Xenia refugium vs. ATS

[guserto4]

I am planning my revised tank system for the new house and after reviewing all my saved literature in designing a robust system, I remembered stumbling on the idea of a Xenia refugium. Certainly the Xenia component would look attractive, but it doesn't seem to be utilized that often and I'm trying to determine if that is due to efficiency or anything else. I was intent on incorporating an ATS component, but if I consider a Xenia refug., am I putting the two at odds with each other? (Xenia first, ATS second in system cycle?)

Is this Xenia idea similar to the idea of a system component full of aptasia as (I believe) the great Mr. Wilson philosophized in intelligent & logical detail? Let nature be nature, just provide a place for it and the unavoidable excess nutrient uptake niche?

Is this not often utilized, or at least discussed in great volume, because it isn't as easy a nutrient export out of the system as other methods (skimmer, ATS, etc) where you can actually remove media?

Anybody use a legit Xenia refug component? How we'll does it work? How big a system would you need to support it? I have seen one or two on RC but mostly this discussion has been off thread topic pontification-- let's have a conversation about it :beer:

 

[Lavoisier]

I hope to see some responses. I had an issue with aiptasia in my 90 gallon; obtained a Copperband who consumed the "pests":celeb2: and my phosphates went through the roof!!:worried: I, too, would like to know if anyone has been successful with Xenia filtration and if it conflicted with ATS.

 

[Batfish162]

+1 Thanks

 

[Timfish]

I use Xenia for nutrient removal but it's in a filterless system so I can't say how it works in conjunction with a refugium and macro algae. Sprung points out in his book "Algae: A Problem Solving Guide" fast growing corals will work for nutrient export. I suspect one possible reason Xenia or other corals are not considered is corals are not generally considered to be part of the filtration. Since corals are removing urea, ammonia, nitrates and phosphates just like macro algae any removal should be considered to be nutrient export to some extent and seems to me they should be considered part of the filtration and are a critical component to the nitrogen cycle in aquaria. Here's a video of the tank I use Xenia in for part of the nutrient removal along with water changes:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GFxUSRFRp24

 

[ca1ore]

Unless you are actually thinning the Xenia periodically, it isn't technically nutrient exporting - rather nutrient 'storage'. Just as good for our purposes, I suppose though. IMO, just takes too long to get an acceptable population of Xenia, whereas algae grows in pretty fast.

 

[Timfish]

Maybe it's because it's in Texas but locally most beginners are warned against Xenia as it typically grows prolifically. I've seen colonies double in as little as three weeks. In the tank I posted above I usually pull out multiple clumps like as pictured once or twice a month:

 

[_shorty_]

I've never run Xenia fuge, but have considered it. I have run systems solely on ATS. I'm a big believer in multiple forms of filtration though. Different forms typically attack the issue at 'different ends' of the cycle. I believe Xenia reduce by absorbing DOMs, right? Algae uses carbon, nitrogen, and phosphorus. So both may touch parts of the cycle that the other may not touch. I don't know that for sure, but it seems reasonable to set up both as each is very low cost and I don't THINK they directly compete. Even if they did 'compete', one would outcompete the other, and you'd know which to keep on line, in theory.

 

[williewilliams]

I run anthelia in my fuge in the first compartment. It's broken into 3. My water is crystal clear and no algae. Not sure how it works but it does and it keeps the anthelia from taking over the display.

 

[AquaTDV]

I've been using Xenia as my primary filtration, and 2 skimmers as secondary for 11 years, and over 9 years with the current system. It has worked really well for me, and it will for anyone who takes the time to figure out their needs and how to read them. Like ca1ore said they will need to be pruned regularly when the Xenia fuge is really rockin along with both skimmers off. This is when they can become quite profitable. My fuge can easily make $300 a month, which equates to 30 large stalks being removed a month. From what I've found the growth of Xenia will directly inhibit the growth of macro algae as well a skimmate production so I wouldn't try to run them in tandem. If you try this, be aware this could cause a potential crash in the Xenia colony, once you stop introducing/producing enough nutrients to supply enough food for both.
The system is 300+ gallons with a 240g mixed reef display. The main Xenia fuge is approx. 30 gallons and the secondary Xenia/macro fuge is 20 gallons. This area also serves as a Xenia grow out station before I sell them to the stores.

Here are some videos of the Xenia Fuge:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BKfhOu2GBaA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6hMoLeuo-cM

 

[ksed]

Nice!
What lighting are you running over it, and for how long?

 

[FlyPenFly]

Hmmm so can Xenia outcompete a skimmer and ATS in nutrient uptake?

Really curious about it and I also wonder what species are the best to keep?

 

[AquaTDV]

Nice!
What lighting are you running over it, and for how long?

Reverse photo 13hrs
1-150 watt 2 year old Plusrite 10k (ebay 25$)

Hmmm so can Xenia outcompete a skimmer and ATS in nutrient uptake?

Really curious about it and I also wonder what species are the best to keep?

Elongata - it seems to be hardier and fair better when I sell it to the LFS.
I've done PomPom as well, IMO its prettier but for me is seems to be a little more prone to crashes without much warning.

It depends on your skimmer... If your system is dialed in with the Xenia fuge whenever another nutrient export is introduced ie skimmer this can cause the Xenias' heath to wan. It really depends on the efficiency and control ability of the skimmer. For instance I have a 30"X6" needle wheel skimmer powered by a Sicce PSK2500, as well as a 30"x6" Beckett Style skimmer with a Panworld 100PXX pump to power it. The needle wheel is great for general skimming a great plug and play unit. Where as the beckett works off a gate valve to allow for all different grades of skimmate. This is very handy when I want to do a water change with slightly stained water, not just clear tank water. The beckett skimmer will out compete the Xenia when skimming very wet. In contrast to the needle wheel which pulls almost virtually no skimmate, maybe 1/4 cup after a week or two, and I think this is primarily because of the nutrients put back in the water when I frag them once a week.
Now to the macro fuge where I grow Chaeto, Halimeda, Prolifera, and any other cyclical algae I find in the system. The algae will grow as long as a nutrient void is present, or until the Xenia grows to meet the demand. Then the macro will cease to grow. This is very handy because it is a natural way to see if the Xenia has reached an equilibrium with the system. When the Macro stops growing your good to go.

Good questions

 

[AquaTDV]

Eric Borneman Aquarium Corals p.150, 151

"Xenia are noteworthy corals. They are among the first colonizers of a reef area. and are able to "walk" to new sites by the systematic attachment and detachment of their branches and stalks to adjacent locations. This ability allows them to move rapidly (relative to other corals) into new areas, and they may even encrust living corals and algae in the process. They are capable of competitively excluding other early colonizers, like Stylophora, Pocillipora, and Heteroxenia species by dense overgrowth. They may inhabit varied locations throughout the reef, forming large monospecific gardens-covering up to 70% of the substratein some locations. Perhaps the most notable is the prolific growth of Xenia and other family members near the effluent discharge of hotels and sewage pipes on near-shore reefs."

 

[AquaTDV]

This passage is what planted the seed many years ago. Just needed to figure out how to harness it.

 

[guserto4]

What about running a tandem system with one dormant and the other on? A Xenia refug. lights running the day shift and an ATS or a skimmer at night? It's incredible you can actually MAKE money in this hobby (or, well, break even-- If my tank paid me I'd still find ways to reinvest in it!)

 

[Timfish]

. . . I believe Xenia reduce by absorbing DOMs, right? Algae uses carbon, nitrogen, and phosphorus. . .

I think you meant DOC, dissolved organic carbon, right? All corals with photosynthetic symbionts will pull urea, ammonia, nitrates and phosphates from the water. Interestingly this research http://jeb.biologists.org/content/214/16/2749.full shows low phosphates as a limiting nutrient for the uptake of nitrates. (Do not misread this as an endorsement for leaving phosphates higher than typical recommended levels!) Additionally, some corals have been found to harbor symbiotic cyanobacteria that convert nitrogen dissolved in sea water into nitrates http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15310901

 

[ca1ore]

Here are some videos of the Xenia Fuge:

Wow, very cool, but also sort of creepy! How long did it take you to cultivate that level of growth? Looks like years?

 

[ivar85]

How do you keep it away from your display tank ?

 

[ksed]

I have 120 mainly SPS tank in which I have some xenia's there only because, everyone that see's the tank they always say those are nice. Instead of the SPS. The xenia's in there grow like weeds. Yet I have a 30 gallon breeder which I am trying to cultivate xenia's in and they don't grow at all. In the 30 gallon breeder I have 5 Green Chromis to provide some nutrients. I am also running a JNS HOB skimmer. Nitrates are 0 Phosphates are .02. The 30 gallon breeder has 2x T-5 HO bulbs. On the 120 I am running 400w Radiums. Any idea why they are not growing in the 30 gallon?

Reverse photo 13hrs
1-150 watt 2 year old Plusrite 10k (ebay 25$)


Elongata - it seems to be hardier and fair better when I sell it to the LFS.
I've done PomPom as well, IMO its prettier but for me is seems to be a little more prone to crashes without much warning.

It depends on your skimmer... If your system is dialed in with the Xenia fuge whenever another nutrient export is introduced ie skimmer this can cause the Xenias' heath to wan. It really depends on the efficiency and control ability of the skimmer. For instance I have a 30"X6" needle wheel skimmer powered by a Sicce PSK2500, as well as a 30"x6" Beckett Style skimmer with a Panworld 100PXX pump to power it. The needle wheel is great for general skimming a great plug and play unit. Where as the beckett works off a gate valve to allow for all different grades of skimmate. This is very handy when I want to do a water change with slightly stained water, not just clear tank water. The beckett skimmer will out compete the Xenia when skimming very wet. In contrast to the needle wheel which pulls almost virtually no skimmate, maybe 1/4 cup after a week or two, and I think this is primarily because of the nutrients put back in the water when I frag them once a week.
Now to the macro fuge where I grow Chaeto, Halimeda, Prolifera, and any other cyclical algae I find in the system. The algae will grow as long as a nutrient void is present, or until the Xenia grows to meet the demand. Then the macro will cease to grow. This is very handy because it is a natural way to see if the Xenia has reached an equilibrium with the system. When the Macro stops growing your good to go.

Good questions

 

[guserto4]

Is there a light quality difference between your DT and the 30g Xenia only tank? What about the staging of you system? Does DT water go directly to the 30g or does it get filtered/treated at all first?