Will this sump design work?

I have heard the skimmer debate, but not for a while(also haven't been looking for it).

Some people say 3x, some say use the rated size, I honestly don't know who to believe. The people say that when using a skimmer, go larger than you need to so that it will always be able to pull the skimmate out, even when there isn't much. Some people that say to up-size say it is because the skimmer's are often over-rated, or are rated for PERFECT conditions, which you will likely not see.

The people who say to go with a size very close to your tank, say that the reason people USED to upsize, was because the pump mfg's USED to over-rate them, but now that has changed, and the ratings are accurate.

IMO, if you are using a 90 gallon system, but plan to go to a 150 gallon system get something rated for about 200 gallons. It will be overpowered for the 90 gallon system, but just about right for the 150.

I have a 20 gallon system, and a 75gallon hang-on eshopps skimmer. That is roughly 3x smaller than the rated capacity. Without additions, and feeding(was at the end of the cycle with nothing to really feed) I could go 7 days without emptying the skimmer. I think that's because there was little for a skimmer of that capacity to skim. I think somewhere near 1.5 capacity gives you the safety of getting a lot of skimmate when there are a lot of dissolved proteins, and not too much that it will be running for days without producing skimmate.
 
You should setup the flow something like the image below. Feed the fuge with the return line via a ballvalve to control the flow through the fuge. I'm not going to get into the whole discussion of what skimmer to use since that is not what you original post was about.

tempflow.jpg
 
hey daimyo, why would you want the refugium after the return pump? And is that with a much smaller pump? If not, you still don't have enough contact time for the skimmer OR the chiller. When going with a smaller pump, why wouldn't you swap where the fuge and return pump segments are?
 
What type of chiller are you using? I dont see a problem with the second drawing, however IMO... i would use the layout of the 3rd drawing and the plumbling of the second drawing, try to put that chiller coil or pump / return in the skimmer section as well, utilize the "skimmer" section as a micro algae section (you will be happy you did it).
As far as the skimmer goes... I always go bigger.. you know you are gonna want a bigger tank down the road... and it never hurts to have too big of a skimmer!
as far as the return pump... put a gate valve behind it and throttle the pump back :)
Just my 10cents.
Good luck!
 
If possible you want the water going into the chiller to be as clean as possible so the lines don't clog over time. Also, having the chiller first in the line is a waste. The water will just warm up as it works it way back to the tank. The chiller should be last in line.
 
Chiefsurfer said:
hey daimyo, why would you want the refugium after the return pump? And is that with a much smaller pump? If not, you still don't have enough contact time for the skimmer OR the chiller. When going with a smaller pump, why wouldn't you swap where the fuge and return pump segments are?
Click to expand...

Putting the fuge on the right gives him control of the flow into the fuge area when using the return pump to supply it. The Return Pump size isn't different or determined in my sketch, this was just a fast sketch in Photoshop, so the dimensions/gph are not set for each chamber.

Control of flow/gph into and through the fuge is what I laid out above. There are several different ways to setup a sump/fuge, with 2 popular setups being:
drain > fuge > return - no control of flow through the fuge. The return pump determines flow through the entire sump/drain system.
drain > return < fuge - total control of flow through the fuge via a ball valve. Being that the fuge is fed by the return line and a ball valve for control of flow, the only areas determined by the return pump are the drain and return areas (in the OP's image "Skimmer and Chiller" section).

As far as contact time with the skimmer and chiller (but that's another monster discussion), it's in the quote below. "Most of the water runs right past the skimmer! Even with a very weak return pump, the water pumped into the skimmer is only a portion of the body of water traveling into the next compartment". The same would apply to the chiller, unless the OP plans on draining/plumbing all 100% of the drain water from the DT directly into the skimmer, then directly into the chiller, which then drains into the fuge, and finally into the return pump area. Only a portion of the water will be going through the skimmer and chiller in both his and my images.

If using a return pump with less gph, then his only change would be that his turnover rate would rely more on PH's in the DT.

There's a million reason for this and that, but staying on topic here, my reason for posting what I think to be a good setup was just to help aid the OP with his original post question :) He may choose to have a set gph through his entire sump or not. Even as I wrote this response to your questions, there were 2 more posts in this thread.

KingwoodMarcia makes a good point also, as to placement of the chiller.



This is quoted from Melev'sReef: http://www.melevsreef.com/make_a_sump.html
What is the best layout?

There are a number of ways to configure the compartments, including some comments:

Skimmer > Refugium > Return

This is a simple layout that keeps the flow going in one direction. One objection often voiced is that “you don’t want to skim out the nutrients in the water going to the refugium.” This isn’t possible to do, unless every drop of water had to go through the skimmer to get into the refugium. Most of the water runs right past the skimmer! Even with a very weak return pump, the water pumped into the skimmer is only a portion of the body of water traveling into the next compartment.

Benefit - all baffles are the same height.

Skimmer > Return < Refugium

In this situation, the two outer compartments receive their water from two sources (or one supply line that has been split), and pour into the central compartment.

Benefit - Refugium wall can be taller, and the amount of water flowing through it can be controlled with a ball valve.

Refugium > Skimmer > Return

This is a bad idea in my opinion, because the micro fauna (copepods, amphipods and more) that you hope to send up to your display tank as food are going to be skimmed out of the water before they ever reach the Return zone. If this is your layout, have the refugium drain via PVC pipe directly into the Return zone, bypassing the skimmer zone.

Benefit - none.
 
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You don't need a smaller pump going with Daimyo's sketch.
That is exactly what I was talking about.
There is no data backing up the whole skimmer contact time thing. It's only theory and speculation.
 
Where does the detritus come from ?
The display tank ? I guess I am not sure of what you mean by detritus....

This sump thing is still new to me....

Thanks
Cam
 
Where does the detritus come from ?
The display tank ? I guess I am not sure of what you mean by detritus....
Click to expand...
Detritus is, without getting into another huge conversation, uneaten food and fish poop.

And as mentioned here:
Teeing the drain line into the refugium leads to detritus build-up.
Click to expand...

It would come from the drain going directly into the fuge with no mechanical filtration to remove it.

Easiest way to explain it, think of your toilet. You go in there, do your thing and flush away #2. Now, #2 makes it's way to the cities waste treatment center and sits in a giant "chamber" until it is ultimately filtered out of the water.

If running the drain directly into the fuge area, the above example is what will eventually happen. Detritus is kept suspended in the DT by way of the Powerheads, until at some point it makes it into the overflow and down the drain, where it is captured by some sort of Mechanical Filtration, be it a Sponge or Filter Sock.
 
thanks for the explenation of the set-up daimyo. If you say contact time is a myth, then I believe your setup completely. Sounds like the best option.
 
Well, it's not that contact time is a myth, but it's just a big long drawn out conversation. As mentioned by cdbias2, there is a ton of theory and speculation behind it, but that's a conversation not intended for this thread.

Best recommendation on a skimmer for skimate production and contact time for each particular owner... Majority rule after asking here in the forums. Since I had my very first reef tank years ago, I've always taken the advice of friends, and then when the web came along, I added opinions of the world to that.
 
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Thanks all again for taking the time and the advice. I went to see the new place again today and found out that the area for sump#1 is much smaller that I thought, and that there's probably not enough room to work around the skimmer. That being said, I guess I can only put refugium there. So would this design be okay? How about the baffles?

sumpdesign4-1.jpg


cmacld said:
What type of chiller are you using?
Click to expand...
It's a titanium coil that sits right in the tank.
 
baffles - Over, under, over. like in your second image :thumbsup:

Curious, where are you putting your heater?
 
We've got no winter.
Click to expand...
I thought the same thing when I moved from NY to Florida... below 30 the other night...grrrr lol

After looking at your last image, 1 thing:

I'm thinking you wouldn't even need baffles between the chiller and return pump since the water depth will be the same for those 2 chambers, but it doesn't hurt to have a "safety net".

Would like to see some pics when you get it all setup.
 
spleify said:
The only thing I would change is, before the return pump you only have two baffles that go over, under. I would add another one, so they will go over, under, over.

Other than that it looks good.

Good luck
Click to expand...

What is the purpose of the baffles. I have a 90 gal sump that has no baffles. What benefit will I have if I add them.... are they necessary?
 
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