Yet another ich thread...but to provoke discussion

[Perth_reefer]

Ok so I have had a few battles with ich lately......have taken advice from Reef Central which hasn't worked...not the fault of the advice given necessarily, most likely something that I did wrong along the way.
We all know that the treatment of ich once it is in your DT is not a quick process....TTM of all fish, followed by at least 4 weeks in QT, plus at least 10 weeks fallow. It's a lot of effort but necessary to completely rid your tank of ich.
Last night I attended the annual meet of my local reef keepers club at the biggest LFS in my city and was chatting to a few of the advanced reefers there about my issue, what they had to say on the subject was food for thought.
One of them was the club president with 12 years reef keeping experience...unbelievably he told me that he doesn't quarantine any fish, this guys tank is amazing, I'm trying to find a picture in the masses of posts he has made on our site and will upload it when I find one.
He told me he has an Achilles tang that is 4 years old, in the 4 years he has had it the fish contracted ich once and fought it off. His tank then was exposed to ich a few months later and the Achilles didn't contract it, all fish survived. 3 1/2 years later and no other fish introductions and he has not experienced ich at all.
His argument was that it is a disease that can be fought off and once fought off the fish develops a stronger immune system, not unlike us getting flu shots and being exposed to the flu, fighting it off and developing a stronger immune system as a result.
This seemed to be a common consensus at the meeting for the experienced reefers I spoke to. When I mentioned TTM, fallow periods and even QT there were rolling eyes and talk off analysing too much.
I'm not posting this to try and belittle the information given here, I am currently going through TTM and will continue the process for the full 12 days, I think 12 days of TTM is a small price to pay when buying a new fish.
I'm trying to just get educated discussion about the merits and pitfalls of catching all fish in an infected display tank and subjecting them to the stresses of treatment, instead of feeding up the tank and letting them fight it on their own.
The merits are obvious, correct treatment can cure ich and fallow periods should, if long enough, rid the DT of ich. I lost all but 3 of my fish in my first outbreak. When I mentioned this to the club president he answered 'that's strange....they died in the tank?' I answered 'No, they died in quarantine'...to which he answered ' So you put extra stress on already sick fish by ripping apart your reef and netting and transferring them?'......As I say, food for thought.

 

[Breadman03]

PaulB runs a no-QT system successfully. Well, it's pretty new at around 34 years old, but that's longer than most hobbyists.

While I QT my fish, I really and truthfully believe that nutrition plays a huge role in the health of our fish. Food is what we (and our fish) are made of. Paul swears by black worms and freshly hatched BBS. I'd argue, but I agree with him. High quality food is absolutely crucial to healthy anything. Heck, Paul is holding up pretty well and he survives off of oysters and clams.

(Read some of Paul's posts, and I'm pretty sure you will enjoy his sense of humor.)

 

[Perth_reefer]

I absolutely agree about nutrition. I was commenting on the unbelievable standard of the fish in one of my LFS the other week and the owner was saying they add this supplement to the food and haven't lost any fish since they started with it. These were some of the most colourful and healthiest looking fish I've seen for sale anywhere.
He gave me a small bottle for free to try out and my fish are definitely very active eaters, but as for long term results, time will tell I guess. I will never run without QT, not from a disease point of view but from a feeding perspective, I believe it is easier to overfeed and fatten up fish in a QT environment without raising phosphates and nitrates in your DT. Especially important when trying to get species such as Anthias onto pellets or flake food.

Do you have a link to Pauls posts anywhere?

 

[Dkuhlmann]

Indeed, food for thought!

 

[snorvich]

My one and only response to this thread. You folks are worried about ich (cryptocaryon irritans) which is the least problematic of all parasites. Are you really willing to risk wiping out your tank by not quarantining?

 

[bat21]

No one is actually suggesting not using QT. Someone just mentioned Paul B, who doesn't quarantine. And someone else said that moving a sick fish is not ideal due to the stress it causes them. Implying that if the fish are sick in your DT, figure out how to treat in that tank rather than risking the stress of moving them to a QT to treat. Life he said, just throwing out things to start a discussion.

 

[Dkuhlmann]

My one and only response to this thread. You folks are worried about ich (cryptocaryon irritans) which is the least problematic of all parasites. Are you really willing to risk wiping out your tank by not quarantining?

NO, you are taking not doing a treatment or TTM as not quarantining. This isn't it at all. Quarantine in a tank and OBSERVE! Then if issue after 6 weeks take care of it, if not in the DT it goes. :dance:

 

[Dkuhlmann]

No one is actually suggesting not using QT. Someone just mentioned Paul B, who doesn't quarantine. And someone else said that moving a sick fish is not ideal due to the stress it causes them. Implying that if the fish are sick in your DT, figure out how to treat in that tank rather than risking the stress of moving them to a QT to treat. Life he said, just throwing out things to start a discussion.

x2

 

[codyreed29]

Mike paletta has talked Bout simular things. He says in one video that he stopped or forgot to feed the fish gartic and his fish got ich. He was also using a qt system attached to his display but running a uv sterilzer.

I guess you got a point that they can fight off ich.

But forget to qt some thing like velvet or brook and watch all your collection die off.

I think keeping the tank clear of all parasites would be the reason. But yeah just ich can probably be fine ND fish can survive it.

I just don't think it's fair to the fish. If your dog got some parasites and he was scratching and looked bad would you just get him some better food and let him live with it. NO you wouldn't would you.

Fish are my only pets and I want to take care of them just like someone would a bird dog or cat.

 

[CHSUB]

One of them was the club president with 12 years reef keeping experience...unbelievably he told me that he doesn't quarantine any fish, this guys tank is amazing

I went nearly 20 years keeping saltwater fish before i started QTing; maybe the club president is just lucky so far?

 

[Perth_reefer]

I just don't think it's fair to the fish. If your dog got some parasites and he was scratching and looked bad would you just get him some better food and let him live with it. NO you wouldn't would you.

Fish are my only pets and I want to take care of them just like someone would a bird dog or cat.

I totally get what you're saying here, we all want to do what is best for our fish. I'm just saying that sometimes what we think is the best thing to do might actually not be helping at all. I'll give you a stupid analogy.....if your dog got sick at home with a disease that he could fight off himself as long as you kept feeding him and monitoring, would you do that or put him in a crate, drive him to an airport and fly him to the other side of the world for treatment? Stupid analogy but you see what I'm saying.......stress is a MASSIVE problem for our fish, it is the thing that most likely triggered ich in the first place, is it always the best thing to do to add more stress into the equation?

I went nearly 20 years keeping saltwater fish before i started QTing; maybe the club president is just lucky so far?

Well yes.....I think maybe he has. I am definitely not an advocate of not using quarantine. However if you bought all your fish from a very reliable source that you'd used for years, put a deposit down and monitored in store, you could be alright. But ordinarily I'd definitely recommend quarantine, as I said in another post, for feeding purposes as much as anything else

 

[Paul B]

Someone just mentioned Paul B, who doesn't quarantine.

That is true, but it is not as simple as just to quit quarantining. There is much more to it than that. I get in trouble for my theories on this forum so I won't go into it, (That's why I wrote a book) but if you have a new tank (A new tank is probably less than 3 or 4 years old) or if you feed mostly flakes and pellets, or if your fish are not in breeding condition through live foods, or if your fish normally get sick often. Then you should quarantine everything.
But even if you quarantine forever, try to get your fish into breeding condition as that is the condition they are in in the sea. The normal condition for a wild fish is pregnant. :smokin:

 

[Dkuhlmann]

Mike paletta has talked Bout simular things. He says in one video that he stopped or forgot to feed the fish gartic and his fish got ich. He was also using a qt system attached to his display but running a uv sterilzer.

I guess you got a point that they can fight off ich.

But forget to qt some thing like velvet or brook and watch all your collection die off.

I think keeping the tank clear of all parasites would be the reason. But yeah just ich can probably be fine ND fish can survive it.

I just don't think it's fair to the fish. If your dog got some parasites and he was scratching and looked bad would you just get him some better food and let him live with it. NO you wouldn't would you.

Fish are my only pets and I want to take care of them just like someone would a bird dog or cat.

Bad analogy. The dog/fish would be under observation/quarantine then treated accordingly. Quarantine is strictly for observation and need for treatment.

 

[bat21]

That is true, but it is not as simple as just to quit quarantining. There is much more to it than that. I get in trouble for my theories on this forum so I won't go into it, (That's why I wrote a book) but if you have a new tank (A new tank is probably less than 3 or 4 years old) or if you feed mostly flakes and pellets, or if your fish are not in breeding condition through live foods, or if your fish normally get sick often. Then you should quarantine everything.
But even if you quarantine forever, try to get your fish into breeding condition as that is the condition they are in in the sea. The normal condition for a wild fish is pregnant. :smokin:

Well I'm not following your no QT example, but I have adopted your live black worm heavy diet. I read your theory on it and then remembered the pair of fresh water angel fish I had as a kid. We had no idea about cycling a tank, used only treated tap water, but fed mostly live blackworms. These two fish lived about 12 years and spawned hundreds or thousands of times. So, I have witnessed first hand the power of blackworms and my marine fish are fat and happy gorging themselves on those delicious worms. It also helps that I have a blackworm source 100 feet from my apartment.

 

[ThRoewer]

That is true, but it is not as simple as just to quit quarantining. There is much more to it than that. I get in trouble for my theories on this forum so I won't go into it, (That's why I wrote a book) but if you have a new tank (A new tank is probably less than 3 or 4 years old) or if you feed mostly flakes and pellets, or if your fish are not in breeding condition through live foods, or if your fish normally get sick often. Then you should quarantine everything.
But even if you quarantine forever, try to get your fish into breeding condition as that is the condition they are in in the sea. The normal condition for a wild fish is pregnant. :smokin:

While I agree with many of your points I still do a minimum 2 month observation period before new fish go into an established tank.

 

[Paul B]

I am not here to tell anyone to quit quarantining, run a reverse undergravel filter, run down to the beach to collect NSW, put cans and bottles in your tank, feed blackworms, use dolomite for a substrate, or anything else. It is none of my business. I just write what I do and how I do it, and you can do what ever you like with that information. Just like everyone else on here. It is your tank and you would know best how to maintain it.