Yikes!! Too Many Dwarf Angels!!

[Angel*Fish]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8186722#post8186722 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by jmaneyapanda
Jeez- I should've known better Angelfish!!! I would think that an "established" centropyge- especially a recently "established" centropyge would not tolerate another conspecific in a 4 foot by 2 foot by 2 foot square. Regardless of rock layout or tankmates. I am only speculating, though.

That's why i asked how long it was between the shipments. But there are other factors like other angels in the tank. When my male flame died, his replacement was chased out by a tiny cherub So I gave up. But several weeks ago I saw a huge male flame and tried him - he had to work things out with the Singapore and the Herald's angel, but it only took a day. The little female was very receptive even after months had passed.

Your point about the tank being only 4 foot is one I had missed before - a longer tank would be better

Wayne, I, too thought ethompson was talking about a greater size difference - I guess you'd have to do it as LargeAngels already mentioned - but with an obvious juvenile it's so easy (you can just toss it into the main tank) & being a lazy reefer that method is very appealing

A pair of dwarves is better than two singles for sure Sounds like poker I guess a pair of venustus beats a pair of flames lol

 

[Angel*Fish]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8189029#post8189029 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by ethompson
Oh great Angel*Fish, please give me insight into your great wisdom in all things aquatic. What are the chances of acclimating this 2.25" flame angel with the 3.25" flame and coral beauty. Oh great one, please enlighten me

I guess I'm a truely insensitive dolt - I have no idea what I said to offend you - please elaborate.

 

[ethompson]

Angel*Fish...I was serious. You have more experience than me. I was just looking for your honest opinion. That was my attempt at humor and nothing else. I guess I'll be more careful next time.

I have put the new smaller flame angel in a clear plastic 1/2 gallon juice container. I poked a buch of holes in it to get good flow to him. I set him in the middle of the tank between the reef on the left and the island on the right. So far the other angels could care less about the little guy. This could be a good sign or it could be that the fish are afraid of the big clear container in their living room. It may give them flashbacks or something.

I'll let it go a couple few days and see if the warm fuzzy's wear off after they get use to the container.

So...what I meant to say was so far so good.

Eric

 

[Angel*Fish]

Oh - sorry, no one is ever that nice to me - lol

It may give them flashbacks or something Funny :lol:
That's a good way to try and see how they react to each other -

A word if you decide to release the fish:
In my experience releasing an unwanted angel into the main tank will not result in physical attacks (actual biting) initially. What tends to happen is the unwanted angel will stay cornered near the top of the tank. If the fish is going to try & work things out, it will test the waters when the other offending fish are not near. If it's not going try to work it out with its tankmates it will stay there desperately wanting to escape. This can make it easy to catch with a net. However this may not work and you could be forced to remove the rocks to catch it.

If these were my fish, I would not attempt release unless I was pretty certain they were opposite sexes -- there are stories of male angels changing back to female - but most of the ones I've heard were Geniacanthus angels rather than Centropyge. On the other hand, if you feel like experimenting and have the means to make sure nobody gets hurt, I'd be most interested in hearing how things turn out.

 

[ethompson]

I'll keep you posted.

I have this tank in my high school biology classroom. Students have been fascinated with it to say the least. If I do attempt this it will probably be next Monday with curious eyes watching.

I'll be there for 10 hours after the initial introduction to see how things go and I would turn all lights out when leaving to cut down on squabbling.

Should I put the fish in just before or just after rearranging the rock?

I will set up the rocks with an island in the middle and small reef type structures in each of the back corners against the Megaflow. This way I would at least have 3 separated structures. Initially I might try to section off one of the corners with eggcrate for a while.

If it doesn't work, I guess I'll be able to fine tune this new aquascaping setup as I will have to tear it apart to get him out.

ethompson

 

[Angel*Fish]

If you're not concerned about moving the rocks around then I guess there's no problem - obviously you don't want to stress the fish out if possible.

If it were me, I'd put the new fish in right after rearranging the rocks. Less stress for him. If he hasn't started working things out with the other fish by 10 hours, he may not be able to do so ever.

One option is to rearrange the rocks such that you can divide the tank into 2 parts until you have time to catch one of them. That way you could just slide that in and go home. It could also function longer-term as a way to acclimate them to each other.

 

[Angela Short]

Angel*fish,
That would be so cool to have a pair of flames! Never thought it could be done. So what do you look for to pair them? One conciderably smaller than the other or are there physical differances in them to look for? The one I have is what I would concider large. Also My current flame is in a 30 gallon QT and not been introduced to the 270 yet. Should I try to do this in the 30 or wait and try in the 270 with a clear container as you mentioned? Thanks and sorry for the hijack

 

[ethompson]

Second flame angel is in. Initially their was some pecking and chasing but it was pretty tame. They are now starting to settle in and seem to be getting along. They know where eachother are and there is a little chasing on occasion, but it hasn't been bad at all. I think it may work or at least it seems to be working so far.

ethompson

 

[Angela Short]

Keep us updated on how it goes. I would love to have a pair of flames.

 

[Angel*Fish]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8198475#post8198475 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Angela Short
Angel*fish,
That would be so cool to have a pair of flames! Never thought it could be done. So what do you look for to pair them? One considerably smaller than the other or are there physical differances in them to look for? The one I have is what I would consider large. Also My current flame is in a 30 gallon QT and not been introduced to the 270 yet. Should I try to do this in the 30 or wait and try in the 270 with a clear container as you mentioned? Thanks and sorry for the hijack

Sorry for the late reply - I spent the last 3 days at MACNA

When looking for a female, you need it to be very very much smaller than the male, and for it to have much thinner black stripes and for the blue on the tail and anal fins to be much shorter --all relative to the fish size. The female's blue might only be 1/8 of an inch and we're talking horizontally.

If you find a fish that is only an inch long, it's probably going to be just fine
As for which tank - probably the 30g if it has rocks.

ethompson - That's great! The male should do some occasional chasing of the female just to reassure everyone'who's boss. But she should have full "swim of the tank".

Keep us posted!

 

[Angela Short]

OK Thanks for the info. The one I have is definetly big with large black stripes and a good bit of blue so its definetly male then. Should I introduce them in the 270 or in a 30 gallon long? He is just about to finnish up in QT.

 

[Angel*Fish]

If you're not sure the potential mate is female, I'd use the 30g
If it's definitely a small female/juvenile you can add it anytime to your main tank containing the male - though I'd say it would be much better for it to be not longer than 3-4 days after adding the male

 

[rmougey]

Interesting observations here. I've never tried to pair flames, but have had success pairing other dwarf angels. Way back in the mid 80's I was lucky enough to have a pair of C. resplendens in a 75 gallon soft coral tank. They remain my favorite dwarf angel today. If only I could still purchase them for $65 each, retail.

I've also had good success pairing African Flame Backs (C. acanthops). They were very tolerant of each other and I used the size rule, one big and one smaller. They played in a 135 for many years.

A friend paired C. multicolor in a 125 clown and anemone tank. A bit combative at first, but both settled down nicely.

As far as sexual changes, I have not seen this occur in the Centropyge angels, but have first hand knowledge with Genicanthus. My male G. wantanabe entered quarantine and emerged as a girl. Sadly the transformation is complete and he... er she.... has lost all vestiges of male coloration. That said, she's a pretty fish. But.... he/she came from the LFS at a premium for the male.

Looking forward to hearing more about how the Flames do!

-Rob

 

[Angel*Fish]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8222243#post8222243 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by rmougey
Interesting observations here. I've never tried to pair flames, but have had success pairing other dwarf angels. Way back in the mid 80's I was lucky enough to have a pair of C. resplendens in a 75 gallon soft coral tank. They remain my favorite dwarf angel today. If only I could still purchase them for $65 each, retail.

I've also had good success pairing African Flame Backs (C. acanthops). They were very tolerant of each other and I used the size rule, one big and one smaller. They played in a 135 for many years.

A friend paired C. multicolor in a 125 clown and anemone tank. A bit combative at first, but both settled down nicely.

As far as sexual changes, I have not seen this occur in the Centropyge angels, but have first hand knowledge with Genicanthus. My male G. wantanabe entered quarantine and emerged as a girl. Sadly the transformation is complete and he... er she.... has lost all vestiges of male coloration. That said, she's a pretty fish. But.... he/she came from the LFS at a premium for the male.

Looking forward to hearing more about how the Flames do!

-Rob

I'm hearing that more and more about the watanabes - I actually think the females are prettier anyway, but I'm in the minority

 

[Angela Short]

I will just hold out the flame from the 270 and start looking for a nice tiny girl for him to play with and introduce them in the 30. Thanks for the info!

 

[RichConley]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8183448#post8183448 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by jmaneyapanda
please do not try putting the new angels in with the others. As you said, I probably wouldn't have even put the two dwarves in the 120, but same species will end up with deaths for sure. Find them a new home.

I've seen healthy breeding angel pairs in 20Hs. People are entirely too trapped by dogma with these fish.


Add the little ones to the tank if you can establish sexes, or if theyre juveniles. Move some rock around so that its not such a territorial situation. THeres a good chance you'll end up with 2 pairs.



edit: just noticed sizes.

I'd introduce the fish in a plastic box like someone else showed. Much more likely to have thigns go well.

 

[Angel*Fish]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8224857#post8224857 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by RichConley
I've seen healthy breeding angel pairs in 20Hs. People are entirely too trapped by dogma with these fish.


Add the little ones to the tank. Move some rock around so that its not such a territorial situation. THeres a good chance you'll end up with 2 pairs.

Are you saying that you definitely know that male Centopyges do indeed change back to female if need be?

I don't know if you've ever had/seen mating angelfish, but it is a bit frantic. Two mating pairs in the same tank while possible obviously, just may not be the atmosphere everyone wants for their aquarium. It is probably more stressful for the fish involved. And this tank is only 4 feet long.

And 2 fish mating in a certain size tank is not evidence that the given tank size is ideal or even adequate for the humane care of the animals in question.

I suppose you could keep the tank temperature low & it would reduce courting and calm things down.

 

[ethompson]

This is an article I found at: http://www.wetwebmedia.com/centropyge2.htm

I think it is helpful


Reproduction, Sexual Differentiation:

In terms of sexing members of the genus, some are known to display temporary or permanent color differences between the sexes (dichromatism), and in all there are size differences (dimorphism) by sex. For example in Potter's and flame angelfishes males are larger and colorful on their unpaired fins than females.

All dwarf angels investigated start off sexually undifferentiated, become females that turn into males with age/growth, a condition called protogynous (first female) hermaphroditism (possessing both sexes). Further Centropyge live in groups of one male with several females, in a harem or haremic condition. When the male is removed from this harem, or in a situation of surplus females, one of them will convert to a male.

Spawning has been observed in the wild and in captivity for a number of pygmy angel species. On the reef some are seasonal spawners, tied with the seasons, moons or tides, others behave less discriminately as in captivity. Actual gamete release follows a set pattern, with a pair doing a swimming dance, soaring about a prominent spot, spawning and an after-chase.

A dozen or so species have spawned in captivity, though raising the planktonic young to size has proven elusive.

 

[RichConley]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8224938#post8224938 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Angel*Fish
Are you saying that you definitely know that male Centopyges do indeed change back to female if need be?

I don't know if you've ever had/seen mating angelfish, but it is a bit frantic. Two mating pairs in the same tank while possible obviously, just may not be the atmosphere everyone wants for their aquarium. It is probably more stressful for the fish involved. And this tank is only 4 feet long.

And 2 fish mating in a certain size tank is not evidence that the given tank size is ideal or even adequate for the humane care of the animals in question.

I suppose you could keep the tank temperature low & it would reduce courting and calm things down.

Judging what is humane, and what is not, is tough.

No, I've never seen male angels change to female, and I doubt it is possible. As to the Genicanthus, I'd argue that its most likely just a male in female colors, and not a full out female.

I have seen mating Centropyge, and yes, its frantic. I just think a 120 is a pretty big tank, and I think people are so stuck in the idea of huge reef tanks that they think everything needs an 8' tank. I've got a small pair of occelaris clowns in a 7 gallon minibow. People think thats wrong. I dont. The other pair, in my main tank, dont use any more space than the ones in the 7 do, and yet, somehow, the ones in the 7 are a travesty. Fish dont seem to mind though.


If the OP is willing to keep an eye on the tank, I think he should try it. If not, sell off a couple of fish.


The literature has to be taken with a grain of salt. Most of it is quite old, and a lot of it was come by people who would throw two centropyge in, watch them fight, and say they can't be kept together. At some point, we realized they were sexible, and throwing two males together wasnt a good idea. A male and a female is generally fine though, itst just that the old Literature sticks around (because very few actually do real research, they just copy what the last author said.)

 

[ethompson]

Update,

30 hours have passed since I introduced the 2nd flame angel. At this point all 3 of the angels have full range of the tank. During feeding they swim and feed side by side and could care less about the presence of the others. There is very little chasing and virtually no pecking or standoffs. So far...I have a peaceful 120 reef tank with a coral beauty and 2 flame angels!!

Got rid of the second coral beauty. He found a new 90 gallon home of his own.