10 months in - thinking about starting over

[Ted_C]

Please talk me out of it.

FYI - the vendors in this thread will remain anonomous. Don't ask - no answers via PM either.

When I first started out in saltwater (June of last year and started running in December). I never had any experience with saltwater or freshwater or any kind of tank. I needed a hobby that would appeal to my analytic nature (and boy oh boy did I find one eh?). I decided to aim high and go for an SPS tank.

two vendors in my area were brand new. I thought I would throw a little patronage their way and establish a relationship. I've learned now this was a huge mistake.

I used one piece of liverock from one vendor to seed my tank (Along with a cup of some live sand) (otherwise, I used Pukani as my rock). I asked him if there were pests on there and was assured there wasn't. Three months later, I have an infestation of Aiptasia that continues to this day. The copperband butterfly I have that was eating aiptasia has stopped eating it. I guess it prefers hunting for copepods or eating the mysis I feed everyday instead. I also brought in pineapple sponges on that one peice of rock that proliferate in my tank to this day.

The third coral I put into my tank (in February) was a hammer coral from another vendor. I really wanted something that my clowns would host eventually. Being new, I knew nothing about hammers. It had a bit of dead stalk with little tubes sticking out - thought it was just part of the hammer and the way it grew and left parts of itself behind. Only yesterday did I figure out that these tubes were vermetid snails. I now have an infestation of vermetid that have been irriatating my SPS (and sometimes killing them). I had a rather large disaggrement with this vendor so I am hesitant to pursue any communication to allow him to rectify the issue.

So I pondered my problem last night. What can I do to eliminate these vermetid? It appears (from my reading) if you dont nip them in the bud - your stuck with them. I figure the copperband may re-develop a taste for the aiptasia so I'm not too worried about that.

Livestock:
A reproducing population of stomatella snails (lots of em)
a reproducing population of strombus snails (lots of em)
a reproducing population of Mexican Turbo snails (three adults - maybe 5 or 6 juveniles)
5-6 Black/white legged micro hermits
3 Skunk Cleaner Shrimp (spawns regularally)
Who knows how many microbrittle stars are living in the rock
Who Knows how many bristle worms I have living in the rock
Who knows how many spaghetti worms I have living in the rock

4 blue green chromis
3 neon goby
2 Davinci clowns
1 female bellus angel
1 Bangaii Cardinal
1 Copperband Butterfly
1 Blue Eyed Tomini Tang
1 5" blue squamosa clam

40 sticks (at least) of Various SPS.

1 Hammer Coral
1 Leather Toadstool.

The only thing I can think to do is start from scratch:

frag all my SPS sticks (I have over 40+ sticks in my tank) with some encrusting to the rocks already haven taken place

The hammer coral is a complete loss - I cant frag it or cut it to remove the vermetid snail tubes without getting into the fleshy white section of it's base.

Take out all the rock

Replace with new (cured) pukani.

I think I can cover the continued operation of the tank with the fish and frags still in there. I'm running two Ceramic Biomedia blocks that I had heard kept someone else's 300DD operational for 3+ months with no rock.

Unless someone can give a good way to eliminate these vermetid snails - I can think of no other recourse.

Here's some pics of some damage they have done:

My monti undata on 8/7

10 days later (8/17):

A few shots of that hammer coral when first introduced (3/3)

a blue polyp purple tort that's been infected with a vermetid (you can even see the stringer in this shot)

The tort when it was new

 

[aguila88psi]

Try a yellow coris wrasse, problem is it needs sand to sleep at night so you may need to make a hotel for him/her as well .

Don't give up, hang in there. Most of these pests die off eventually. Also, try spot feeding the fish (small amounts over a period of time) instead of broadcast feeding (feeding a whole serving of food all at once). This way the pests don't catch that much food and eventually die off.

 

[Dashylock]

How big is your tank?

That pic of the hammer actually looks like a frogspawn, imo.

 

[aguila88psi]

I was a noob too, started mid summer last year as well. I now know the absolute most important thing to do to your display tank is to quarentine everything. This includes corals, fish, inverts, rocks, etc.

 

[BobbyV]

Yes Yes Yes .. .. .. I know this story all too well.

I started with a 29 BIO Cube 5 years ago and had no idea what I was doing. I made every newbie mistake possible!

Then a year later I upgraded to a 120 and purchased some Live Rock .. .. .. HUGE mistake unless you know where the rock originated from.

With my 300DD now I bought a bunch of Pukani and just threw it in after bleaching and skipped the acid bath and RO soaking .. .. .. tons of GHA as a result.

Now I restarted over again 8 months ago .. .. .. now no algae, no pests, no aptasia.

Faster your bite the bullet the less you will be wasting money battling current problems .. .. .. I would highly suggest BB since you are making the effort to clear out the tank.

Your next months will not be enjoyable but your quality of life moving forward once you finally get it all back together will be easy street!

I dip everything that goes into the my system now .. .. .. sounds bad but I would rather potentially kill the coral by dipping than bring in any "unfavorables".

My attitude is that is hobby has a very long life cycle .. .. take your time and be as prejudice as possible to protect your investment/commitment.

I also discovered that this hobby has it's ups and down - love/hate.

Just last week I was thinking of selling my entire system if you can believe it.

My wife talked me out of it of all people! :lol:

 

[Ted_C]

How big is your tank?

That pic of the hammer actually looks like a frogspawn, imo.

120 gallon display, 90 gallon sump. Total system volume at 165 gallons. Could be a frogspawn. I really dont pretend to know softies. Just wanted something for the clowns to host.

I now know the absolute most important thing to do to your display tank is to quarentine everything.

This and your other advice are great ideas. It's going to take a long time for me to starve these vermetid. I'm a little worried that my coral wont survive this.

One thing I wanted to bring up where we differ: Fish - yes - Quarantine definetly. I have quarantined almost all my fish (sometimes to my detriment). When I buy other things from a vendor though (like rock or coral) - I expect top level of professionalism and knowledge. Maybe FAOIS and Ocean Lifers has spoiled me in this regard (by the way - I've had no pests / problems / diseases introduced by dealing with FAOIS or Ocean Lifers - these guys keep clean well medicated tanks). I expect my corals to be free of AEFW and red bugs and other pests when I buy from stores.

My lesson learned will be to not buy from new vendors who don't know what they are doing.

 

[Ted_C]

I would highly suggest BB since you are making the effort to clear out the tank.

went BB 4 months ago Bobby - siphoned it out over a month with 20 gallon water changes - but thanks for the advice

I'm struggling with this decision to rip out everything I have for a few remaining questions:
Even if I rip everything out - what are the chances I have vermetid in the plumbing or in the sump?
Even if I frag all my sticks - what are the chances the vermetid would be in the new frags? I plan on just taking the sticks - not the encrusting part but I have no knowledge on how they really live.
I dont yet know how to frag the encrusting montis - that'd be a challenge for me to figure out
I'd be killing alot of biodiversity (MicroBrittle stars, Bristleworms, Copepods, other snails). No way around that I guess.

So my best efforts to erradicate would be wasted as they already exist elsewhere (or in things that would be making the transfer to the new set-up).

Take the aiptasia - I know I have this growing in the sump. Even if I rip out all of the rock - I'll still have it and it will eventually get back up into the display.

Pros: New rock = new aquascape - that'd be nice to get the aquascape that better fits my tank architecture.

Cons: There's a chance that my two current pests will come back.

 

[bhuddafunk]

I have vermetid snails as well and while they are a annoying with their nets, they actually haven't killed anything that I'm aware of in my tank. They are sharp as hell though. If you feel that a particular snail is irritating the coral you could do what I do. I scrape off the shell then cover the remains with epoxy since the snail usually survives by going deeply into the shell. I wouldn't spend too much time trying to get rid of them since I have never found a way to get rid of them, I've found a way to live with the necessary evil that I just can't purge. Good Luck

 

[oldsaint]

Maybe FAOIS and Ocean Lifers has spoiled me in this regard (by the way - I've had no pests / problems / diseases introduced by dealing with FAOIS or Ocean Lifers - these guys keep clean well medicated tanks). I expect my corals to be free of AEFW and red bugs and other pests when I buy from stores.

In 10 years I have seen or have recieved a pest from every LFS I've purchased from. IMO, The lesson learned here is everyone and every store has pests, QT EVEYTHING!!

 

[Ted_C]

Ok - so someone else mentioned Emerald Crabs. Seems hit or miss though (I have only read of one success actually - all the others chimed in and said its a miss).

I have also read that acro crabs will clean up the stringers from the SPS - maybe that could help starve them out?

 

[anbosu]

There is some good advice in here, I think.

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1500253

I don't how many you have in your tank, but there are some options that don't sound too bad in there.

 

[ReefKeeper64]

Hey Ted,

You brought up a good point about concerns of stuff hiding in your plumbing. Visual removal is no guarantee ever. I wouldn't hit the reset button just from the issues you are seeing but if you decided to, I wouldn't be too worried about it. Just plan to move the corals to a coral hospital tank for treatment, the fish to a fish QT (maybe a preventative treatment since they are in there anyways), and then treat the entire display tank - plumbing and all. I think I saw mention of possibly replacing the rock but I wouldn't do that because it wouldn't solve the problem by itself.

 

[leveldrummer]

pineapple sponges are harmless filter feeders that will reach a sustainable level to how much food you have, less food, less sponges.

as for the vermitid snails, Ive never had any issues with them harming ANYTHING. Ive seen their fishing lines annoy some corals, but not much. Im betting you have some other issues your nt aware of. If you wanna get rid of the snails, just take a butter knife and snap their tube off anything you can see it on. Or cover the hole with a dab of super glue gel.

That tort and undata look like their dying from something else.

 

[Egkid]

I'm going to disagree with this being the LFS's fault. This is just a case of being to new to a hobby, you can do all research you want but it doesn't make up for experience. Everything that was purchased was in plain sight to you, right? It was lack of experience it not knowing what to look for when purchasing corals or live rock.

I guarantee you'll go over what ever you buy in the future way more carefully. I'm sure almost every tank that started with live rock has vermetid snails by the way.

 

[Ted_C]

I would partially Agree EgKid and I would also disagree.

Take it this way - when you buy hamburger from a gorcery store - do you expect it to contain e-Coli?
When you buy a hamburger from mcDonalds do you expect to get sick from it (well - ok - maybe a bad example - McDonalds never really does agree with me).

The point is - these people are selling a product and they have become experts in their product. They know where e-coli comes from, how to prevent it, and how to sell untainted meat. Heck they probably even take cultures of lots within their meat to ensure there is no e-coli.

Your not expected to be able to observe e-coli in the store when you purchase your product right (or to even understand what it is)? You trust they did their job. if they don't - they get identified by the FDA and face civil and criminal litigation.

I expect the same from my LFS. I expect my LFS to observe their environments and to understand what they have and to be an expert in what they are selling.

If the vermatid did come in on the frogspawn frag- they didn't appear magically. I bet the LFS is infested with Vermatid. Either the LFS knows and doesn't care or the LFS is not an expert and doesn't realize there is an issue or an interaction between vermetids and SPS.

The part I agree with: I may not have stated how I am 99% SPS and only wanted the frogspawn for the clowns. I also did not know that vermetid would react in such a way to undata. As far as I know - Vermetid can get along with softies just fine (or maybe not - heck I dunno). I'm also getting pushback and skepticism in another thread I have that vermetid may not have caused my issue with the undata which makes me question if my observation is holding up.

Another partial agreement: if the LFS only sells softies and has no SPS for sale and doesn't pretend to be an expert between softies and SPS interactions - then I'd give that one to you too (assuming softies are not affected by vermetid).

 

[Postal]

I'm sorry, but I just don't think your expectations of LFS's are realistic. You mention FAOIS and Ocean Lifers but I bet John and Terry would be the first people to tell you to QT ALL livestock if you don't want to risk disease or bad hitchhikers making to your display tank. Yes, there are good and bad fish stores, but not even the best of them have the ability to QT for weeks every single organism that they receive before selling it. It is just not economically feasible. Even the best stores in the area are going to have the occasional piece of bubble algae or aiptasia. If keeping your tank clean of aiptasia and vermetid worms is your goal, then it might be time to find a different hobby for your analytical side. And I with others about the alleged vermetid damage to the undata. I just can't see it. I have had them all over my tank at times, and at most they slightly irritated corals.
Your issues just dont rise to a level that would suggest starting over. Especially when you could be back in the same place a year from now if you dont qt your corals.

 

[laserjim]

Don't start over, Just buy a crap load of shrimp to control it. You'll be ok. Unless money is no issue, Go for it. would look cool with a couple dozen shrimp in there.

 

[laserjim]

The shrimp would probably sit on the corals and irritate them though. I had a hawk fish that did that. Had a heck of a time getting him out of there.

 

[Ted_C]

ok Postal then tell me what can cause this rapid loss of tissue in ten days? I'm seriously at a loss to explain it.

 

[ahub421]

Try to imagine you are further along and something else crawls out of that rock. I have seen that happen on my nephews tank. It's like risking everything each time you introduce anything even hermits if it's not done right. Never take any chances no matter who or where it comes from!! it's just not worth the risk. For me I add small tanks within my frag tank to quarantine different things. I dip once on the way in and dip again in 10 days (for hatching eggs that survived the first dip) and put it / them back into a clean tank & water then wait for two to three weeks before ever considering adding them into the general population. Yes that stresses corals big time but I would much rather deal with some dying than have to loose my whole tank. I also cut away all (if it can be) of the plug or rock and glue the frag onto a known clean rock on the way in. Fish need a couple of months before I think of adding them.

I say pay the price now to get peace of mind and a clean path forward.