Will this water be too pure?

[riley290]

So I have the chance to take home the water purification system from work and I was checking to see if I could use it. It is schedule E1 electronic grade water and with newly broken in media it reads .000352ppm. Here's the schematic of how it works.

Water from outside line comes in and is pumped through a dual media filter as well as a carbon filter. The water is then passed through a cation exchanger followed by an anion exchanger. The water is then dumped into a storage container. The container has a float switch and water will fill once this container has a low volume. Now comes the actual filtration. In the storage container there is a closed loop with the filtration membranes that runs continuously. Water flows from the tank through a 125W 185nm UV lamp then to another dual filter media and onto a 96W 254nm UV lamp. The water then proceeds to .45 micron filter and then a .2 micron filter. The water is pumped back to the storage tank. There is a nitrogen blanket that I would probably take off as I don't want to have to buy the nitrogen.

Otherwise they have membranes and media to last about 180,000 gallons so I wouldn't have to buy any for a long while with my small system. I know its overkill but I'd hate to see them throw this system out.

 

[BeanAnimal]

I would hate to pay to run it.

Why not sell the thing and purchase equipment that makes sense.

 

[o.c.d.]

What is the purpose for this type of filtration,For aquarium it sounds crazy.It can't be just for drinking.I'm guessing it's for mmmmmaybe Vodca production?

 

[JaredWaites]

I'm with BeanAnimal,

I see no purpose of having water this pure...why not sell the system on Ebay and make a ton and buy a RO/DI unit.

To answer your question, do I think it will be too pure?

No, I think it will work great for your system, but its indeed overkill having U.V. sterilizers on a water filtration unit, unless your producing something for human consumption.

 

[mesocosm]

Re: Will this water be too pure?

Greetings All !

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11189898#post11189898 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by riley290
So I have the chance to take home the water purification system from work and I was checking to see if I could use it. It is schedule E1 electronic grade water ...

Oooo ... lab grade water purification system toy ... SWEET !

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11191629#post11191629 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by o.c.d.
What is the purpose for this type of filtration, For aquarium it sounds crazy. It can't be just for drinking. ...

For folks who aren't familiar with this level of water toy, it's the kind of unit that is typically used when doing stuff like electrophoresis, ultra-trace analysis ... and has wide ranging application in the realm of molecular biology (... cell culture, DNA sequencing, in-vitro fertilization ... et cetera).

Here's an example of the kind of unit riley290 is pondering:
http://www.mmedical.it/pdf/PURELABUltraBrochure.pdf

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11189898#post11189898 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by riley290
... Water from outside line comes in and is pumped through a dual media filter as well as a carbon filter. The water is then passed through a cation exchanger followed by an anion exchanger. The water is then dumped into a storage container. The container has a float switch and water will fill once this container has a low volume. Now comes the actual filtration. In the storage container there is a closed loop with the filtration membranes that runs continuously. Water flows from the tank through a 125W 185nm UV lamp then to another dual filter media and onto a 96W 254nm UV lamp. The water then proceeds to .45 micron filter and then a .2 micron filter. The water is pumped back to the storage tank. There is a nitrogen blanket that I would probably take off as I don't want to have to buy the nitrogen.

No, this kind of system wil not yield water that is "too pure" ... whatever that means. I'm currently putting together a similar unit for my aquaculture project(s). The only fundamental difference between our designs is the storage container filtration components in my configuration ... they're not needed for what I'm doing. If you haven't thought of these, do consider:
(1) You will be able to produce fantastically reliable standard solutions for a variety of parameters (assuming you've got, or have access to, an equally serious precision scale);
(2) Live food cultures. If you're interested in culturing microorganisms (like ciliates), phytoplankton and/or zooplankton ... this type of unit will save you a lot of time, irritation, and expense when making batch culture solutions.

BTW ... the nitrogen blanket is overkill. :lol:

For folks who were wondering ... a "nitrogen blanket" describes the prevention strategy which pumps nitrogen into the empty space of the storage container with the intent of excluding airborne and/or gaseous contaminants.

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11189898#post11189898 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by riley290
... Otherwise they have membranes and media to last about 180,000 gallons so I wouldn't have to buy any for a long while with my small system. I know its overkill but I'd hate to see them throw this system out.

If the cation/anion exchangers are rechargeable, I don't see any reason that this type of unit would be significantly more expensive to operate than the "typical" hobbyist-grade RODI units. Dependent upon the efficiencies of the various components, it could average out to be less expensive per gallon ... particularly if the cation/anion exchangers produce 0 waste water.

And if the unit is "free" to you ... well ... :smokin:


One caveat about this kind of system ... they typically strip significant amounts of TOC (total organic carbon) from the water. You may want to consider supplementing a weak carbon source if your tank's bacteria don't appear to be as efficient with nitrification/denitrification as you would like.




JMO ... HTH
:thumbsup:

 

[riley290]

thank you mesocosm, that's what I was looking for. I was worried about the carbon stripping but I dont think it will be that big of a deal. The system is actually very cheap to run with no waste water. I figured the way I would run it would be to fill the storage tank and cut off the closed loop and when I was ready to use some water I can turn the UV and pump back on. Im pretty sure Ill save myself a lot of money in the long run as there is enough membranes, bulbs and media to last about 5 years (most likely the rest of the lifespan of the unit).

And yes mesocosm it is like the unit you posted but built DIY (as we do everything at this company) and can process about 750gpd. Of course I stripped the pumps that came with it to save on electricity as Ill cut production back to a maximum of 80gpd.

Unfortunately this cannot be sold (on ebay or privately) as a part of our government contract, after 3 years we have to replace and either destroy or donate the unit. Most of these regulations are tied to the fact that we work with highly viscous and exotic biological agents (think anthrax) and crazy laws regarding revenue off of government spending, blah blah blah.

BTW my job is the greatest place in the world for an aquarist. I bring my water in to test weekly (with ppt resolution) and maintain bacterial cultures of nitrosoma and nitrobacter in the microlab. Ive been given 2 x 1000W and 1 400W electronic MH ballasts. We build our own pumps and the electronics group built me a souped up version of the AC Jr with email and SMS capability. Had I known this I would have entered this hobby much earlier.

 

[BeanAnimal]

Of course it will cost more to run. It has pumps and UV. It will cost significantly more to run than a standard RO/DI unit.

Have fun with your new toy.

 

[riley290]

So if I take the cost of purchasing a new RO/DI unit plus fittings plus replacement membranes plus replacement resin for the next 5 years it will cost more than if I run two UV lights and 3.33gph pump for 6 hours a week? wow, you need a new utilities company.

And I wish this was a new toy, Ive pumped probably around 500,000g in the last few years with it.

In talks right now to see if I can take the photovoltaics that I built to run the unit home with me. My current solar farm in the backyard averages about .9kW/day yearly but i would love to bump that up to 1.5-1.7kW

 

[BeanAnimal]

I am not quite sure how to take your remarks...

You listed 221W of UV and listed "pumps". So a logical assumption would be that the unit draws around 300W. You did not mention that the devices were timed and instead gave the impression that they run 24/7. I made my comments based on YOUR description of the filter system.

So lets assume $.10 per kWh The unit would use 7.2 kWh per day or $0.72 a day. That is $21 a month. THAT is the reference for my comments.

So you will run it for 6 hours a day, that would be a little over $5.00 a month to operate. Not bad if the consumables are free (or as it stands another tax payer is footing the bill).

Enjoy the new toy... I am glad we could help purchase and maintain it for you

 

[riley290]

Ha, I wish this was taxpayer money, then I could stop trying to sell all of these damn fuel cells!

Yeah, my descriptions were a little off but I've tweaked the system a bit and did some work with the electrical guys up at work and they are "almost" (yeah, what does that mean guys?) sure I can 100% from the fotovol that I have, which would be awesome.

Next big project will be to chop down these damn pecan trees so I can add solar to the roof, maybe in 5-7 years I can get off of the grid.

 

[BeanAnimal]

You can send a fuel cell this way if you have extras. I see Honda just announced their first production fuel cell car.

 

[chrissreef]

"No waste water"

That's what I liked seeing. I agree about the water not being too pure.

What do these suckers go for?

I've always wanted to shower in water that wasn't "hard" or "soft" - maybe you can let me know what I'm missing?

I'll trade you a brand new RO/DI unit if you want =)

 

[riley290]

and thank god, we worked on one of their membrane predecessors for 6 years now. Hopefully in the future it'll catch on, as you can tell i'm fully on board the alternative energy bus. To tell you the truth its more that I like to use energy and want to keep the cost down, but the environmental benefits more than push me towards the progressive on those issues.

Ha, you'd never want to pay the initial cost. And to tell you the truth we can't drink it. I don't know the specifics about that but large amounts of it aren't good, they mess with the digestive tract's cell membranes and transport if exposed after a while. I don't know if that's true but that's what we're told.

 

[BeanAnimal]

You would have to drink one hell of a lot of DI water to create a problem. The bigger risk is that it contains no chlorine and therefore could breed bacteria.

Fuel cells... they rock. Solar, I am not at all convinced (even with the new generation of cells). Don't tell a tree hugger your cutting down trees to put up your array

 

[riley290]

really? I like my solar better because its less maintenance. When I notice the production going down I'll rinse down the photo inlet and it kicks back in. We have rain decently regular but after Hurricane Rita the photos kept the power on at the house for 2 days during rolling blackouts. Its great insurance for the tank and servers I run.

Also, its not bacteria that's the problem as little to nothing can pass through .2 microns (in fact, this filter doesn't even catch whole organisms, just aggregates of biomolecules). Go check an MSDS for reagent grade water, I never have but apparently they have the hospital you can call for that info. In our micro lab we have to test sterility of all water sources and almost no contamination is ever found in the sDIDI and EW1 water, except a few extremophiles who I'm very fond of as I conducted my PhD research on them.

 

[BeanAnimal]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11215994#post11215994 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by riley290
really? I like my solar better because its less maintenance. When I notice the production going down I'll rinse down the photo inlet and it kicks back in. We have rain decently regular but after Hurricane Rita the photos kept the power on at the house for 2 days during rolling blackouts. Its great insurance for the tank and servers I run.

I don't have a problem with the concept of solar, I have a problem with the real world costs vs benefit. Of course if I could get a free system, I would be more than happy to put it to use. Take away the subsidy and add the maintenance (battery and inverter), and for most folks the payoff would never happen. I am sure that will change in the not so distant future as output capacity per density increases.

Also, its not bacteria that's the problem as little to nothing can pass through .2 microns (in fact, this filter doesn't even catch whole organisms, just aggregates of biomolecules). Go check an MSDS for reagent grade water, I never have but apparently they have the hospital you can call for that info. In our micro lab we have to test sterility of all water sources and almost no contamination is ever found in the sDIDI and EW1 water, except a few extremophiles who I'm very fond of as I conducted my PhD research on them.

Yes but the water is easily contaminated (as opposed to "tap" water or similar) becuase it is ion hungry AND has nothing to kill bacteria.

 

[mountaindew]

Hey bean,
pv is getting better all the time, and in colorado no battery required. you just grid connect and turn your meter backwards during day and forwards at night. still life cycle cost is higher based on todays rates but over the 20+ year life cycle who knows, just guessing the kwhr cost does not go down in that time

 

[old salty]

I just replaced the pump in a similar unit to the one you have; it was over $500. The real kicker is that the pump looks identical to the $120 one that I use at home, except for a built in on/off switch.

Medical grade equipment costs a fortune for repairs.

 

[Ranzan]

kind of off topic but im looking into buying solar equipment for tanks and kind of a ease on my power bill as im starting a medium sized propagation project any tips on were to get good solar equipment.. Thanks

 

[matt_54351]

more and more grids are becoming backwards compatible, so you can skip batteries all together. sell off any excess power during the day, buy power at night.

as far as water too pure, i have been using chem lab grade ro/di water since starting my tank and have had no problems. i dont know that it is as pure as what you have, but is defiantly better than your average filtration system.