WILD CAUGHT Clownfish Acclimation

[LargeAngels]

I think the QT process causes more stress and weakens them enough that you have to rely completely on the medications to rid them of any diseases, bacteria or what not. The water quality is not going to be the same in a medicated QT tank as compared to a display tank.

I think that by the time we get them the damage/infection has already been done in most cases so proactive treatment is necessary. Most of the clowns we get have gone through many systems, bagged/shipped multiple times and been exposed to numerous environments and diseases from other fish. As far as QT systems I treat mine like they were my DT. I always have some running or have some biofilters in my other tanks I can use for QT and always have saltwater on hand already mixed up.

Maybe if we plucked them right out of the ocean and right into our tanks then one with an anemone would be best.

 

[Reefvette]

Large

Large

I do agree if we plucked them out of the ocean that an anemone would be best but, when these fish are plucked from the ocean the arent put into anemones, nor at the wholesaler and most times not at a retailer.

That lack of anemone maybe what cause the exterior parasites and brook.

ill say it again i have never seen a clown with brook/ich living in an anemone.

 

[Winwood]

Not to be antaganistc but I have and have lost clowns that way.

 

[Reefvette]

Winwood

Winwood

I dont take it like that.

Were these fish sick before you got them into the anemone? or did it develop after they were in the anemone

The whole point of my thread is for info and a healthy discussion.

The whole point of a symbiotic relationship is that one needs the other for some survival trait. Clowns live in the anemone for protection and i assume that touching those tentacles constantly replace test/replaces their slime coat.

 

[jmaneyapanda]

OK, devils advocate- is an anemone necessary, or is a "host" OK? Like a Euphyllia sp.? What of inert artifical hosts? I ask, because I think a bit of a "leap of faith" is being made from having an unstressed fish to saying its unstressed because of an anemone itself. ALL fish do better when stress is minimized in arrival and acclimation. Whether it be with hiding spots, food, clean water, whatever. The presence of a host for wild clowns would surely eliminate stress, but juumping to it must be an anemone, and the elduing to how a thicker slime coat, as caused by anemone contact, seems a jump to far a jump for me.

 

[Reefvette]

J maney

J maney

I would say yes to the anemone being the only host.

Dont anemones have a kinda slime coat too?

As you can see when clowns host some LPS they get black burn spots on their skin because their scales/slime coat may not be strong enough to defend against the stings of LPS.

I dont beleive that a faux anemone helps at all because they in no way mimic a real anemones except for look.

 

[jmaneyapanda]

I would say yes to the anemone being the only host.

Dont anemones have a kinda slime coat too?

As you can see when clowns host some LPS they get black burn spots on their skin because their scales/slime coat may not be strong enough to defend against the stings of LPS.

I dont beleive that a faux anemone helps at all because they in no way mimic a real anemones except for look.

I would suggest that you are making claims that arent known to be true. For example, if you are asking if anemones have a slime coat, I'd say yes, but if youre suggesting they "share" it with damsels, I'd dispute that, as otherwise theyd share it with all other types of fish too. You appear to be suggesting that an anemone nematocyst illicits a resposne from teh clownfish to produce a thicker slime coat. If this is fact, rather than a theory of yours (and others), please provide a reference.

Also, your claim that clowns that host in Euphyllia sp. corals "get black burn spots on their skin because their scales/slime coat may not be strong enough to defend against the stings of LPS"- please provide refernces again. I have heard this many times, but as far as I can tell, its a heresay comment that is just passed along. If defintive evidence is out there showing this, please provide it.

Finally, I disgaree COMPELTELY with your assesment of faux anemones. They, in a very crucial way, provide a mimicking of real anemones. In providing a shelter for the clownfish. Have you ever seen a clown host in a clam? In a patch of zoas or anthelia? On a powerhead or empty shell? It happens all the time, because clowns feel secure in a home. Proetcted from open water. That reduction is stress plays an ENORMOUS role in disease prevention. In all, fish, as I mentioned.

Again, if you have any refernces that arent heresay accounts of "just because", please provide them. I am not doubting, I would just like to see them, and be educated, if they exist. If they dont, and this information is all from parroting comments from other aquarists theories, then, I think we are back to my original concern, of it being a leap of faith.

 

[Reefvette]

None of what i say is written fact

None of what i say is written fact

Becuase no one has studied it. Nor did i claim it to be fact but a matter of opinion with some non scientific testing.

What other fish would anemones share the slime coat with, some damsels host anemones and some cardinals but they dont host them like clowns do. They dont nustle in them and sleep in them. Maybe when they are younger.

Jmaney have you ever seen an clown host LPS and not get burns?


If faux anemones are so good how come they havent been wildly adopted. Clowns host other animals when there is no anemone present. You nor I can confirm if these surrogates host offer the same benefits and if they did why dont we find clowns in them in the wild?


Your asking for proof and again throughout this whole article i have contended that none of this is "scientific fact." NO one studies this stuff and hobbiest often have more face time with animals then scientist do. That is coming from the head of husbandry at the Baltimore Aquarium.

 

[jmaneyapanda]

Becuase no one has studied it. Nor did i claim it to be fact but a matter of opinion with some non scientific testing.

What other fish would anemones share the slime coat with, some damsels host anemones and some cardinals but they dont host them like clowns do. They dont nustle in them and sleep in them. Maybe when they are younger.

Jmaney have you ever seen an clown host LPS and not get burns?


If faux anemones are so good how come they havent been wildly adopted. Clowns host other animals when there is no anemone present. You nor I can confirm if these surrogates host offer the same benefits and if they did why dont we find clowns in them in the wild?


Your asking for proof and again throughout this whole article i have contended that none of this is "scientific fact." NO one studies this stuff and hobbiest often have more face time with animals then scientist do. That is coming from the head of husbandry at the Baltimore Aquarium.

Listen- dont get defensive. Im just discussing debating. FWIW, you state it, as if it were fact, all the things I mentioned. The rtuth is, they are NOT fact, but your opinion, correct? Then, my opinion is just as valid as yours. As is everyone elses because there is NOTHING to back it up.

As for slime coats, why would they share the slime coats with gobies, blennies, or any fish that needs protection from predators. Why are damsels and the occasion cardinal the only species to "accept" this slime coat? If that is indeed the key, it would be used by all fish, and the anemone purpose as a protector would be moot.

Yes, I have seen HUNDREDS of clowns host in LPS and not get the "burns". And I have seen clown that are NOT hosting in LPS get black spots. It is totally inconsequential. To imply it is is innaccurate in my mind, unless you have any other "evidence".

I gave numerous examples where surrogates hosts WERE employed. I ahve seen clowns host in just about anything. And that IS widely adopted. They REGULARLY host in people soft corals and LPS and inverts, and even hardware, because certain aquarists dont want anemones in their tanks. Are you denying that? Do they prefer anemones? Sure they do. It is instinctually natural. Does that mean the surrogates are non functional? Not in any way whatsoever.

So, you will admit that none of your claims have any scientific backup at all? Then what is the premise of your argument? As I have shown and stated, I have seen the exact opposite of what you have said. And in as much, your theory is discredited by mine and vice versa. So, as I said, you are making leaps of faith that are completely unfounded, and really dont bear any more credence than someone saying "they do it because I said so". Its all heresay speculation.

Is there something Im missing in this?

 

[Reefvette]

Listen- dont get defensive. Im just discussing debating. FWIW, you state it, as if it were fact, all the things I mentioned. The rtuth is, they are NOT fact, but your opinion, correct? Then, my opinion is just as valid as yours. As is everyone elses because there is NOTHING to back it up.

As for slime coats, why would they share the slime coats with gobies, blennies, or any fish that needs protection from predators. Why are damsels and the occasion cardinal the only species to "accept" this slime coat? If that is indeed the key, it would be used by all fish, and the anemone purpose as a protector would be moot.

Yes, I have seen HUNDREDS of clowns host in LPS and not get the "burns". And I have seen clown that are NOT hosting in LPS get black spots. It is totally inconsequential. To imply it is is innaccurate in my mind, unless you have any other "evidence".

I gave numerous examples where surrogates hosts WERE employed. I ahve seen clowns host in just about anything. And that IS widely adopted. They REGULARLY host in people soft corals and LPS and inverts, and even hardware, because certain aquarists dont want anemones in their tanks. Are you denying that? Do they prefer anemones? Sure they do. It is instinctually natural. Does that mean the surrogates are non functional? Not in any way whatsoever.

So, you will admit that none of your claims have any scientific backup at all? Then what is the premise of your argument? As I have shown and stated, I have seen the exact opposite of what you have said. And in as much, your theory is discredited by mine and vice versa. So, as I said, you are making leaps of faith that are completely unfounded, and really dont bear any more credence than someone saying "they do it because I said so". Its all heresay speculation.

Is there something Im missing in this?

In regards to slime coat. Evolution. darwinism. Somehow clowns figured out that anemones are a great partener and evolved to live in the and rely on them. Some cardinals and damsels have too.

I guess gobies just arent smart enough or maybe its because they evolved to have their colors blend in with their back ground. Just like sharks are white on the bottum and grey on top, so they blend in.

Just because a surrogate is being use doesnt mean it is serviing the same purpose or offers the same help. A clown who host zoas in the wiild isnt going to blend in and certainly will not be getting same back.

The point your missing is that clowns choose anemones in the wild exclusively! They dont host LPS or Zoas. This is a mutually beneficial relationship or it wouldnt exist.

The reason for this discussion is that i dont think that the QT process for Wild clowns is so clear cut and dry. I personally have have lots of luck with out normal Qt, i feel that the addition of a host anemone to a wild caught clowns strongly adds in their health and well being.

I dont consider my expeirences to be scienfitic but from my past qt expierences and my present im have more success from the later.

That is good for something just like your expiernces are. They shed a contradictory view, which you state strongly. This was meant to be a discussion of expeirences and different views. I didnt ask for proof of yours cause i dont consider your views to be expert either. I never stated in any of my replies that it was fact, only my expeirences.

BTW hows that "white" carpet from divers den doing? Check out that link man. Im not trying to be a argumentative person but i told you that anemone was bleached and sick and it died. FACT
http://www.marineaddicts.com/showthread.php?104-As-promised

 

[Winwood]

I had an established of true perculas being hosted by a large mag. I recieved an absolutely stunning pair of white tailed chrysopterus from BZA, actually IMO the most beautiful pair of clowns I have ever seen, just flawless! I was so enamored with these fish that I placed them into a 29 gallon tank on the same system as the percs. The two fish hosted immediately and began eating the next day.

Everything was going great until around day 4, that is when the large female chry stopped feeding and began breathing quite rapidly. She then developed the white stringy "poop." I lost her the next day followed by the smaller male the day after that. Unfortuneately it then spread to my percs and I lost tem as well.

The only other fish in the system were a group of chromis and a leopard wrasse. None of those fish showed any signs of disease. However I had learned my lesson and since then I do my best to QT all of my fish.

 

[frydaddy]

I'll try to sum up my experience as short as I can (experience the key word, not fact). I have tried many different ways of QTing wild caught clowns over the last 10 or so years.

I've tried just about every theory on QTing clowns to date. I've had just as many clowns do well as bad in every one of those theories. Everyone has their own opinions on what the best QT process is. I have yet to see or hear of one that works consistently everytime, if there was, we wouldn't be having this discussion. We'd all be using it. Most QT methods people are using are based on theories, not facts.

My thought is this. Does putting a blue stripe clown in to a small bare bottom tank that is treated with meds and chemicals (formalin, copper, rid-ich, what ever you use) do as much harm as good? Could that cause enough stress in itself to make it more difficult for the clown to improve it's health? And if you put a clown into a much less stressful environment, would they improve on their own?

Which goes to my next thought. How many people truly know what ailment their clown actually has, test for that, verify it, treat it and verify that the treatment worked and not any other factor? Most people go by the overall health signs and assume what the ailment is and treat according to their preferred theory on QT.

 

[Reefvette]

Blue stripe

Blue stripe

Ive got this blue stripe clown for four days and no heavey breathing, he host four small bta clones and eats like a pigs.

Thats my expierence so far.

 

[jmaneyapanda]

In regards to slime coat. Evolution. darwinism. Somehow clowns figured out that anemones are a great partener and evolved to live in the and rely on them. Some cardinals and damsels have too.

I guess gobies just arent smart enough or maybe its because they evolved to have their colors blend in with their back ground. Just like sharks are white on the bottum and grey on top, so they blend in.

Just because a surrogate is being use doesnt mean it is serviing the same purpose or offers the same help. A clown who host zoas in the wiild isnt going to blend in and certainly will not be getting same back.

The point your missing is that clowns choose anemones in the wild exclusively! They dont host LPS or Zoas. This is a mutually beneficial relationship or it wouldnt exist.

The reason for this discussion is that i dont think that the QT process for Wild clowns is so clear cut and dry. I personally have have lots of luck with out normal Qt, i feel that the addition of a host anemone to a wild caught clowns strongly adds in their health and well being.

I dont consider my expeirences to be scienfitic but from my past qt expierences and my present im have more success from the later.

That is good for something just like your expiernces are. They shed a contradictory view, which you state strongly. This was meant to be a discussion of expeirences and different views. I didnt ask for proof of yours cause i dont consider your views to be expert either. I never stated in any of my replies that it was fact, only my expeirences.

BTW hows that "white" carpet from divers den doing? Check out that link man. Im not trying to be a argumentative person but i told you that anemone was bleached and sick and it died. FACT
http://www.marineaddicts.com/showthread.php?104-As-promised

Ha! You are very amusing. Do you even understand what you are saying? Evolution? Darwinism? Do you understand those principles at all? Because those terms more apply to MY argument than yours. If the Slime coat is shared from the anemone to the fish, then WHY did only a small few fish "figure this out"? And what point does your countershading have to do with any of this? My point in this is as follows. If the ability to reside in the anemone is shared from the anemone to the fish, then more than damsels and a few other would do it. THAT is evolution. The idea that the anemone somehow give something to clowns and clowns only is laughable and ridiculous to me. Where is my proof that they dont? Push a blenny in a carpet anemone. If your theory is sound, the anemone will "give" its slime to the blenny, and they will live happily ever after. Let me know how it goes. Are you now REALLY claiming that only clowns host in anemones because they are the only fish smart enough??!! Really? Ha!

Because the surrogate is being used as the same purpose, that does show its being used for the same purpose. The anemone is a retreat and home for wild clowns. The surrogate serves the same purpose. Is it as good? Likely not. But, no one is arguing that. Why you seem so hung up on this is absurd. No one disputes it. Clowns host anemones in the wild because they have a mutually beneficial relationship with them, that they do not have with other inverts. The anemone protects the clown from some predators, and the clown protects the anemone from some predators. Mutualism. But, what does this have to do with any of your theory? Nothing at all.

I wouldnt disgaree AT ALL that an anemone will aid in QT of wild clowns. But that isnt what you said. You said clowns with anemones dont need QT, because the anemone negates the possibility of disease. I disagreed, and said you are making a leap of faith in assuming the anemone = no disease. I also claimed a number of imprecise conclusions with no foundation whatsoever. Maybe you need to clarify for me. What exactly is your theory? That clownfish in anemones dont get disease? Or that clownfish in anemones appear to do better through QT in the presence of anemones? because those are two COMPLETELY different statements.

Ive never stated my views to be expert, but on the same note, I would NEVER make the assertions, deductions, and statements as fact that you have, with no information, data, or rationale to back it up, other than speculation.

As for the white anemone, you MUST be right. The ONLY reason any anemones ever die is from bleaching. And they die in quick order. They never suffer from any other ailments or otherwise. Even in the thread you linked he said the shipping waters were very very hot and poor. But thats inconsequential. Youre right, it was bleaching that killed it. thats the ONLY thing it couldve been. That must be the FACT youre speaking of. Tell me, when you did teh necropsy on this dead anemone to deduce it died of bleaching, what were your findings?

Why dont you read what so many others have said in this thread as well. Clownfish hosting in anemones get diseases and die. It happens ALL the time. This alone, debunks your theory.

 

[phender]

I have been keeping clowns for over 40 years. This doesn't make my opinions fact, it just means I have a lot of different experiences. For the first 20 years I did no QT. Fish went straight into tanks with anemones. All fish appeared heathy to start. It was not uncommon for me to lose fish to brook that developed after a few days in a healthy anemone tank. This was especially common with true percs. I started using QT when I started keeping species like chysopterus, nigripes and leucs. When I get them I do a formalin dip, then a 10-20 min. freshwater bath and they go into a untreated, low salinity 10 gal tank with an aged sponge filter and lots of hiding places. A couple of times I've had to repeat the dip/bath process, but my loses have been minimal compared to doing nothing.
A couple years ago I wanted to get a mate for my female leuc that I had had for a couple years. I couldn't find another leuc so I bought a small sandaracinos instead. I figured orange skunks are tough. You very rarely see one that looks sick. I will just put him straight in with the female. Well, I was right. Orange skunks are tough. Unfortunately, the female leuc contracted brook and because I couldn't catch her in time, she died. QT from now on for me.

 

[Reefvette]

Wow

Wow

Jmaney,
Clownfish evolved to live in Anemones, Other fish probably tried and got eaten by the anemone. Over time the clowns with the strongest slime coat obviously lived and adapted to live in side the anemone. Other fish obviously couldnt live inside the anemone once the clown chose it, it defends it from predators.

I am assuming that it would take some degree of intelligence to find a workable host that will proivide you what traits you lack. So yes clownfish obviously are somewhat intelligent. Or according to the article being able to smell your way home.
http://www.divenews.com/modules.php?op=modload&name=News&file=article&sid=6495

Thats evolution and darwinism is the survival of the stronger slime coated fish to live in the anemone Theoretically.Those other fish evolved and developed other traits to survive. Like gobys and sharks.

You can theorize that the surrogate is being used for the same purpose but you dont know for a fact. why dont clowns use surrogates in the wild?

I said that an anemone can help prevent and cure diseases.

As for the white anemone, you kept telling people it was healthy and because of who was selling it, it was good to go. Its wasnt, it was bleached and that is a sign of bad health. bleached anemones are weaker. Shipping that anemone as healthy was bad judgement and of course it died because it was't in top condition to begin with.

Ive recieved anemones with no water and some times murky warm water. Either way it should have never been sent.

WHO ARE YOU to diagnose an anemones has healthy? How did you know? You seems so sure on facebook

I dont understand why you keep insisting that what i say i have ever lead any one to beleive is scientific fact. Its my expeirence.


Go commence Hatred somewhere else.

 

[jmaneyapanda]

Jmaney,
Clownfish evolved to live in Anemones, Other fish probably tried and got eaten by the anemone. Over time the clowns with the strongest slime coat obviously lived and adapted to live in side the anemone. Other fish obviously couldnt live inside the anemone once the clown chose it, it defends it from predators. Thats evolution and darwinism is the survival of the stronger slime coated fish to live in the anemone Theoretically. Those other fish evolved and developed other traits to survive. Like gobys and sharks

You can theorize that the surrogate is being used for the same purpose but you dont know for a fact. why dont clowns use surrogates in the wild?

I said that an anemone can help prevent and cure diseases.

As for the white anemone, you kept telling people it was healthy and because of who was selling it, it was good to go. Its wasnt, it was bleached and that is a sign of bad health. bleached anemones are weaker. Shipping that anemone as healthy was bad judgement and of course it died because it was't in top condition to begin with.

Ive recieved anemones with no water and some times murky warm water. Either way it should have never been sent.

WHO ARE YOU to diagnose an anemones has healthy? How did you know? You seems so sure on facebook

I dont understand why you keep insisting that what i say i have ever lead any one to beleive is scientific fact. Its my expeirence.


Go commence Hatred somewhere else.

Oh, so you own this thread and forum now? I have to go elsewhere? Sorry, I think I'll stay and continue DISCUSSING.

The process of evolution youre describing is quite impractical. You say clowns entered the anemone and others "were eaten". Why? If the anemone is "giving" the slime to the clowns to protect them (as you have claimed), why not to other fish too? I have no doubts that clowns have evolved to live in anemones. But the methodolgy you claim (in the anemones giving slime to the clowns) is what I am disputing. Why? Why the clowns? And no other fish?

I do know the surrogates are used for the same purpose. It is visible fact!!! What is the clownfish diving into the head of Euphyllia sp. coral, then? If it is not using it as a host? It is, we can see it, therefore, it is using it as a surrogate host. It is the same purpose. It may not yield as many benefits, but it is the same purpose. Perhaps you should look up tehedefinition of surrogate.

You say that anemones can help prevent and cure diseases....by what method? I said that was a leap of faith to deduce that the sliming and stinging properties of the anemone itself were the agent. That perhaps it is the comfort, and lack of stress provided to the clown by an anemone that helps the clown defeat such disease. And if so, then surrogates, which would also provide the same security and lack of stress, could also do so. To which you said, "I dont beleive that a faux anemone helps at all because they in no way mimic a real anemones except for look". Hence, our debate.

As for the white anemone, we are back at the same point. Do I think the anemone WAS healthy? yes I do. And I still do. And you dont. Who am I to diagnose the health of the anemone? Not the right person. Who is the right person? The sellers. And they said it was healthy. And they have a pristine track record for making such decisions. And THAT was my point. The fact that it died immediately after shipment plays NO ROLE whatsoever is deciding one way or the other. In fact, the recipient said the delivery was delayed, and the water was excessively warm. Stress on the anemone? Yes. Could that kill a "healthy" green anemone? YES! Your biggest problem is that you dont decipher between your opinion and fact. You CANNOT state things as fact, if you cannot prove them. And in this case, you cant, whatsoever. If you are going to state your opinion, and in the same breath, say "this is true", then you shoudl expect people to question it. And if you cant answer the questions, then it invalidates what youre saying.

This rant has gone so far offstream. Like I said, maybe you shoudl read through what others have posted, and ask yourself, "if my theory is sound, and anemones will negate the need for QT, and kill off disease, then why are so many other losing clowns that are kept in anemones?"

 

[bues0022]

Really guys, is the ****ing match over yet?

The OP was merely attempting to put up some "food for thought" not claim something as absolute. I find that nearly every time someone claims something as absolute there is another with the opposite viewpoint. It is an interesting idea "wild caught clownfish in the presence of an anemone are less prone to illness during QT". People have obviously had experiences both ways, so lets stop one-upping each other in a grade-school argument.

Let's drop the argument and appreciate the tiny bit of insight that can be taken out of this thread as another experience shared and more information "on the books". You can silently interpret the results on your own without divulging so far from the original context of this post.

 

[jmaneyapanda]

Thanks dad. Im realistically done with this thread anyway. As you can see from my first post, I merely wanted to input food for thought.

 

[Toddrtrex]

I am sitting (( should say lying )) in a hospital bed, and pretty drugged up on pain meds, so can't say I was able to completely comprehend every word of each post but... Reefvette --- you need to learn how to have a discussion, just because someone doesn't agree with your OPINION doesn't mean that they are wrong and full of hatred.

BTW --- I have received healthy APPEARING Haddoni from DD (( which I fully support )) that didn't make it. Can't just go by the appearance of the anemone as a cause of its death.