Zero Impact SPS Systems
- Thread starter Dwarf Seahorses
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jmaneyapanda
Commencing hatred
No polyp in your tank may have come from the ocean, but if the mother colony did, you would not have that polyp without an impact. If we're going to throw around the term "zero impact", it has to be true, and have NO impact on the wild reef. Not quite piossible with corals, unless you obtain a sexually propogated specimen (which is very very unlikely).
Craig Lambert
Premium Member
I have purchased their detrivoire kit twice and am very happy with it. It doesn't include much in the way of a cleanup crew though. A few stomatilla and one other small snail who's name escapes me at the moment.
Craig Lambert
Premium Member
Isn't that kind of a "Chicken or the Egg" type argument? I set up a tank 18 months ago, and all of the sps in my tank are frags from other tanks. It doesn't follow that the sps in my tank are anything other than zero impact. Yes, somewhere there was a wild colony originally taken, but the frags in my tank are zero impact. If I choose to have sps frags in a tank, the impact is the same as if I choose not to.
Two choices with the live rock people will sell it to you and the ocean will remain alive on that rock , or the people will dredge it and use it for concrete. Thats the facts of life. Another fact is my little nano of 10 gallon gets fragged every couple months when stuff touches the glass. Break out the little mermaid calculator and figure out what the ocean can afford to lose from the hobby. What we need to do is get all the biodiversity out of the ocean we can. We as a small group wont turn any tide with collection. What will kill off the reef is nature itself- whether that nature is man and his doings, eathquakes, the natural cycle of warming and cooling, or the regular growth and die off that is the normal cycle of things. Only be dividing the oceans contents into public and private collections can true diversity be maintained in the long term. Of course that in itself could be considered un natural- but once people realise we are no lesser part of nature than any other animal or plant, they will understand anything we do is perfectly natural.
jmaneyapanda
Commencing hatred
What makes a coral zero impact then? Growth? That is all you have- a potentially wild caught coral that has been injured (fragged), and has healed. You are right, whether you buy this frag or not, it is still collected, but you cannot claim it is zero impact, because there was an impact.
Here is a better questions- if I go to Fiji, pull up an acro, bring it back to the US, chop it up, and mount the frags, can I sell it as aquacultured? At what time frame does this coral become "Aquacultured" rather than "wild collected"? If the answer is when all polyps were not grown in wild oceans, then we are talking about mere months in some cases, maybe less. But, nonetheless, it doesnt change the fact that that wild colony was collected, and ipso facto, did have an "impact" on the reef. Now, I know, I am just arguing semantics, but I feel it is a gross misclaim to say that we can call such an event zero impact. Perhaps, "aquarium" or "captive" grown is better.
jacob30
Member
This is really semantics. Yes the arguments you make and scenarios as to how it was collected are valid, but I think the intent of this is to set up a reef that has not directly taken a wild coral or a fish (IE caught in a net or pryed off a reef). This IMO is a noble cause and is moving this hobby in the right direction. Sure you could technically "cheat" and collect a wild colony and break it up and claim to have a tank just from frags but clearly this is not what the intent is.
You are really getting too knit picky here. Rather than support something that is trying to be conscientious there seems to be a lot of descention on semantics. Dissappointing IMO.
Jacob
You are really getting too knit picky here. Rather than support something that is trying to be conscientious there seems to be a lot of descention on semantics. Dissappointing IMO.
Jacob
jacob30
Member
Man has been trying to calculate nature for a long time and has failed miserably in almost every attempt. You are ill informed if you think man does not have a drastic impact on wild populations. Where are the millions of buffalo that use to roam? Where are the YangTze Dolphins? What happened to the Newfoundland Cod fisheries? Where are the giant White sea Bass in SOCAL that use to be very plentiful? All of these and many many more were erradicated by mans ability to calculate. I have walked Sicilian fish markets to see a baseball bat sized swordfish for sale when they use to be the size of telephone poles! Right now here in VA there is a new recreational fishery with no regulation that man is trying to calculate how many to take. A boat went out recently and caught over 300 Blue Line Tilefish for maybe a handful of fisherman. Currently it is unregulated and they are trying to regulate themselves with a 25 per/person catch based on how they feel. Our best calculation are full of bias from many sources. Rarely does the resource win.
Welcome to reality!
Your statements are one of the most ill informed and irresponsible statements I have read on RC. Do a little reading and educate yourself with the facts and not your political blinders. All of this from a red blooded, gun toting free thinker! :fun2:
Welcome to reality!
Your statements are one of the most ill informed and irresponsible statements I have read on RC. Do a little reading and educate yourself with the facts and not your political blinders. All of this from a red blooded, gun toting free thinker! :fun2:
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jmaneyapanda
Commencing hatred
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9807734#post9807734 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by jacob30
This is really semantics. Yes the arguments you make and scenarios as to how it was collected are valid, but I think the intent of this is to set up a reef that has not directly taken a wild coral or a fish (IE caught in a net or pryed off a reef). This IMO is a noble cause and is moving this hobby in the right direction. Sure you could technically "cheat" and collect a wild colony and break it up and claim to have a tank just from frags but clearly this is not what the intent is.
You are really getting too knit picky here. Rather than support something that is trying to be conscientious there seems to be a lot of descention on semantics. Dissappointing IMO.
Jacob
Jacob:
Before you start calling being uneducated, I really think you should get off your high horse. First off, who here has said that captive rasied frags are a bad idea? No one. No one is not supporting the thought. Case in point, my tank is exclusively frags from fellow hobbyist. I would rather get a captive frag than a wild colony. But, I will not be hypocritical enough to chastise wild collection, and claim I am "zero impact" when I am not. If you chosse to ignore the fact that your reefing has an impact, that is your choice. But dont claim to not be impacting the reef in doing so.
In my opinion, it is disturbing and disappointing to have a fellow reefer state their opinion on an open forum, and be bltantly berated by someone who is specualting wildly as to their intentions.
What do island people make concrete with - coral rock from the harbor-FACT No one is done any good by not using rock from these areas. Bringing up extinct or near extinct animals has no bearing on anything. We killed the buffalo thats as natural as you can get- you might not like it- but thats the reality. We cause much impact on the earth- the earth causes much impact on us- thats called "nature" Once again welcome to reality. You can "feel" anyway you want to do- thats a human thing. We all like to rationalize what we feel our part in the universe is, but once again- the "reality" of the matter is what we feel makes n o difference as to what is right or wrong in nature. I applaud people who try to protect their corner of the world- and much of my land is recognised as wildlife sanctuary. But the oceans need protection from things being put in, not taken out. I don`t mind bing called uneducated though- I still have my work setting up research labs- I still have my tanks displayed in museums. All the while your zipping around on your pollution machines you use for hobbies- as well as the electric use of that tank! Man you really are all about helping nature- just like ALGORE.
ReeferMonkey
Premium Member
This is a terrible, terrible idea to enact on the hobbyist level. How would you track origins? What about contamination from other areas in captive systems? The whole Bourneman/NOAA debacle has clarified that this is no simple exercise - even industry figures and the government can't get it right.
That is true RM- there is no way around it. The point I am making is kind of comming from a lot of directions- and is mostly tongue in cheek. THe only aspect of it that I am trying to hammer home is the aspect of we are no lesser part of nature and what we choose to do is perfectly natural. Goverments will continue to follow the uneducated lobbies and tree huggers and do piecemeal protections and conservations. This as usual will occur at the expense of other species. Industry will do as it wants and will continue to pay "fines" to dump whatever they can get away with. There is no way for a comprehensive plan same as there is no comprehensive plan for world peace. I have been impacted by CITES in my studies. There are things that are impossible to get that are going to go extinct in the short term due to habitate destruction. I could produce thousands of these animals for captive collections- but its better for them to be extinct.
smp
New member
lets not forget to the mention the environmental impact that your electrical usage creates.
We don't HAVE to have reef tanks.
I just try to be mindful, I realize that I can't have a zero impact tank but I try my best to adhere to commonly recognized practises like stocking with aquarium grown frags etc.
Even still, I have quite a few wild caught corals.
We don't HAVE to have reef tanks.
I just try to be mindful, I realize that I can't have a zero impact tank but I try my best to adhere to commonly recognized practises like stocking with aquarium grown frags etc.
Even still, I have quite a few wild caught corals.
jacob30
Member
I guess this is why I am so fired up about your statement. Maybe it is lost in internet exchange. Fundamentally I believe that we can choose not to harvest from destroyed fisheries or endangered ecosystems or threatened ecosystems (like the reefs of the florida keys and I am sure many other reefs). I believe in letting nature (IE: like the recent Solomon Island massive uplift of reefs) take it's course, but what I do not advocate is the short sited approach to natural resource harvesting that has happened throughout history and caused the largest extinction event in the Earth's history. I hear locally of blind ignorance when it comes to harvesting our local marine resources. The opinions of zealous fisherman who only care about their next trip out. The finding of new fisheries is evidence of declining old ones. (By the way the VMRC has limited the blue line tilefish to 7 per/person as of May 1st). I am also an avid conservation minded fisherman.
Mariculture, aquaculture and captive breeding is where this hobby needs to go absolutely IMO.
I love having a home reef and I do have a few wild colonies (regretfully in hindsight). On the other hand I have contributed far more than what I have reaped from the seas at face value (captive breeding and propagation) (yes you could add up everything and I am probrably a burden on this worlds resouces, but the realization of this and moving in the general right direction is why I make this post).
The idea of trying to have a zero impact or little impact or aquacultured reef is noble and worthy of supporting as hobbyist in general. I think for those that have kept reefs for a while that you come to realize the fragile nature of a microcosm and how we as hobbyist can keep a reef thriving for many years and cause a massive dieoff in mere hours.
This is not meant in any disrespectful way I am just very passionate about being a responsible aquarist that is why maybe this came off as berating.
Jacob
I think we all agree that aquaculture and captive breeding is the way to go. But restricting collecting will only limit what we can propigate- and the oceans will still be in peril. I also am not trying to be disrespectful- although I never called you uneducated. But I guess I did equate your boating,diving,flying,kitboarding and extreme electrical usage to ALGORE style of picking and choosing when to destroy the planet and when to try to get others to save it. And for that I apologise. These are the discussions that are important to have- and when we let the emotional side of it get in the way, we really are not receptive to learning from each other. We are all on the same team after all!
dvanacker
DID I SOUNDS SMRT??
Interesting thread guys. I'm conscious of the fact that my hobby can be somewhat harmful to the environment. But what I do and what I hope everyone in this hobby will consider is to minimize the impact on a realistic level. By this I mean....running and efficient tank with good reflectors, prop driven power heads vs. high draw closed loop pumps etc. as well I always prefer aquarium grown corals and aquaculture fish (when possible) and corals. I have just a few wild corals and probably would not buy wild ever again.
Also I take into account my aquarium when I make daily choices. Like the choice to recycle as much as possible and a purchase fuel efficient vehicles. Change out incandescent light bulbs for compact flouros...etc etc.
I still feel somewhat guilty about my tank......but I try to do my part in other ways. I think we have ignored mother earth too long and we all have to make an effort.
I think if we are all conscious of the fact
Also I take into account my aquarium when I make daily choices. Like the choice to recycle as much as possible and a purchase fuel efficient vehicles. Change out incandescent light bulbs for compact flouros...etc etc.
I still feel somewhat guilty about my tank......but I try to do my part in other ways. I think we have ignored mother earth too long and we all have to make an effort.
I think if we are all conscious of the fact
jmaneyapanda
Commencing hatred
Here is the unfortunate hurdle I see in this whole issue. There is no policing, organization, or uniformity in any nomenclature in this hobby. Furthermore, there is no "definitions" or baselines available. How do you define aquacultured vs. maricultured vs. wild? Where does fragging fall into these? Where does growth in natural seawater in the ocean, natural seawater in raceways, or artificial seawater fall into play? How about sunlight vs. filtered sunlight vs. artificial light? All these variables and these terms are used as marketing ploys nowadays, rather than as conservation aspects.
I, too, have a very strong passion for ecology and conservation. In this, I feel terminology must be contiguous and appropriate. Unfortunately, at this time, I feel this industry has no focus whatsoever on creating such a contiguous dictionary. What will stop any online company from doing exactly the hypothetical scenario I mentioned earlier (chopping up a wild acro and labelling it "aquacultured")? How many companies do that nowadays?! How long does a coral have to live in captive conditions to be call aquacultured? And under what conditions? These are the type of questions which must be answered, deliniated, published, and policed in order to have the ecology and conservation of reef hobby to have any validity.
Just my own humble opinion.
I, too, have a very strong passion for ecology and conservation. In this, I feel terminology must be contiguous and appropriate. Unfortunately, at this time, I feel this industry has no focus whatsoever on creating such a contiguous dictionary. What will stop any online company from doing exactly the hypothetical scenario I mentioned earlier (chopping up a wild acro and labelling it "aquacultured")? How many companies do that nowadays?! How long does a coral have to live in captive conditions to be call aquacultured? And under what conditions? These are the type of questions which must be answered, deliniated, published, and policed in order to have the ecology and conservation of reef hobby to have any validity.
Just my own humble opinion.
dvanacker
DID I SOUNDS SMRT??
Well anything grown in the actual ocean must be wild or maricultured in my mind.
Usually tank raised specimens I can ask the owner of the aquarium how long it has been in his tank and what generation is was his frag (if his colony was grown from an a aquarium grown frag and so on). That way I know the whole frag was grown in captivity. Frags from fellow reefers are the best IMO as they are already proven to grow and color in an aquarium and you get the good feeling that you are not taking from the oceans so there is less impact.
Usually tank raised specimens I can ask the owner of the aquarium how long it has been in his tank and what generation is was his frag (if his colony was grown from an a aquarium grown frag and so on). That way I know the whole frag was grown in captivity. Frags from fellow reefers are the best IMO as they are already proven to grow and color in an aquarium and you get the good feeling that you are not taking from the oceans so there is less impact.
You are dead onright. Years ago when we started beeding un breedable animals- people started to us C.B. insteat of captive bred. Of course that could mean captive born (eggs collected in wild) or collected in borneo or whatever else worked. The pet shops here in town just started calling all reptiles captive bred, and all fish net caught. The "scientific minded hobbiest" has really not helped in the mislabeling what with their need to use taxinomial names as common ones. Of course a large percetage of the time it is incorrectly named- but everyone uses it and a tax name f one species becomes the common name of another species(Plecostomus anyone). I still maintain that there cannot be a comprehensive world plan- and therefor personal responsibility is the key.
jmaneyapanda
Commencing hatred
Not trying to be a trouble maker, but here is where the "grey area" lays- "anything grown in the actual ocean must be wild or maricultrued"- which one? That is a huge difference. What about concrete raceways with flowthrough natural sea water (like in Fiji)? That is natural sun, natural water, just no ocean bed.
How do you determine generations in an organism that asexually reproduces? Duartion of life in captive conditions is a great method, but what vendor will ever know, or list this?
Again, make no mistakes, I think corals that come from fellow reefers tank are far better suited for our aquariums that ones from the reef, but the question is how is this established?
