Zebra vs' Watanabei - looking for input & experiences

[blstravler]

Cutiewitbooty

I understand what you are saying with the QT about brining in disease. However I do run a very clean tank ORP @ 400 I also run UV 24/7. Combined with water changes and a handfull of cleaner shrimp, I have yet to see any problems with fish parasties or diseases in over 3 years.

marrone

"It doesn't take much to get a Rubbermaid container and setup a QT tank."

So you are saying I should by a rubber maid tub, that's big enough to house both of these fish for a given period of time (it would have to be at least 6 foot in length, they were jumping like crazy when I was dripping them into my tank) throw a skimmer in, some live rock, a heater and a pump for circulation. So I guess it does take something to set up a QT tank?

What I don't understand is that I had the LFS QT them for me, they gave them a bath (I forget the name of the stuff but it turns the water blue green, formalin?) then dripped them in slowly into a separate tank from there other tank system. During there drip in process they change out 20 gallons.

So it's not ok for me to pay my LFS to QT them (throw in the fact they have staff in the store for a longer period of time then I am in my house to even watch a QT tank) but it's okay, in your eyes, to dump an almost 300 dollar pair of fish that are almost 6 inches long into a rubbermaid tub?

I guess in the end I tend to think positive over negative.

 

[Terryz_]

I personally feel that it is okaie if the LFS have already QT them, they should be free of any diseases...
I normally buy QT fishes, and have no problem with them...
I will only QT the fish if it have not gone through QT at the LFS...

 

[marrone]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7038981#post7038981 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by blstravler

marrone

"It doesn't take much to get a Rubbermaid container and setup a QT tank."

So you are saying I should by a rubber maid tub, that's big enough to house both of these fish for a given period of time (it would have to be at least 6 foot in length, they were jumping like crazy when I was dripping them into my tank) throw a skimmer in, some live rock, a heater and a pump for circulation. So I guess it does take something to set up a QT tank?

What I don't understand is that I had the LFS QT them for me, they gave them a bath (I forget the name of the stuff but it turns the water blue green, formalin?) then dripped them in slowly into a separate tank from there other tank system. During there drip in process they change out 20 gallons.

So it's not ok for me to pay my LFS to QT them (throw in the fact they have staff in the store for a longer period of time then I am in my house to even watch a QT tank) but it's okay, in your eyes, to dump an almost 300 dollar pair of fish that are almost 6 inches long into a rubbermaid tub?

I guess in the end I tend to think positive over negative.

First to setup a QT tank all you need is a rubbermaid container, make up new clean water or use some from you tank and some thing to move the water around and have water breakage plus a heater and some thing for the fish to hide in like a rock or pvc. You don't need live rock or a skimmer. That's all it take no more no less and you can do it pretty quickly, specially if you know your going to get the fish soon. You also don't need a container that 6', a 22gal or even a 50gal, if you want to go that large, would be find. I QT my Napolean Wrasse in a 22gal Rubbermaid container, and he is a lot larger than both of your angels, plus much more nervous. The fish would have also settled into the container and you wouldn't of had any problems. Also this would have given them some time to settle down from all the moving around and have some down time.

Do you know how long they QT them for? Was it atleast 2-4 weeks? Did they give them a bath with Formalin 37% or was it some thing else and how many bathes did they give them. Do you think that just after a couple of days or a week you can say that the fish is ok and can then be placed in your system.

As for thinking positive over negative, that being very foolish and your taking a change your not only going to lose the fish that you just bought but a chance that you could lose your other fish.

It better to error on the side of cautions and actually lose the new fish, even at a price of $300 for the pair, then place them into your tank and take a chance of killing all your fish. You see it all the time here people just think that a fish is ok and it bein QT enough or they haven't had any problems over the past and then all of a sudden they have a breakout and they lose fish all because they didn't QT there fish.

 

[blstravler]

So you are saying it would be okay to keep a pair of large size fish in a 22gal rubbermaid contianer for 2-4 weeks. With some PVC pipe and no LR for biological filtration, given the amount of food genus Genicanthus eat, I'm not sure I would agree with that?

IWhen it comes down to the end of all of this how long should you QT a fish for 2 weeks, 2 months? You could QT a fish all you want and he may look just as happy after the first 10 days as it would after 2 months. But you can still put him in the tank and it could die.

I guess in the end my method is proven just as your is, you QT at home; I have the LFS do it for me. I've had them keep fish for me for up to a month and I am sure you have QT'd fish for up to a month. Regardless the Wantanabei's are doing very good as I am sure your fish are.

Let's just leave it at what works for you is great for you and what works for me is great for me. They seem to both be working very well.

 

[blstravler]

One last question, how long have you had the Japanese Dragon for? Bad A$$ looking fish.

 

[marrone]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7039628#post7039628 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by blstravler
One last question, how long have you had the Japanese Dragon for? Bad A$$ looking fish.

That one for over 9 years.

 

[marrone]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7039614#post7039614 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by blstravler
So you are saying it would be okay to keep a pair of large size fish in a 22gal rubbermaid contianer for 2-4 weeks. With some PVC pipe and no LR for biological filtration, given the amount of food genus Genicanthus eat, I'm not sure I would agree with that?

Yes the fish will be fine. Your not going to feed them anywhere like you would in a regular tank. Your just going to feed them every so often. After a week or so you can do a water change. You don't need any biological filteration just water movement and water breakage in the QT container. That's all there is to a QT tank. Do a search here on RC and other places and you'll see that.

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7039614#post7039614 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by blstravler
IWhen it comes down to the end of all of this how long should you QT a fish for 2 weeks, 2 months? You could QT a fish all you want and he may look just as happy after the first 10 days as it would after 2 months. But you can still put him in the tank and it could die.

The whole purpose of QT a fish is to place it in a tank and observe it and see if it has some thing, also it's good to give a fish some down time as it's has just been moved a # of time in a short period and is very stressed out. The stress alone from all the moving could cause it to come down with some thing once you place it in your main tank. Some people like to QT for 2 weeks other for 4 weeks some even longer. Any fish can die but that's not the point of a QT tank it's to protect the current fish that you have in your tank and not only the new fish.

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7039614#post7039614 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by blstravler
I guess in the end my method is proven just as your is, you QT at home; I have the LFS do it for me. I've had them keep fish for me for up to a month and I am sure you have QT'd fish for up to a month. Regardless the Wantanabei's are doing very good as I am sure your fish are.

As far your other posts here I don't see how you could have this fish for a month or anywhere near that time. You only starting asking about the Angels on 3/17.

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7039614#post7039614 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by blstravler
Let's just leave it at what works for you is great for you and what works for me is great for me. They seem to both be working very well.

No I wouldn't leave it at that as people come to this board for information and when they see some not QT their fish it leads them to believe that's what they should do and it's wrong. And the amount of time your LFS QT is not enough or even close. As for your way working I sugguest you just look at all the post of people not QT their fish and all the problems, and death, from it.

 

[blstravler]

"No I wouldn't leave it at that as people come to this board for information and when they see some not QT their fish it leads them to believe that's what they should do and it's wrong. And the amount of time your LFS QT is not enough or even close. As for your way working I sugguest you just look at all the post of people not QT their fish and all the problems, and death, from it."


I tried to end this on a positive note. I guess you think you are correct and everyone else's way of doing things is not and there couldn't possibly be a different way of doing things other then yours. You act like I didn't QT them at all my LFS QT's all of there fish and they got my pair in on 3/15 2 days before my 1st post, this is when the thought to pick them up struck me, they didn't event tell me they had them b/c they will not sell them before a certain amount of QT time I found this out after the fact, I brought them home yesterday. I never posted that you should not QT, I just have my LFS do it for me. It's okay for people to do things differently then you, same thing as DSB v BB.

Regardless I am going to go enjoy my fish now and get ready to go out with my wife.

Have a good evening and I hope you get lots' of enjoyment out of your tanks in the future, again nice Dragon.

 

[marrone]

Comparing DSB vs BB is not the same as compare how long to QT a fish. It's like comparing apples and oranges.

To QT fish for such a short time is not the correct way of doing it, reguardless if you or your LFS does it. It give people a bad impression on what to do when they get fish and leads to all those posts after of people who now have a tank full of disease and dieing fish.

 

[blstravler]

"To QT fish for such a short time is not the correct way of doing it"

Please point me to the exact article or scientific study where it is outlined the EXACT proper way of QT'ing a fish, including time, treatments, feeding, QT tank size in comparison to fish size and water change frequancey for QT tank.

You say my methods are in-correct, now prove it.

And don't reply back with, just do a search on RC and you will find it every where. I want your solid evidence that your way is the best way.

Give me a book wtha page reference, exact comparison study done with numbers of survivability for QT vs' non QT fish. I want a reputable author, not "Billy Bob" from RC who has been posting for 10 years; typing a post doesn't make you an expert.

I'm waiting.....

 

[marrone]

Do you really understand what a Quaratine tank actually is? As I really don't think you do. A quaratine tank is a tank to observe a fish and see if it has some thing not a hospital tank where you treat a fish for some thing. Just look at some of the disease page and see how long it takes for some thing to work through a fish body or start to show signs that a fish is infected with some thing. It's a lot long than the period of QT that your LFS put the fish through. As for feeding in a quaratine tank you try not to feed that much as this will produce waste and increase ammonia in the tank. As for water changes you should be checking on the fish and water quaility and do them when needed,( the last two things are pretty common sense). Depending on the size of the fish and amount that your feeding them it could be more water changes could be frequent or less. The tank size will go on the fish size, but just because a fish needs a large tank normal doesn't mean you need a large tank to quaratine them. I sugguest you look at some books and post on how long people should quaratine fish and not the short time that your LFS did. See all the post where people quaratine their fish as long as you did and found out it wasn't long enough only after they place the fish in their tank.

Finally a Quaratine tank is a tank to give the fish some down time as it's bein moving around a lot and quite stressed out, which does lead to diseases and could cause it to break out with some thing one placed into your tank.


And just because some one writes a book doesn't make what he wrote law and the final word, even though I guess your one of those people that need to see some thing written to believe it.

There are plenty of "Billy Bob" that have been keeping fish for many many years and never wrote a book or article and that doesn't mean they don't know what they're talking about or even more than the person who wrote the book. But I bet your the type of person who believes everything the people at your LFS tell you also.

 

[marrone]

Here's one on setting up and running a QT tank.

QT Setup by Bob Fenner

 

[marrone]

QT Anothy Calfo

 

[blstravler]

Now. now read again more carefully. I asked for a scientific study not an article posted on the web, even if Calfo wrote it.

Scientific studies usualy have a cotontrol group, a study, etc. I'm sure you know all of these things. Let me know when you find a Quantitative study on QT tanks.

"Do you really understand what a Quaratine tank actually is?"
Yes I do, this is why I have my LFS do it for me, WHY? - Per your next comment-

"A quaratine tank is a tank to observe a fish and see if it has some thing not a hospital tank where you treat a fish for some thing."

BECSAUSE myself and my wife are not home enough during the day to take car of a fish in a rubbermaid "tank" and observe it as much as nessecary, again as stated previously my LFS staff has much more time to do this then I do during the QT period.

"But I bet your the type of person who believes everything the people at your LFS tell you also."

Oh that's a good one, showing your age now. I've been in this hobby going on 15 year's now. I haven't fallen prey to that stupidity in about 10 years-

However, apparently one thing I have learned that you have yet to in all of the time you spend on these threads, as mentioned previously by myself and I am sure more then one Mod on this board, is that it is OK for people to do things differently then you. Until you understand that you will never understand my point in asking for a Quantitative study.

Do you know why that is? Forget the above questoin on a QT tank; just answer that question. What is my point in asking for a Quantitative study on QT'ing fish.

Never mind I'll answer it for you-

I asked for this because in this hobby it is rare that there is such a study to back up a theory or practice in the hobby, such as a QT tank, it is more often or not based on people experiences, whcih may differ from person to person. AS IN THIS CASE you use a QT tank and QT for a certain time period and I pay my LFS to QT my fish for a certain period of time. Are we all clear now? It's okay to do things differently, relax enjoy your tank, as I am about to go do with mine.

 

[marrone]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7044451#post7044451 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by blstravler
Now. now read again more carefully. I asked for a scientific study not an article posted on the web, even if Calfo wrote it.

Now please read again what you wrote:

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7044451#post7044451 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by blstravler
Please point me to the exact article or scientific study where it is outlined the EXACT proper way of QT'ing a fish, including time, treatments, feeding, QT tank size in comparison to fish size and water change frequancey for QT tank.

Now please once again read what you wrote, I gave you just 2 article from two people in the industry about what they had to say about QT fish. I guess that wasn't good enough for you. Most people aren't doing scientific study and writing article on this, but maybe there is some thing out there.

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7044451#post7044451 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by blstravler
Scientific studies usualy have a cotontrol group, a study, etc. I'm sure you know all of these things. Let me know when you find a Quantitative study on QT tanks.

I know what a sceintific study is and I'll look around for one for you, considering you would rather listen to you LFS than all the "Billy Bob" here on RC even will all their exprecince but I guess you rather listen to your LFS.

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7044451#post7044451 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by blstravler


BECSAUSE myself and my wife are not home enough during the day to take car of a fish in a rubbermaid "tank" and observe it as much as nessecary, again as stated previously my LFS staff has much more time to do this then I do during the QT period.

What is there to take care of? The fish is in a container it doesn't need to be observe 24hours a day. This also has nothing to do with you or your LFS doing the quaratine or observing of the fish but the amount of time the fish needs to be quaratined. As for your LFS dipping/bathing the fish in a " blue green, formalin" solution, well what was that for? Are you treating a fish that just comes in for some thing that you don't even know what it may or mayn't have? You don't normally start treating a fish usually you know what it has.

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7044451#post7044451 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by blstravler


"But I bet your the type of person who believes everything the people at your LFS tell you also."


Oh that's a good one, showing your age now. I've been in this hobby going on 15 year's now. I haven't fallen prey to that stupidity in about 10 years-

Could have fooled me from what you posted.

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7044451#post7044451 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by blstravler

However, apparently one thing I have learned that you have yet to in all of the time you spend on these threads, as mentioned previously by myself and I am sure more then one Mod on this board, is that it is OK for people to do things differently then you. Until you understand that you will never understand my point in asking for a Quantitative study.

I guess you haven't read my posts on RC, not only in this thread but other threads, and I guess you didn't read the other also saying they wished that you quaratine the fish, but I guess you don't want to read that.

Also I have never had a Mod every mention to me about anything I've ever posted, and that I should back off because there is more than one way of doing something. I don't think my way of doing things is the only way, but since you haven't read any of my post or PM that I've sent to people or advise that I've given to people you wouldn't even know that. You also can't turn you head to all the history of people doing some thing and the results that they produced and not make a determination on some thing. Unlike you I don't want to put out info so people can see it and think that hey this guy only quaratine his fish for a week and since he said it that must be fine, specially when it not fine and you see people doing this and then having out breaks in their tanks and fish dying. Just case in point, there is one guy that just posted he doesn't QT any of his fish, just places them right into his tank. He feel if his current fish die from some thing the new fish had well then his fish weren't healthy and he not doing some thing right to begin with and his has larger problems. Do you think it's right not to say some thing to him?

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7044451#post7044451 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by blstravler
I asked for this because in this hobby it is rare that there is such a study to back up a theory or practice in the hobby, such as a QT tank, it is more often or not based on people experiences, whcih may differ from person to person. AS IN THIS CASE you use a QT tank and QT for a certain time period and I pay my LFS to QT my fish for a certain period of time. Are we all clear now? It's okay to do things differently, relax enjoy your tank, as I am about to go do with mine.

Is there a study out? maybe maybe not but since this is a hobby your probably not going to find some one doing some thing like that , unless you look at public aquariums and see what they're doing and I'm sure it very from place to place but there is a certain amount of time envolved..
Your basically are going by all the exprecince that people have had and start to piece them together. From this exprecince most people can see trends of what works and doesn't and what should be done. It's also good to look at people who have been in the hobby for a long time as they have seen many different method over the years, I post a couple of those people, just like you wanted, but I guess that wasn't good enough for you. You can also look at disease outbreaks and how long it take some thing to show on a fish. To not use this info and turn your back on some thing is not right. To look at all the past post and exprecience an not take that into account is not right also, but then again you have no reguard for any of the "Billy Bobs" here on RC. I'm sure there are a lot of things in the hobby that are steady fast that there isn't a "Scientific studies" done but are followed.

 

[blstravler]

This is getting very funny.

Look you just don't get it.

Look at the base of what you say, QT a certain way.

Look at the base of what I am saying I QT but in a different way, (I basicly out source this)

I AM NOT SAYING NOT TO QT, GET IT?

What I am saying is that it is ok for other people to QT in a different way then you do. I am not saying your method is wrong I think it is great. But to say you have to do it a certain way is narrow minded. My way seems to be working just fine. However, because it is different from your does not mean it is incorrect. To say it is in correct; this is why I say give me the study with the proof.

Look I am sure using your method you have not lost a fish in years during the introduction period into your tank. You may have lost a fish b/c of a jumper, etc but not during the intro period into your tank. At the same rate I have had the exact same experience. Further I am sure you have had a fish not make during QT, I have had the same thing happen only my LFS takes responsibility for the loss and I get a new fish to QT.

So I am sure you can see that though we do things differently, in the end both ways work.

Lastly-
"Just case in point, there is one guy that just posted he doesn't QT any of his fish, just places them right into his tank. He feel if his current fish die from some thing the new fish had well then his fish weren't healthy and he not doing some thing right to begin with and his has larger problems. Do you think it's right not to say some thing to him?"

YES I would say something to this person, as you would as well. The difference is I would say if you can't QT your fish on your own, see if your LFS would do it for you, which is what I would do.

Do you understand what I am getting at?

We do the same thing just in dofferent ways, it doesn't mean they are wrong.


The poof is in the pudding-

 

[marrone]

You still don't get it do, you just really don't understand. Your Quaratine your fish for a short period of time, not enough time to see if the fish has any diseases that may develop afterwards. It also has nothing to do with who is doing to quaratine, either you or your LFS, which is what I posted before, it has to do with the amount of time of your quaratine.

Just like you would tell the person, who is not quaratine his fish at all, I'm telling you, and also want to make sure other know too, that you should quarartine your fish longer as diseases can show after the period that your fish where quaratine for.

I bet the person that doesn't quaratine his fish at all has a great tank just like you, and from his posts he hasn't lost any fish either. But it's not a good practice and it's an accident waiting to happen. Just because you haven't had any problems doesn't mean it's a good method, just check all over RC and other places and see the posts from people on how they didn't Quaratine fish long enough and the problems that developed afterwards. How they couldn't wait long enough or the fish looked ok and then after placing it in the main tank problems with diseases came about.

There are a lot of people who do things completely wrong and have great tanks, some times it's pure luck and the people get away with their mistakes, others don't. I'm not saying your one of them so don't take it that way.

 

[blstravler]

I'm not taking it that way at all.

In the end I think we just do things differently and that's cool.

I'll be honest if I had the room for a QT I would do one but, I don't think the wife will let me get away with that until she gets a new Range Rover, then again my response to that is 400gal in wall display.....

We can all dream.

 

[crabbypatty]

oh my god you guy's are funny as hell. good discussion, buy those angels those r so pretty please send me a picture when there settled. awsome looking .

 

[coolie]

great looking angels, thanks for posting them