ReefKeeper64
Wanna be a reefkeeper
Good info John, you summed it up well and thanks for sharing that.
10 months in - thinking about starting over
- Thread starter Ted_C
- Start date
Good info John, you summed it up well and thanks for sharing that.
MrHarvard
"ship it"
Thats a good looking digi! Seeing that pic is another reason I wouldnt start over! Looking at that pic and some of the others u have posted it seems like you have your tank "dialed in" and that is an accomplishment in its own. In terms of an sps tank your system is young and to have this balance already thats great! I personally would try my best to reduce there numbers with any means you can and see if you can get it under control. Ill be following and good luck!
bhuddafunk
New member
Acro Crabs are available from liveaquaria but they are hit an miss as far as having them in stock. I would simply chose notify me when they are in stock. when you get the email saying they are in stock order immediately. That is what I was able to do and I added two to my tank about 3 months ago.
ichthyman
Active member
Don't thank me it was Ted's link. I just wasn't as subtle.
Ted_C
Active member
I emailed Jeff Shima - the author of that study. Here's what he had to say
I took the past week since I observed this to try and correct a few issues: I have been running a filter sock - changed out twice per day (it was a pain last week with all the rain we had - I was almost into ten filter socks until I could get the hose out and clean them up).
I took a pair of tweezers (bent the crap out of them too) to all the little tubes everywhere I could see and get too and scraped them off and glued up their areas. I completely covered the entire brown area of the frogspawn with glue. I keep seeing more
Sunday I woke up to find Emmett's Purple tort shedding it's Purple skin - just ripped right off of the white carbonate skeleton.
What I think is happening now with this tissue loss on the tort, the ultimate purple monster and a little bit on the red dragon: I went from a low nutrient system (Low P, never could detect NO3) to an ultra low nutrient system. Couple that with my chemistry and I'm burning out these corals. tests from Sunday:
NO3: Undetectable
P: 10 PPB (converted to phosphate: 0.031)
Salinity: 1.026 / 34 PPT
kH: 9.3
Ca: 430 PPM
Mg: 1360 PPM
I've dropped my dosing from 125 ml a day of 2 part to 75 ml per day of two part. I've also stretched out the alk dosing to account for the longer period of no lights.
I took the past week since I observed this to try and correct a few issues: I have been running a filter sock - changed out twice per day (it was a pain last week with all the rain we had - I was almost into ten filter socks until I could get the hose out and clean them up).
I took a pair of tweezers (bent the crap out of them too) to all the little tubes everywhere I could see and get too and scraped them off and glued up their areas. I completely covered the entire brown area of the frogspawn with glue. I keep seeing more
Sunday I woke up to find Emmett's Purple tort shedding it's Purple skin - just ripped right off of the white carbonate skeleton.
What I think is happening now with this tissue loss on the tort, the ultimate purple monster and a little bit on the red dragon: I went from a low nutrient system (Low P, never could detect NO3) to an ultra low nutrient system. Couple that with my chemistry and I'm burning out these corals. tests from Sunday:
NO3: Undetectable
P: 10 PPB (converted to phosphate: 0.031)
Salinity: 1.026 / 34 PPT
kH: 9.3
Ca: 430 PPM
Mg: 1360 PPM
I've dropped my dosing from 125 ml a day of 2 part to 75 ml per day of two part. I've also stretched out the alk dosing to account for the longer period of no lights.
aguila88psi
Zoa Addict
yep, drop your alk to 7.5-8 ish for ulns
aguila88psi
Zoa Addict
I've always wondered about macro algea in a refugium.
Does macro algea dump nutrients back into the tank if no nutrients exist as it begins to die off? My answer to this is yes, even with chaeto but I have no proof to back what I believe. So essentially by removing the excess chaeto your removing the nutrients that could potentially have been pushed back into your system further decreasing nutrients in the system.
Does macro algea dump nutrients back into the tank if no nutrients exist as it begins to die off? My answer to this is yes, even with chaeto but I have no proof to back what I believe. So essentially by removing the excess chaeto your removing the nutrients that could potentially have been pushed back into your system further decreasing nutrients in the system.
Ted_C
Active member
Ahh - but the bigger the ball of chaeto - the more celluar structure you have to snap up those nutrients.
I've never thought of it as an ebb-flow relationship where chaeto dies off or increases mass as nutrients decrease / increase. I thought of it more as the chaeto that's already there goes dormant if it doesn't have the conditions or nutrients to grow (not die off).
As far as I know, the only thing that makes algae die off is lack of light. lack of nutrients would prohibit growth but I dont think it would cause it to die.
That purple tort - I just looked at it over the webcam - its almost completly white. The base is gone. The tip is gone. There's a spot in the middle that has a bit of purple to it. I wonder if I should kill the dosers completely over the next few days and re-test wednesday.
I've never thought of it as an ebb-flow relationship where chaeto dies off or increases mass as nutrients decrease / increase. I thought of it more as the chaeto that's already there goes dormant if it doesn't have the conditions or nutrients to grow (not die off).
As far as I know, the only thing that makes algae die off is lack of light. lack of nutrients would prohibit growth but I dont think it would cause it to die.
That purple tort - I just looked at it over the webcam - its almost completly white. The base is gone. The tip is gone. There's a spot in the middle that has a bit of purple to it. I wonder if I should kill the dosers completely over the next few days and re-test wednesday.
aguila88psi
Zoa Addict
That's the way I always thought as well, the more macro algea you have the more you can soak up nutrients until you think of every living thing in your tank as being a potential nutrient input.
Also, I didn't want to be the one to ask this but its a plausible question. Have you checked for ammonia? I would hate to see or hear about another fellow reefers tank fall to the infamous "Chloramine" plague.
Also, I didn't want to be the one to ask this but its a plausible question. Have you checked for ammonia? I would hate to see or hear about another fellow reefers tank fall to the infamous "Chloramine" plague.
Last edited:
rogergolf66
im an addict lol
That's a sensitive subject with Ted
just kidding. hope u figure it out. It sucks to start over. I would imagine that teds RO setup is running at tip top shape removing chloramines with all the fun debate that's been going on Roger
aguila88psi
Zoa Addict
Very true Roger , but I recall Ted posting recently doing a switch in salts and doing larger then normal waterchanges.
, but I recall Ted posting recently doing a switch in salts and doing larger then normal waterchanges.
Ted_C
Active member
Yes - that's true Haha. Not really a sore spot - I just hate to see people buying the more expensive stuff thats pedaled on us. That's truly my pet peeve. Bad science backed up by good convincing marketing.
I just ordered new filters (Sediment and Carbon). The TDS out of my RO is creeping up a bit (at 22 instead of 15). I've been running these filters since June. Out of the DI it's always zero though, I just changed the DI out before making the water for my last water change (two weeks ago). Its getting to the color consistency telling me Its time to change it out again.
The larger water changes - 50 gallons in a 165 gallon system (30%) is just because I have a 55 gallon brute that I haven't been using. Wasn't to correct anything or to alleviate any issues. I mostly started using it again because of the red slime remover - it calls for a 20% water change and I have nothing in my arsenal to accomplish only 20%. Figured 30% wouldn't hurt. Salt switch - I used one bucket of the Red Sea Coral pro Salt - ran out during my last water change two weeks ago. So I had that bucket since (when did Terry have the Red Sea Guys in his shop - was that June?).
I dont have a test for ammonia. If I do have any ammonia with the 70 #'s of live rock, the two ceramic cubes, I'd be very suprised. There's really no problem with nuisance algae at this time either - which I would use over a test kit to tell me I really have a problem.
Why - you may ask - is my salinity back down to 34 PPT since my last water change? After receiving all of this advice - I went to FAOIS to pick up ten felt socks. Got home that tuesday night and discovered a new feature to my aquarium - a water fountain!
The plumbing on the return pump had come loose (it was only a 1" piece of tube attached to the pump's threaded top with multiple plastic zip ties to cinch it). that was a disaster waiting to happen and I pretty much figured it would happen at one point. What aggravated my situation - I have re-done my return plumbing to support a 57W UV sterilzer and two sea swirls. I've increased my back pressure on the pump considerably by adding 90's and tee's where there was once only a wye (and reduced the plumbing from 1" to 3/4"
I left this out of the original thread - as I hadn't made these changes between the two undata pics.
Blew out probably 10 gallons of saltwater. The good news - the ATO got wet and wouldn't run - so I only dumped water and didn't replace it with fresh water.
Mixed up a quick batch of Io Reef Crystals to replace what blew out (but probably didn't mix enough - so some top off did occur), cleaned off all the equipment that got soaked by the jet of water shooting up from the return well (one powerbar - one salinity probe, the powerpack for one MP10, and the ATO (replaced that with the ATO from my silent Biocube to hold me over till I could get it dried out).
I have since replaced the plumbing with 3/4" union and a 3/4" 90 barbed adapter. If it lets go again, the water will shoot sideways instead of up into the electronics.
It's really not my month to be reefing. I'm hitting every possible problem I can have within my first year.
I turned off the dosers for the next few days. We'll see how quick the values come down.
I just ordered new filters (Sediment and Carbon). The TDS out of my RO is creeping up a bit (at 22 instead of 15). I've been running these filters since June. Out of the DI it's always zero though, I just changed the DI out before making the water for my last water change (two weeks ago). Its getting to the color consistency telling me Its time to change it out again.
The larger water changes - 50 gallons in a 165 gallon system (30%) is just because I have a 55 gallon brute that I haven't been using. Wasn't to correct anything or to alleviate any issues. I mostly started using it again because of the red slime remover - it calls for a 20% water change and I have nothing in my arsenal to accomplish only 20%. Figured 30% wouldn't hurt. Salt switch - I used one bucket of the Red Sea Coral pro Salt - ran out during my last water change two weeks ago. So I had that bucket since (when did Terry have the Red Sea Guys in his shop - was that June?).
I dont have a test for ammonia. If I do have any ammonia with the 70 #'s of live rock, the two ceramic cubes, I'd be very suprised. There's really no problem with nuisance algae at this time either - which I would use over a test kit to tell me I really have a problem.
Why - you may ask - is my salinity back down to 34 PPT since my last water change? After receiving all of this advice - I went to FAOIS to pick up ten felt socks. Got home that tuesday night and discovered a new feature to my aquarium - a water fountain!
The plumbing on the return pump had come loose (it was only a 1" piece of tube attached to the pump's threaded top with multiple plastic zip ties to cinch it). that was a disaster waiting to happen and I pretty much figured it would happen at one point. What aggravated my situation - I have re-done my return plumbing to support a 57W UV sterilzer and two sea swirls. I've increased my back pressure on the pump considerably by adding 90's and tee's where there was once only a wye (and reduced the plumbing from 1" to 3/4"
I left this out of the original thread - as I hadn't made these changes between the two undata pics.
Blew out probably 10 gallons of saltwater. The good news - the ATO got wet and wouldn't run - so I only dumped water and didn't replace it with fresh water.
Mixed up a quick batch of Io Reef Crystals to replace what blew out (but probably didn't mix enough - so some top off did occur), cleaned off all the equipment that got soaked by the jet of water shooting up from the return well (one powerbar - one salinity probe, the powerpack for one MP10, and the ATO (replaced that with the ATO from my silent Biocube to hold me over till I could get it dried out).
I have since replaced the plumbing with 3/4" union and a 3/4" 90 barbed adapter. If it lets go again, the water will shoot sideways instead of up into the electronics.
It's really not my month to be reefing. I'm hitting every possible problem I can have within my first year.
I turned off the dosers for the next few days. We'll see how quick the values come down.
Ted_C
Active member
Is it really vermetid that's causing this?
Is it really vermetid that's causing this?
As of Sunday - 8/25, I am down to 10 total hours of photoperiod - with a ramp up of 240 minutes and a ramp down of 240 minutes.
One important item that I've been tripping up on - this damage to the montipora really started when I changed my photoperiod duration. The Purple Tort with the vermetid tube is also showing damage now - losing it's tissue and leaving the white skeleton behind.
What really changed with the change in my photoperiod? I lost a morning (meaty) feeding and replaced it with two pellet autofeedings at 12:00 and 15:00. I still have a meaty feeding when I get home from work around 17:00...
Could it be that I reduced the available nitrates and phosphates to the point that the alkalinity was too high for the tank - causing "burning" of the tissue? Could it be the reduction on nitrates and phosphates stressed the corals to the point that they became more susceptible to the vermetid snails? Is it a combination of both? Why am I only seeing tissue loss in a few of the SPS while others appear to be still going gang busters?
Of the 40 SPS frags I have, the only problems appear to be with 5 of them: Jeff Berg's Blue Staghorn (severe tissue loss to death 1 1/2 months ago) Montipora Undata (severe tissue loss but not quite dead yet) Emmetts Purple Tort (severe tissue loss but not quite dead yet), Original Red Dragon (minor tissue loss), Ultimate Purple Monster (minor tissue loss) Nathan's green millipora (polyps retracted), ORA Red Planet (Polyps retracted). When I say tissue loss - it's not bleaching. I can actually see flakes of the tissue coming off the SPS - leaving the skeleton behind.
The good guys:
Red Montipora Digitata is doing great (both my Pedro and Jeff Berg Frags). Vivid Blue Monster is doing great, Montipora Confusa is doing great, Vivid Icle Tort doing great, Pedro's Monitporas are doing great too (Superman and hercules), Vivid Rainbow Montipora is doing great, all three birdsnests are doing ok (Emmett Green, Rodger's Pink and Coral Corral's Ponape). Creative's Green Acropora is great, Jeff berg's Coral Cup, ORA pearlberry and Miyagi Torts all look to be doing great too. Faois' blue acropora and ORA Marhsall islands green bottlebrush are great. The stylophoras and pocciliporas are also doing great.
I've also just started running filter socks changed out twice per day since last tuesday. The nutrients I used to have floating around my system are now being exported more aggresively with this method (in a combined effort to bring down the vermetid snail population). It seems like a fairly strong correlation to me that I've reduced my nutrients and not reduced alkalinity (or a better way to say it - I left my Alkalnity at higher levels) - causing the problem with the tort. It's also possible that the montipora undata had the same problem but succembed much faster to the change in nutrients (and/or was aggravated by the Vermetid problems).
Rodger and I had this exact conversation when we were in Terry's shop discussing Red Sea Coral pro salt, it's higher parameters and the requirement to have Nitrates and Phosphates within a certain range.
Is it really vermetid that's causing this?
As of Sunday - 8/25, I am down to 10 total hours of photoperiod - with a ramp up of 240 minutes and a ramp down of 240 minutes.
One important item that I've been tripping up on - this damage to the montipora really started when I changed my photoperiod duration. The Purple Tort with the vermetid tube is also showing damage now - losing it's tissue and leaving the white skeleton behind.
What really changed with the change in my photoperiod? I lost a morning (meaty) feeding and replaced it with two pellet autofeedings at 12:00 and 15:00. I still have a meaty feeding when I get home from work around 17:00...
Could it be that I reduced the available nitrates and phosphates to the point that the alkalinity was too high for the tank - causing "burning" of the tissue? Could it be the reduction on nitrates and phosphates stressed the corals to the point that they became more susceptible to the vermetid snails? Is it a combination of both? Why am I only seeing tissue loss in a few of the SPS while others appear to be still going gang busters?
Of the 40 SPS frags I have, the only problems appear to be with 5 of them: Jeff Berg's Blue Staghorn (severe tissue loss to death 1 1/2 months ago) Montipora Undata (severe tissue loss but not quite dead yet) Emmetts Purple Tort (severe tissue loss but not quite dead yet), Original Red Dragon (minor tissue loss), Ultimate Purple Monster (minor tissue loss) Nathan's green millipora (polyps retracted), ORA Red Planet (Polyps retracted). When I say tissue loss - it's not bleaching. I can actually see flakes of the tissue coming off the SPS - leaving the skeleton behind.
The good guys:
Red Montipora Digitata is doing great (both my Pedro and Jeff Berg Frags). Vivid Blue Monster is doing great, Montipora Confusa is doing great, Vivid Icle Tort doing great, Pedro's Monitporas are doing great too (Superman and hercules), Vivid Rainbow Montipora is doing great, all three birdsnests are doing ok (Emmett Green, Rodger's Pink and Coral Corral's Ponape). Creative's Green Acropora is great, Jeff berg's Coral Cup, ORA pearlberry and Miyagi Torts all look to be doing great too. Faois' blue acropora and ORA Marhsall islands green bottlebrush are great. The stylophoras and pocciliporas are also doing great.
I've also just started running filter socks changed out twice per day since last tuesday. The nutrients I used to have floating around my system are now being exported more aggresively with this method (in a combined effort to bring down the vermetid snail population). It seems like a fairly strong correlation to me that I've reduced my nutrients and not reduced alkalinity (or a better way to say it - I left my Alkalnity at higher levels) - causing the problem with the tort. It's also possible that the montipora undata had the same problem but succembed much faster to the change in nutrients (and/or was aggravated by the Vermetid problems).
Rodger and I had this exact conversation when we were in Terry's shop discussing Red Sea Coral pro salt, it's higher parameters and the requirement to have Nitrates and Phosphates within a certain range.
aguila88psi
Zoa Addict
Interesting points Ted, Monti's and Digi's tend to be less demanding in placement, lighting, flow and water quality so they can thrive better, maybe its time for more fish poop?? I have 15 fishes in my 90g tank including a large Blue hippo and Yellow Tang 
, lets me run my alk at 12+
, lets me run my alk at 12+
ichthyman
Active member
IMO, the abundant suspended organic load is the reason Ted's tank experienced the explosion of Vermetids. Any population is regulated primarily by availability of a suitable food source(s). Control specific nutrients and you can regulate the life dependent on said nutrients. Making more "poop" available at this time will not assist in diminishing his plague.
sirrealism
New member
I have been watching this thread since the start. I had not heard of these snails but had seen the snot. My high end zoes do not like the snot so I have spent several hours reading and trying to find something to take care of them. I spent an hour last night with a pair of needle nose breaking them off out of the tank and giving them a dip. I dont have much rock and most all my stuff is on frag plugs so it made it simple. I am sure I did not get them all by a long shot so I have read some people have had luck with bumble bee snails so I ordered 15 yesterday. Ted I wish you the best of luck and hope your tank makes A turn for the better.
Ted_C
Active member
Update - 9/3.
I'm at a loss here. Really starting to get discouraged. I can't find an answer what's causing this.
8/20 - Started running filter socks changed out twice per day. Had an accident with the return pump - dropped salinity to 34 PPT (1.026).
8/24 - Noticed the "Emmett's Blue Polyp Purple Tort was losing it's flesh. Took the tweezers and superglue to as many of the snail tubes as I could see and get too.
8/25 - Alk 9.2, Ca 430, Mg 1360
8/26 - The tort just got worse and worse. Stopped all 2 part dosing (was at 125 ml of 2 part)
8/29 - Down to 9 hours of total photoperiod with a ramp up of 2 hours (instead of 4) and a ramp down of 2 hours (instead of 4)
8/30 - Switched salts from IO Reef Crystals to normal red sea sea salt (for lower alk). Performed a 50 gallon water change with 36 PPT (1.028) water. Salinity in the tank back to 35.5 PPT or 1.027
8/31 - testing: 6.4 Alk, 430 PPM Ca, 1280 Mg. Started the dosers back up. Instead of dosing Alk at Night and Ca in the day, I re-programed the apex to dose Alk on every hour, Ca 15 minutes into the hour, and Mg 30 minutes into the hour. It takes 10 minutes for the dose to disperse throughout the sump (I can see the delay on my pH probe). Dosing 100 Ml of Alk and Ca. Dosing 25 ml of Mg.
9/2 Testing: 6.7 Alk, 460 PPM Ca, 1320 Mg.
I still see snail tubes and mucus nets in my tank. I also see several aiptasia that really annoy me. Nothing close to corals yet though.
Emmett's Blue Polyp Purple Tort is pretty much gone. There's a bit still left
The red dragon's damage is getting worse
The ultimate purple monster is also showing signs of sloughing
The undata appears as if its coming back
I'm at a loss here. Really starting to get discouraged. I can't find an answer what's causing this.
8/20 - Started running filter socks changed out twice per day. Had an accident with the return pump - dropped salinity to 34 PPT (1.026).
8/24 - Noticed the "Emmett's Blue Polyp Purple Tort was losing it's flesh. Took the tweezers and superglue to as many of the snail tubes as I could see and get too.
8/25 - Alk 9.2, Ca 430, Mg 1360
8/26 - The tort just got worse and worse. Stopped all 2 part dosing (was at 125 ml of 2 part)
8/29 - Down to 9 hours of total photoperiod with a ramp up of 2 hours (instead of 4) and a ramp down of 2 hours (instead of 4)
8/30 - Switched salts from IO Reef Crystals to normal red sea sea salt (for lower alk). Performed a 50 gallon water change with 36 PPT (1.028) water. Salinity in the tank back to 35.5 PPT or 1.027
8/31 - testing: 6.4 Alk, 430 PPM Ca, 1280 Mg. Started the dosers back up. Instead of dosing Alk at Night and Ca in the day, I re-programed the apex to dose Alk on every hour, Ca 15 minutes into the hour, and Mg 30 minutes into the hour. It takes 10 minutes for the dose to disperse throughout the sump (I can see the delay on my pH probe). Dosing 100 Ml of Alk and Ca. Dosing 25 ml of Mg.
9/2 Testing: 6.7 Alk, 460 PPM Ca, 1320 Mg.
I still see snail tubes and mucus nets in my tank. I also see several aiptasia that really annoy me. Nothing close to corals yet though.
Emmett's Blue Polyp Purple Tort is pretty much gone. There's a bit still left
The red dragon's damage is getting worse
The ultimate purple monster is also showing signs of sloughing
The undata appears as if its coming back
rogergolf66
im an addict lol
I think u will see improvement now that alk is down cause u run ultra low nutrients . I know we have had this talk.
I am running at 7.3 alk with great results .
Good luck
I am running at 7.3 alk with great results .
Good luck
Ted_C
Active member
That last pic of the undata... I never noticed this before - but those "things" on the frag plug sure look like spirals don't they? To the naked eye - these look like dots - not spirals. I always thought these were little specks of Calcium Carbonate precipitate. There must be at least 100 of these in this little close up shot (figure that area in the picture is 2 square inches).
Ever since I started adding SPS - Ive had troubles controlling the alkalinity. Calcium was always fine (for the most part) but that alkalinity has just continued to plummet. I was dosing upwards of 175 ml of two part in 165 gallons of total system volume and still had troubles getting alk above 7 a few months ago.
In a week without dosing and including a 30% water change with water that should have been between 7.5 and 8 dkh - i went from 9 dkh down to 6 dkh (from 3.3 to 2.3 meq/l). That vexes me. I am sorely vexed.
So maybe my consumption of carbonate and the drop in alkalinity is related to this plague of vermetid. They have to use something to build those tubes and we know its not poo. For as much as I am adding in two part - if it were all going to the corals, I'd have a pretty impressive reef by now. Instead its being used by these vermin. I would estimate I should have ten pounds of extra coral from all of the calcium and carbonate I've added to the system.
The damage I'm seeing now is most likely stress to the coral due to: switching salts (for a third time in two months), a drop in available nutrients, the changing of the photoperiod to try and encourage increased growth, changes to alkalinity.
Ever since I started adding SPS - Ive had troubles controlling the alkalinity. Calcium was always fine (for the most part) but that alkalinity has just continued to plummet. I was dosing upwards of 175 ml of two part in 165 gallons of total system volume and still had troubles getting alk above 7 a few months ago.
In a week without dosing and including a 30% water change with water that should have been between 7.5 and 8 dkh - i went from 9 dkh down to 6 dkh (from 3.3 to 2.3 meq/l). That vexes me. I am sorely vexed.
So maybe my consumption of carbonate and the drop in alkalinity is related to this plague of vermetid. They have to use something to build those tubes and we know its not poo. For as much as I am adding in two part - if it were all going to the corals, I'd have a pretty impressive reef by now. Instead its being used by these vermin. I would estimate I should have ten pounds of extra coral from all of the calcium and carbonate I've added to the system.
The damage I'm seeing now is most likely stress to the coral due to: switching salts (for a third time in two months), a drop in available nutrients, the changing of the photoperiod to try and encourage increased growth, changes to alkalinity.
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