I have never used a QT before for fish, but the more I read, the more it makes sense to use one, or at least have a hospital tank/ QT available when needed. My question, is I have a 10 gal I can use for one with filter etc. but is this too small for multiple fish for a couple days or will this work so long as the fish are very small, i.e. 2 inches or so?
10 gal QT
- Thread starter mitsurs01
- Start date
Urchinhead
Member
Fine for smaller fish and even some larger ones kept by themselves. Don't cycle the tank. Don't put live rock or sand in. Just use active carbon and water changes/testing to keep things where you want them.
wooden_reefer
New member
Absolutely cycle the medium intended for a QT, and very well.
Treating fish in QT without nitrification is generally a very bad idea.
When you are not not using any drug that will harm nitrification bacteria, the usefulness of nitrification is obvious. Copper to eradicate ich does not affect nitrification by much.
Some antibiotics will only mildly depress nitrification bacteria and some will gravely harm them.
It is best to use a power filter in QT with very well cycled medium. It is better to use a medium of filtration that can be removed easily from such a power filter when you have to use a drug that harms nitrification bacteria.
Do not give up on nitrification in QT; 90% plus you can use nitrification in QT.
It takes eight or more weeks of continuous active treatment to eradicate ich; changing water in QT for eight weeks to remove ammonia is not a plan.
Urchinhead
Member
Humm... Interesting. This goes against allot of the more recent information I came across in researching this very topic as well as my own experiences...
I say that for the following reason. While denitrifying bacteria is nice/beneficial it isn't necessarily required in my opinion since the alternatives are running active carbon and water change.
Are you advocating denitrifying bacteria as being more beneficial overall or as being mandatory?
I say that for the following reason. While denitrifying bacteria is nice/beneficial it isn't necessarily required in my opinion since the alternatives are running active carbon and water change.
Are you advocating denitrifying bacteria as being more beneficial overall or as being mandatory?
wooden_reefer
New member
Cycling is the cultivation of NITRIFICATION bacteria, not denitrification bacteria.
Ammonia is acutely toxic, nitrate is not significant for the two months in QT.
Urchinhead
Member
Pardon me. Nitrification bacteria. And yes, I do understand the process. I am not trying to be a wanker. I am actually curious as to your reasoning behind the need for it as opposed to mechanical filtration and export of ammonia via water change?
To me the objective is to remove ammonia et al from the QT and to maintain stable parameters. By parameters I mean SG, pH, Temp, NH3, NO3, and NO2. The method of doing so seems less important than the objective.
To me the objective is to remove ammonia et al from the QT and to maintain stable parameters. By parameters I mean SG, pH, Temp, NH3, NO3, and NO2. The method of doing so seems less important than the objective.
wooden_reefer
New member
Do you actually enjoy water change? What about just the expense of the salt? Would you want to do water change for eight weeks?
Cycling a medium in advance is far simplier.
And, you remove only 50% of the ammonia with 50% water change. A QT with 0.4 ppm ammonia will still have at least 0.2 ppm ammonia. 0.2 is still toxic, only less so.
And, and poops and uneaten food in QT is very dangerous as ammonia can surge rapidly in a QT without nitrification.
QT without nitrification is very messy and/or detrimental to fish. Avoid it as much as possible, and not much work is needed to avoid it.
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Chris27
New member
In my experience, I have found that having a QT that has a well cycled bacterial filter just makes the whole QT process that much simplier. Water changes really aren't necessary, testing for ammonia and nitrite always come up 0, and the fish adapt well and readily eat.
The purpose of a hospital tank is to treat a fish. We match pH, temp and salinity, why shouldn't we try to make the rest of the environment in the QT just the same as the DT?
The purpose of a hospital tank is to treat a fish. We match pH, temp and salinity, why shouldn't we try to make the rest of the environment in the QT just the same as the DT?
Urchinhead
Member
Do I enjoy water changes? How much does the salt cost? ... Seriously...? Ok... I will answer those questions as though you meant them and are not being a wanker...
Water changes... I neither enjoy nor do not enjoy them. I do them twice a week as a regular part of my routine.
Salt costs... $0.35 per gallon of Catalina NSW. So 8 weeks x 2 changes per week x 5 gallons (assuming your 50% model) comes out to $28...
50% reduction takes into account the water change portion. You are completely neglecting the other end which is the mechanical filtration. Plus your comment on undigested food makes little sense when coupled with your comment on water changes. If I am changing water why am I not sucking up the detritus?
Now your comments about dilution and nitrification make more sense. And I would agree. If you have the time to setup a medium in advance then do so. If you do not however you do not need to cycle your QT tank.
Water changes... I neither enjoy nor do not enjoy them. I do them twice a week as a regular part of my routine.
Salt costs... $0.35 per gallon of Catalina NSW. So 8 weeks x 2 changes per week x 5 gallons (assuming your 50% model) comes out to $28...
50% reduction takes into account the water change portion. You are completely neglecting the other end which is the mechanical filtration. Plus your comment on undigested food makes little sense when coupled with your comment on water changes. If I am changing water why am I not sucking up the detritus?
Now your comments about dilution and nitrification make more sense. And I would agree. If you have the time to setup a medium in advance then do so. If you do not however you do not need to cycle your QT tank.
wooden_reefer
New member
The cost of water change, not counting your labor, for 8 weight weeks of QT agains ich will likely be as much or more than the fish. Don't plan on twice a week for 50%. This is wildly optimistic if you want the ammonia level to be quite low. It depends on the size of the fish. I may agree that $30 worth of salt for one medium sized fish is realistic if you do not have nitrification in QT. May be twice that even.
What about Qting several fish at once?
Cycling the medium in advance for the QT is very easy, any very cheap in out-of-pocket expense and time.
And, you can get rid of ALL ammonia, not some or most.
Why argue against the obvious?
Urchinhead
Member
Because it actually isn't obvious and the methodology I propose is a viable and realistic alternative to the one you propose. Especially for a fish sized for a 10 gallon QT tank.
The way I am reading what you are proposing regarding the removal of ammonia seems to have a flaw by the way. Pardon me if I am misreading what you are saying but what it appears to me that you are implying when you say all of the ammonia will be gone using your method vs. mine is incorrect. The nitrifying bacterium does not instantly remove any and all ammonia in the system. You are also skipping over the equally or slightly less so harmful nitrite. Both will be present in the system to some degree as the Nitrosomonas convert the ammonia into nitrite and then into nitrate via Nitrobacters.
Both your method and mine will accomplish the same goal, no? That goal being reduction of wastes in the system that are harmful to fish. Yours does it via the nitrification process.
Mine does it via export and chemical filtration. My method, while arguably more labor intensive and possibly costly, is by far more expedient and requires little to no planning or advance preparation. Yours, while less labor intensive (this assumes that the sponge you would use for seeding doesn't require cleaning least it turn into a nitrate factory due to detritus buildup) and less costly, does require preplanning and preparation.
Furthermore it has been my experience that many fish purchases are 'impulse' buys (myself included though I usually research the fish before buying it just end up finding it out of no where and not planning ahead for it) and thus the foresight to have a pre-seeded medium for use. Ergo a method that does not involve nitrification bacterium on constant standby.
What concerns me here is that you are making the claim that there is no validity to my methodology. If that is not the case then you again have my apologies. If it is the case however and you are open to the possibility that I too may be right I will be happy to refer you to articles by several experts both in this field and others that will provide empirical evidence of the viability of my methodology so you can satisfy yourself that I am not talking out of my rear end.
The way I am reading what you are proposing regarding the removal of ammonia seems to have a flaw by the way. Pardon me if I am misreading what you are saying but what it appears to me that you are implying when you say all of the ammonia will be gone using your method vs. mine is incorrect. The nitrifying bacterium does not instantly remove any and all ammonia in the system. You are also skipping over the equally or slightly less so harmful nitrite. Both will be present in the system to some degree as the Nitrosomonas convert the ammonia into nitrite and then into nitrate via Nitrobacters.
Both your method and mine will accomplish the same goal, no? That goal being reduction of wastes in the system that are harmful to fish. Yours does it via the nitrification process.
Mine does it via export and chemical filtration. My method, while arguably more labor intensive and possibly costly, is by far more expedient and requires little to no planning or advance preparation. Yours, while less labor intensive (this assumes that the sponge you would use for seeding doesn't require cleaning least it turn into a nitrate factory due to detritus buildup) and less costly, does require preplanning and preparation.
Furthermore it has been my experience that many fish purchases are 'impulse' buys (myself included though I usually research the fish before buying it just end up finding it out of no where and not planning ahead for it) and thus the foresight to have a pre-seeded medium for use. Ergo a method that does not involve nitrification bacterium on constant standby.
What concerns me here is that you are making the claim that there is no validity to my methodology. If that is not the case then you again have my apologies. If it is the case however and you are open to the possibility that I too may be right I will be happy to refer you to articles by several experts both in this field and others that will provide empirical evidence of the viability of my methodology so you can satisfy yourself that I am not talking out of my rear end.
inktomi
Aviator
How long does it take to cycle a QT tank? Lets say I'm using a 30 gallon tank, bare bottom, with some PVC pieces for hiding and no light.
I could use a canister filter for filtration - but given that there's no live rock in the tank, and until the new fish arrive the tank is more or less empty - what's in there to cycle it?
I'm sure people don't keep their QT tanks running all the time - do they? What's the "start up time"? A couple weeks?
I could use a canister filter for filtration - but given that there's no live rock in the tank, and until the new fish arrive the tank is more or less empty - what's in there to cycle it?
I'm sure people don't keep their QT tanks running all the time - do they? What's the "start up time"? A couple weeks?
Jared J
New member
I keep mine running all the time but there are cultures you can use that will help cycle the tank within 24hrs. When I initally started my QT I used the Instant Ocean bacteria starter. after the first day ammonia was high but on day 2 it was 0 and has been ever since. Get a cheapo Whisper power filter or a Marineland Penguin.
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foster200
New member
I must be doing something wrong. My QT tank has been running for two days, with fish in there from hour 1. There is no live rock or sand, just glass. I used 30 gallons of my tank water to start. The ammonia yesterday was at 4.. not .4... 4! I did a 50% water change.. so that just makes it 2. How does it cycle without any rock or sand in there? All of my fish are alive, thankfully, but they are more stressed now then when they were with the ich. I was told to not run activated carbon because it would get rid of the meds that i was using. I just have a mechanical filter. I am 3 months into my tank and have been trying really hard to do whats best for them, reading, buying books, everything but there is so much to know about this hobby. What can i put in there for lower my ammonia levels? I had no idea they would blow up that fast. what can i do?!
tank o tang
Thread Lurker
Just be sure to toss qt media after the process is over. You don't want to put it back into your display system with anything on it.
If most treatments didn't kill beneficial bacteria wouldn't we be using live rock and not media?
If most treatments didn't kill beneficial bacteria wouldn't we be using live rock and not media?
wooden_reefer
New member
Please, when you cycle, you cultivate both Nitrosomonas and Nitrobacter. I have never heard of anyone saying that a cycle is complete when nitrite has just peaked. One generally completes a cycle by waiting for the nitrite to drop to zero.
Plan for effectiveness. This is always the key to this hobby.
If you are in a bind, you may have to do without nitrification in QT, but not by choice.
Learn to love to plan in advance. It is good for success in this hobby.
To eradicate ich, it takes 8 weeks of QT. Your fish may well be affected by long term exposure to low level of ammonia even if you take great effect to do WC to reduce ammonia.
In general, it is hard to keep ammonia level very low in QT without nitrification.
Not having to plan in advance is NOT an signficant advantage in this hobby; aquarists should have the habit of planning well, as an instinct.
wooden_reefer
New member
It takes about 4-5 weeks to cycle if the medium is submerged, as in a canister filter and a HOT power box in general.
It is faster with water dripping on the medium, about three weeks.
You should feed the bacteria in QT periodically with a source of ammonia if there is no bioload for long. Nitrification bacteria die of starvation but not quickly, slowly.
