blame bulbs, fish, or the wife that Farts by the tank for all the issues.

IMHO it's putting yourself at a disadvantage right from the start and really the steps that are taken to have a "sterile" tank may in fact have been harder than dealing with some algae or those horrible coral eating bristle worms =). I find it weird how bashing and mis information spreads so quickly only to have successful and proven common sense to be questioned and mostly ignored.

 

[dkeller_nc]

About the food comment - I think you're absolutely right, flake food (or any other kind of dried, prepared food) is not appropriate as an exclusive, or even majority, diet for any fish.

My many years breeding freshwater fish taught me that it is extraordinarily difficult to bring fish to peak condition and feed only dried, prepared food. Frozen preparations (like frozen bloodworms) are a large improvement, and live food is even better (or necessary for difficult to breed fish).

The way I've characterized the live rock/dry rock choice is simply that a tank started with all dry rock and populated by coral frags is a coral garden, while a tank started with fresh live rock is more of representation of the complex ecology of a reef. The coral garden characterization isn't intended to be derogatory - many of them are quite beautiful. But there is a difference.

 

[Allmost]

I never expose to my fish

 

[power boat jim]

If stress is the biggest cause of ich and most other malodys. I dont see the point in a qt. The biggest cause of stress is being chased around by a net and removed from one tank and put into another. Only to repeat that process once the qt period is over.I have NEVER used a qt and have never had a fish die from ich or any other disease. I know this must be wrong but I have been right for the wrong reasons before. So I can say after 12 years in this hobby I still have not had to post a question in the fish forum on how or why a fish got sick.

 

[Paul B]

Jim, stress isn't the biggest cause, food is, but it is the second biggest cause, and I also feel that quarantining is a big cause of fish loses. I also would never quarantine. But "some" people with a new tank may have to until they get their system to such a state of health to where the fish will no longer need to be quarantined.
I rely on live food to keep my fish disease free and out of the 42 years my tank has been running, it has been disease free for almost 35 of those years.

Jim, I got my boat air conditioner fixed finally, of course the summer is over.
It was about $1,200.00 to fix it. I am going to call the company tuesday to argue with them as that is rediculous. I have never got anything fixed in my life and I never will again, I don't know how people pay bills like this all the time. If I couldn't fix things myself, there is no way I could have a boat.

 

[Reef Frog]

Paul, I've think I've read in past posts that you harvest NSW with lots of micro organisms fresh from the ocean. Great nutrition of course but maybe the other half of the equation is that you're importing parasites that attack the fish parasites. Maybe you've just established an unusually good and stable balance in your tanks. Of course your methods might be harder to duplicate for the fish keeper in Nebraska....

As for QT, what don't you like? QT for observation & chemical treatment if needed? Or QT and chemical treatment right away on the assumption that parasites are already present? So you would drop a new fish in the DT right away, even a Tang, without even a short isolation period for observation? And doi it without fear of wiping out your established fish? Just curious.

 

[ca1ore]

Far be it for me to argue with 35 years of disease free bliss, but I am very much in the QT camp, as I cannot claim anywhere close to that length of time. I have never had a major fish disease breakout in my DT, but I have had ich at least a half dozen times come in on new fish that has been easily handled in QT/HT. The only fish I've lost recently in QT was a Flame angel that died quickly from something I could not identify. Looked like cyanide poisoning from collection; except the fish had been at the LFS for a month. So dunno for sure.

I'm fully in agreement that proper nutrition, and water quality, will result in a healthier population of fish, but I'd view that as complementary to, rather as replacement for, QT. Just my O and E.

 

[Paul B]

Great nutrition of course but maybe the other half of the equation is that you're importing parasites that attack the fish parasites. Maybe you've just established an unusually good and stable balance in your tanks.

Thats an interesting hypothesis that I have not thought about. I can't prove it one way or another.
I don't want this to be a thread about quarantine, and if you feel you want to quarantine, then go for it.
I would, and do drop tangs, eels, flounders, crabs, NSW, mud and everything else in there with no observation. As I said, I used to quarantine everything and my tank has had every disease known to science and some science don't know about. But not for a long time. I can put an ich infected fish in my tank with no problems. (don't do that) A few years ago I invited people on here to bring their ich infected fish to my house and I would put it in my tank as an experiment, because my tank is just that, an experiment. No one complied. But that is how sure I am that my fish are immune. Most tanks are not so don't try that. I think it is from the food but it could be something else. In all my years at this I have never seen a spawning fish contract ich.
I assume they can get it, But I have never seen it. If my tank has not gotten ich in over 35 years, how long does it have to go disease free for people to believe it is immune from ich? 45 years? 50?
If I put a fish with ich in my tank, that fish may die, but so far, nothing else ever contracted it. Something is going on don't you think?
I also feel that quarantine, especially if done in a small tank is so stressful for the fish, that it will make any ich worse.
There is most likely paracites in my tank, there has to be with all the stuff I add, but maybe that low level of infection keeps the immunity going. I am not a Doctor and I don't know what is happening.:uhoh2:
I have had numerous tangs, probably every tang available in the hobby. I am not a fan of tangs, only because I find them boreing and I like the odder fish such as pipefish, mandarins, clingfish, possum wrasses, copperbands or anything with an un-fish shape.
My last hippo tang lived about ten years. After that time many of them get HLLE which is not exactly a disease but probably something caused by captivity as they don't get it in the sea. Tangs in some tanks never get it. No one knows why although there are plenty of theories.
If your fish are not spawning or making spawning jestures, they are prone to all diseases including ich. If you feed mostly dry, commercial food, your fish are prone to disease and you should quarantine.
I know many of you are shaking your head and thinking my tank is a time bomb and will get ich by next tuesday. There are dozens of people who are out of the hobby now still waiting for that tuesday when my tank crashes from ich. It could happen if something terrible goes wrong which may happen when I go on vacation for a couple of weeks. If I am not here, things can happen, but if the tank does crash from ich, it had a good run, don't you think?

 

[tanked37]

I do my best to feed the diet of my particular fish, but that is a combination of pellets, nori, frozen foods, and liquid foods (reef nutrition). Aside from this I don't know what else to feed or how to get live food? How do you get live food?

 

[flamron]

What food do you feed Paul? I'm feeding a mic of spectrum pellets, nori, and a homemade frozen buffet.

Any time a fish of mine showed any signs of ich, I just kicked the feeding into overdrive to get them over the hump. A couple weeks of heavy feeding always kept them healthy enough to maintain a healthy immunity to the ich.

 

[jdaniels175]

black worms. white worms. live collected "stuff" from Long Island.

 

[Dapg8gt]

This is a great debate and thread and although my tank is nowhere near the state of age as Pauls (only about 13) I also haven't quarantined ever. Although now after reading on reef central for the last few years I do have a QT tank readily available. I haven't had ich or any other issues in probably 10 years fwiw. Clowns and a few clown goby's are spawning also. But the kicker is I don't feed as good as you guys. I feed mostly pellet/flake and frozen. I also only randomly add new fish as the tank is relatively small and way overstocked on coral as is. I do feed good quality dry food though so I don't know.

I'm going to take the qt route for the new tank going up just to wade on the side of caution but I'm also going to be making my own food for all my fish. I just hope with that combo I will have the success that I've had with my current tank =).. My luck that next Tuesday Paul was referring too will be my new tank experience for a while in all its top of the line equipment glory.

 

[dkeller_nc]

I do my best to feed the diet of my particular fish, but that is a combination of pellets, nori, frozen foods, and liquid foods (reef nutrition). Aside from this I don't know what else to feed or how to get live food? How do you get live food?

Well, here are just a few suggestions (in addition to live black worms - you can get them from California Black Worms - http://www.aquaticfoods.com/worms.html)

- Live Brine Shrimp. You can purchase them from a place like Live Aquaria, but the best way to generate them is to grow them yourself. You feed them with commercially prepared brine shrimp food, yeast, phytoplankton, fish meal, etc...

- Live Copepods. These are remarkably easy to culture. You simply set up a small tank with an air bubbler in it (not an airstone, btw - just an airline), and feed the copepods with a commercial prep of phytoplankton, or grow the phytoplankton yourself.

- Live insect larvae. In the summer, these are as easy to generate as leaving a 5 gallon bucket of stagnant freshwater with a few drops of milk in it on your back porch. Within a few days, you will have loads of mosquito larvae to net out and feed to your fish.

- Fresh clams/oysters. This would only be relevant to bigger fish such as angels, triggers, etc... But all fresh mussels, clams and oysters at the market are still living - you simply open one the way you'd prepare it for eating yourself and place it on the tank bottom.

- Fresh table shrimp. These aren't living, of course, but the same raw, wild-caught shrimp that you eat yourself are extremely good carnivorous fish food. You simply make sure that they are fresh (smell them - they shouldn't smell like anything) and are wild-caught. Don't feed Asian-grown farmed shrimp to your fish, they are grown in pools with antibiotics/anti parasitics in high concentrations, so there is risk to your livestock from chemical toxicity and/or disease transmission.

 

[Paul B]

Aside from this I don't know what else to feed or how to get live food? How do you get live food?

I buy live worms in a pet shop although in some places you can't get them and have to order them online, I never did that. White worms I bought a culture online and keep them in a plastic shoe box, they are in dirt and multiply like crazy so you need only buy them once. Live newborn brine shrimp are the only brine shrimp you should feed. But you have to hatch them yourself, as I do every day. You don't need them unless you have pipefish, tiny fish or are raising fry. Grocery store shrimp are not a great food because you are only getting the muscle and not the guts where the nutrition is. In the US, the shrimp are cleaned of the head and guts. Clams are better because you are feeding the entire animal, along with the guts. And also forget squid, octopus, fish fillets and scallops for the same reason. Worms are good because it is an entire animal along with the guts. When you see a dead fish, the other fish eat the guts first and they don't spit out the bones as that is where fish get calcium from. We as humans don't eat bones and guts, but we are not fish and don't usually get ich.
Insect larvae is fine for freshwater fish as that is part of their diet, but not for saltwater fish.
Your fish don't really care that you can't get the proper foods and they don't need a variety, they need what they are supposed to eat. Mandarins need small live food, most fish in the sea eat live whole fish and nothing else. Most tangs also eat whole fish but they also live on seaweed.
If your fish are not spawning or showing spawning tendancies, they are not very healthy.

 

[dkeller_nc]

Actually, Paul, insect larvae are perfectly fine for saltwater fish. There are many things that you can feed fish (saltwater or freshwater) that are not a normal part of their diet that are very good for them. Black worms and white worms are a good example - neither of these are in the diet of either the typical freshwater fish that hobbyists keep nor saltwater fish.

The same could be said for Nori being fed to herbivorous tropical saltwater fish, or spirulina for that matter. Neither of these are in the diets of tropical saltwater herbivores, but both are excellent foodstuffs for these types of species.

By the way - wild caught table shrimp do have more than muscle in them, so long as they aren't de-veined, but even if they did not, it's still an excellent thing to put into our saltwater fish's diet so long as it's not fed exclusively.

 

[Paul B]

Dkeller, I have to disagree (just a little) about a few things. Insects are fine but they don't contain oil and do contain a lot of chiten or undigestable fiber which does not contribute to nutrition. Worms do contain oil and fish need oil in large quantities. All fish have a liver and that liver could be about 20% of the weight of a fish and it is almost all oil, so a 100lb fish could have almost 20lbs of pure fish oil in it. A shark's liver is about 25% of the weight of a fish. Most salt water fish live almost exclusively on other fish. If you dive, you will se them eating mostly smaller fish. So if a fish eats another fish, almost 20% of that meal is oil. So while eating insects won't kill fish, IMO they just don't have the correct nutrients of worms or whole fish.
Wile caught shrimp do have a vein and an intestine that contains poop. The guts of table shrimp are removed along with the head. That is where "most" of the nutrition is.
Of course a shrimp diet is much better than dry food, but if you can get whole, small shrimp, that is much better.

I think this picture was from the Caymans. See the fish fry to the left of that nurse shark? That is the diet of most reef fish. Whole, fresh fish, filled with oil. That is the best food, but mostly un available to us. Worms are second best as it is a whole, oil filled animal, guts and all. I have been feeding worms to fish for over fifty years and that is about the only way I am sure my fish will spawn and be disease free.



This little mandarin is about to spawn, probably today. Along with the numerous pods in my tank, she gets newborn brine shrimp every day and live white worms which she gorges on.



Spinach is not a great food and neither is nori, but there are not to many fresh seaweeds we can get. Many people have problems with tangs getting diseases. There are two reasons for this. Tangs are a schooling fish and never swim out of their school so they are extreamly stressed in a tank, also we don't have appropriate foods for them

So dkeller nc, I guess we just have to respectifully agree to disagree :beer:

 

[DiscusHeckel]

I buy live worms in a pet shop although in some places you can't get them and have to order them online, I never did that. White worms I bought a culture online and keep them in a plastic shoe box, they are in dirt and multiply like crazy so you need only buy them once. Live newborn brine shrimp are the only brine shrimp you should feed. But you have to hatch them yourself, as I do every day. You don't need them unless you have pipefish, tiny fish or are raising fry. Grocery store shrimp are not a great food because you are only getting the muscle and not the guts where the nutrition is. In the US, the shrimp are cleaned of the head and guts. Clams are better because you are feeding the entire animal, along with the guts. And also forget squid, octopus, fish fillets and scallops for the same reason. Worms are good because it is an entire animal along with the guts. When you see a dead fish, the other fish eat the guts first and they don't spit out the bones as that is where fish get calcium from. We as humans don't eat bones and guts, but we are not fish and don't usually get ich.
Insect larvae is fine for freshwater fish as that is part of their diet, but not for saltwater fish.
Your fish don't really care that you can't get the proper foods and they don't need a variety, they need what they are supposed to eat. Mandarins need small live food, most fish in the sea eat live whole fish and nothing else. Most tangs also eat whole fish but they also live on seaweed.
If your fish are not spawning or showing spawning tendancies, they are not very healthy.

Thanks for starting this thread, which is very educational.

After reading it, I stopped feeding my fish flakes.

I have two questions:

1. Some specialised flakes have immune boosters (e.g. New Era Aegis flakes). Are they also not good?

2. I feed my fish PE mysis (mysis relicta), which is very high in protein and oil. In fact it is so oily that my skimmer stops producing bubbles a few hours after each feeding session. What is your opinion on this particular mysis?

Regards

DH