10 months in - thinking about starting over

[Egkid]

By the way look up rtn (rapid tissue necrosis) and stn(slow tissue necrosis) this is most likely what your corals are suffering from (stn), unfortunately there's not to much known about what causes it, but will atleast give you an answer as to what looks to be going on.

I hope you don't feel attacked by the way as most of us have gone through this as well, me personally with bubble algae, flatworms, and aptasia. All of which I take full responsibility since I didn't dip or quarantine.

 

[akitareefer]

I agree with many on the statements already made.

My 2¢:
The place where you buy fish/corals from is not responsible for anything. As a buyer you are responsible for examining and researching everything. Pests are all over anything that's come from overseas. Unfortunately vendors do their best to eradicate pests but as you know there's no quick and easy fix. If it doesn't look perfect don't buy it. Do dips and keep up husbandry and you shouldn't run into major issues. Trusting a vendor for all of your information is like putting all your trust in a car salesman, they are full of knowledge but don't let them make decisions for you.

I personally started less than 2 years ago and boy have I waisted a ton of money and killed some beautiful things. I blame myself for all my failures and my lack of knowledge. I have been reading about 2 hours a day since I started just to keep up with everything.

Don't be discouraged! Firstly check your parameters especially alkalinity. I don't think the vermitids are fully to blame. Snap them off and super glue their holes for now. Your pests don't appear to be out of control, no need to start fresh. Pick yourself up, read and dive back in.

 

[leveldrummer]

ok Postal then tell me what can cause this rapid loss of tissue in ten days? I'm seriously at a loss to explain it.

Alk spikes, Temp swings. Topping off with too cold of water too fast. there are tons of things that can cause this. most people dont have issues with vermitid snails, an easy test would be to take a butter knife, break the tube off, and see if the corals effected recover quickly.

 

[ichthyman]

You mention FAOIS and Ocean Lifers but I bet John and Terry would be the first people to tell you to QT ALL livestock if you don't want to risk disease or bad hitchhikers making to your display tank.

BOOM This... is my boomstick!

Not sure where that came from but I couldn't agree more.



Ted, I answered your PM on FB.


...shop smart: shop S-Mart...

 

[Ted_C]

I hope that quote is from the real evil dead series and not the crappy remake.

I must not be communicating effciently... the discussion continues (and no - I dont feel attacked - its just a discussion):
Let me try to clarify something - yes - I did not quarantine the frogspawn. I brought in Vermetid Snails. That's not what I'm getting at though (and wasn't the original intention of this thread - what do I do now that I have vermetid snails?). Did the LFS tell me that - hey - your new - you may want to Dip this / Quarantine this / etc...

I'm not arguing for or against quarantine. Its accepted that you try your best to quarantine everything. Myself, I dont have the space or the resources to set up a second system so I take my chances. I brought in Vermetid snails. I didn't even know what they were until Sunday.

How many of you have bought frags from Emmett? Did he give you the education on Red Bugs and AEFW? He did for me.

When I walk into John Or Terry's shops - because that's where I shop - not because others are less than or not equal - I know I'm in for an intersting conversation and not just John or Terry - their employees are top notch as well - on whatever it is I'm buying or need advice on. If John or terry had red bugs or AEFW (and knew they had it) do you think they would continue to sell their stock or take care of the problem or at least tell you - hey man - we got problems - you may want to do this or that...

It's called honesty. Ethics. If your honest with me and run an ethical shop then that's where I shop. Here's another story: the very first box of reef crystal IO that I bought - guess how much I paid for it? $78. I didn't know any better. Hadn't been to any other shops. Was it the LFS fault? Maybe - but I like to think that he just had a crappy supplier and had to charge that price.

An Immortal Quote From GWB:
"There's an old saying in Tennessee — I know it's in Texas, probably in Tennessee — that says, fool me once, shame on — shame on you. Fool me — you can't get fooled again."

So to summarize and hopefully bring this thread back on track all the advice I got on how to bring the vermetid population down:
Biological Predators:
Emerald Crabs (more miss than hit expereience on the internet)
Acro Crabs (no data on the internet - hard to come by)
Yellow Corris Wrasse (No garantees)
Puffers (No garantees)

Physical methods:
Break tubes + superglue gel (tedious and you'll only get the ones you can see)
Filter Socks (as small as possible) to remove food source
Spot Feed to reduce free floating food sources

breaking down the tank and starting over with new rock would not completely erradicate them. They are probably in the plumbing, in the sump, in the ceramic biocubes and would continue to live, reproduce and colonize.

 

[lnevo]

I think you are on the wrong track. First off pineapple sponges are good for your tank. Aa your tank is less than a year old, guess what...your cycle is still happening. This is part of the tank maturing process. Those vermatid snails should not be an issue. I've never seen them hurting any corals. Some of my corals just encrust alongside them.

I'm surprised no one has asked for your parameters. Ph, Salinity, Temp, Cal, Alk, Mag. What does your ph swing look like. How stable is your temp, how do you maintain cal/alk? Whats your WC schedule?

Instead of focusing on harmless critters, i would focus on your tank and your husbandry and the rest will follow.

 

[aguila88psi]

A yellow coris wrasse did the job for me. Although around the same time I overdosed in patassium due to inaccurate test kit causing a whole lot of inverts to die in my tank, leading to an ammonia/nitrite spike and red blotches to my yellow tang and yellow coris wrasse. Fixed the potasium problem by buying a different test and two 50% water changes within three days. So I don't really know if the wrasse rid the tank of snails or if the potasium overdose did :/

 

[lnevo]

For instance that monti-undata picture...that does not look like damage from snails...it looks like it doesnt like its flow/lighting/or something in your water.

 

[jorda9095]

For instance that monti-undata picture...that does not look like damage from snails...it looks like it doesnt like its flow/lighting/or something in your water.

this is the same thing i thought. what is your water chemistry? it seems like your tank may not have been ready for the at least 40 frags of SPS. Most sps are typically harder to keep and do better in a more mature and stable system. The hobby takes time and your tank may not be to your liking in the beginning or for a few months at a time but eventually everything should fall into place if you aren't cutting corners anywhere.

 

[Ted_C]

I just realized those were not posted in this thread - however - this is a local reef club and I think you may have stumbled on this thread without knowing my previous posts in the reef club

Parameters are all stable
Last week:
Alk 8.4
Ca 420
Mg 1320
P (Hanna ULR) - 13 PPB

This week (after 50 gallon water change yesterday with IO reefcrystals)
Alk: 9.8
Ca: 460
Mg: 1360
P: 14 PPB

Delta between 8/7 and 8/17:
I am working on decreasing my photoperiod from 13 hours to 8 hours. Between 8/7 and 8/17 I decreased from 13 hours to 12 hours. As of 8/18 I am down to 11 hours.

I decreased my white output on the pacific sun triton R2 (cool whites from 85% to 15%, warm whites from 30% to 15%).

 

[Ted_C]

Here's some further reading - beyond a few aquarist observations - its actually a scientific study on vermetids in an SPS environment

Edit - Derp - I guess I can't link to reef builders on here.

who recently quantified the net effect of Vermetid snails on different coral species, and the results aren’t good. Where vermetid snails were found, coral cover was dramatically decreased and more importantly, rugose and more gnarly-shaped corals developed more flattened growth form, leading to more sedimentation, less particle capture and less polyps overall to be able to grow and reproduce on behalf of the coral colony. More specifically, Jeffrey Shima and his colleagues found that in Moorea, “Vermetids reduced skeletal growth of focal corals by up to 81 percent and survival by up to 52 percent.”

 

[MrHarvard]

Ted, First off I am sorry to hear about this! Keeping an SPS tank is tough for even the experienced people in this hobby. based on the pics you posted I'm not 100% sure the snails are causing this. As you know there are so many things that can effect stoney corals and lots of time its hard to figure out exactly what is causing it. I wouldn't give up and start over just yet. From what I have read about them there are a lot of people who have them and still maintain a healthy reef tank. I would start off by getting a sewing needle and sticking it in there holes and move it around to try and kill them. I would then break off as much of the tube as you can and either put epoxy or glue over the hole. I would do a few at a time a few days before your next water change. I would say try and keep your water column as clean as possible but I'm sure you are already doing that. Trust me when I tell you I feel your pain but don't give up.

 

[albano]

Could be a frogspawn. I really dont pretend to know softies.

Not sure if someone already mentioned this, but frogspawn/hammer are not softies... They are LPS ...might make a difference in your 'research'.

There is also the chance that your clowns will kill it, if they are hosted by it.

 

[Ted_C]

I would say try and keep your water column as clean as possible

Actually, I run filterless - so there's all kinds of crap floating around the tank. I'll rectify that with my next trip to the LFS and pick up as many filter socks as I can afford.

The chemistry is good though - low phosphates (0.042 PPM from 14/1000*3 Hanna ULR conversion) and nitrates always read undectected.

 

[aguila88psi]

if your a tbrc member, there may be some filter socks left, $3 each, picked up 10 of them at the December meeting.

 

[Postal]

if your a tbrc member, there may be some filter socks left, $3 each, picked up 10 of them at the December meeting.

The TBRC filter socks are all gone.

 

[CrazyEyes]

Hey Ted what size socks do you need?

 

[lnevo]

What test kit for the nitrates? I would not trust API fwiw. Had two kits show me 0 when in reality was over 80. I suggest a cross check with another if you can.

 

[ichthyman]

For the doubters,

The vermetid gastropod Dendropoma maximum reduces coral growth and survival by Jeffrey S. Shima1, Craig W. Osenberg2, and Adrian C. Stier 2010


The simplified version,

Google "Vermetid snails are bad for stony corals, coral crabs keep em in check"

Read them.

Fact is science knows very little on the biology and interaction within their environment of Vermetids. While they are typically just annoying snot machines in our tanks the possibility exists that these snails are doing exactly what TedC is suggesting.

 

[Ted_C]

I was using saifert for the longest time - switched to Red Sea - both show not detected. I'm all good on socks - bought ten of em last night. CHanging them out 2x per day. Lets hope I dont get another flood from clogged socks!

I could see why people think its something other than vermetid but there are a few things we leave out that makes me draw a strong correlation between vermetid and this damage:

No other SPS in my tank are experiencing the same issue (then or now).
I witnessed the mucas net rubbing the undata.

Let's take the flip side of that observation too: If I have a vermetid infestation - why aren't my other SPS affected?

I think they are indeed affected, just in a different way. The retracted polyps on the SPS (Millipora, Red Planet) may be a sign that they are annoyed by the nets. The continue to live though. Also, while they are still alive, they are not growing at the rate they should.

The Shima study that John linked backs up these observations. however, Shima said no Montipora were lost due to interactions with vermetid - and my montipora is the one that showed the most damage. I would explain that as: there are thousands of different montipora in the hobby and in the wild. Shima didn't study Undata - he studied some other Montipora (assumption). Biologically, if the Undata has been raised in environments lacking vermetid - it has developed no mechinisms to cope with vermetid mucus nets therefore it is more suspectible than a rainbow monti or a hercules monti or a montipora digitata.

In fact - the montipora digitata I have is one of my fastest growers and still has great polyp extension

March

August