120g stock help.

I wont get into an argument over it but no they wont be back.
chance is the key word here not intentional or actively. some will accept bloodworms and brine but its only some and you still got to get the them to the fish.

Bottom line is unless you have a large population of sustainable pods you are not likely to successfully keep one.

Um, ok? Not to be argumentative, but I've never once heard that and it's a pretty bold claim to say ORA just pulled a couple of their fish off the market. They're still listed on the website, unlike all the discontinued ORA frags. If you could provide a source, I would be really interested to see it because that'd be pretty big news with their reputation. This is how rumors get spread around.

I agree, you shouldn't buy a mandarin with lax care - but if you're willing to care for it and find one eating properly, I see no reason why not. Other than the feeding difficulty, mandarins are very hardy fish: they very rarely get disease, etc. because they have such a thick slime coating.


I understand. Can they hybridize? Can I keep a spotted mandy male with a red mandarin female? Or, red mandy male with green mandy female?
I'd be very interested to see a hybrid pair, but I haven't yet. The closest is here on MOFIB, but there was no spawning or anything. I don't remember who, but someone had a pair of scooter blennies, a pair of spotted mandarins, and a pair of blue mandarins that spawned often and there was never any cross-species pairing.
 
I understand. Can they hybridize? Can I keep a spotted mandy male with a red mandarin female? Or, red mandy male with green mandy female?

then you will have dead mandarins from starvation. I know none of this is what you want to hear and not sure why you are still seeking approval from anyone to justify it. So just get one and find out, be sure to post a couple pics in a month.
 
Jane the mandarin project was a failure do a search and tell me how many people had luck with them. ORA knows this, its not a claim its a fact, its not a rumor, its a fact. You also havent heard anything about more being released into the market other then from some guy on RC. I would wager if ORA had any plans on releasing more you would see it on their site much like we did before. LFS would had preorders, they dont., nor do any have any real desire to get any for the simple fact they are not any easier to care for then wild ones but have twice the price tag.
 
For the record, I think all tangs deserve the largest possible quarters, but that isn't always possible. That being said:
If it isn't possible to provide proper care for a fish, then you should not bother buying it. At the Moment I only have space for a half dozen nano tanks, but you won't see me going out and buying a tomini for my 29g and justifying it through large posts about how much I trust the judgement of my LFS. I decide for myself what what is a proper tank size, and I personally believe that 4' is too small. Thus, I posted about my concerns.

First and foremost, I would suggest relooking over LiveAquaria's tank size suggestions. A good majority of them are on the high side and they are known for being likely the best fish supplier bar none for good reason. They don't just go willy-nilly on their tank sizes, care guides, etc. Are they always 100% accurate? No, but that's the responsibility of the buyer to research. But looking around at some places that have no interest in selling fish: aquaticcommunity, among others, suggests only 60g. That's not what I would think, but they still have no interest in selling the fish.

Though LA provides decent tank sizes for some fish, that doesn't mean they should be used as a source of research. Rather a stepping stone. Just because many places suggest small tanks, doesn't mean I think they are acceptable. Bigger is better in most cases, and large, active fish like tangs need the most space they can get

Regarding health, take a look here. This is just one experience with tangs in cramped quarters, but I've read quite a few others and even seen others (we get in lots of "rescues") that are similar.

120g is small for a yellow tang? Even cruel? Try this on for size. Even some tank of the months have YTs in smaller quarters. I realize it isn't the best argument to say "worse things have happened," but that's just what it is. Countless people have come into our store wanting to buy tangs for biocubes - that's not ok in my book, but I'm sure many of them just move onto the next store to buy their Tang. At least it's a better habitat than that.

There are worse tanks for it to be in. But a small tank is a small tank

Let's play Devil's advocate for a minute. First and foremost, we need to consider way more factors than footprint or tank size, most importantly: tankmates, temperature, aquascape, amount of rock, and flow.

Temp. is irrelevant as we assume these fish are kept in tropical temps. Aquascape and amount of rocks will not make a 4' tank bigger. I think a 4' tank is too small on its own. You'd have to have a large amount of flow to provide much resistance to these fish. They're designed to handle waves, that are much more powerful than any pump could create

Anthias are a great example of the "flow" requirement for swimming. Tangs are often said to swim for miles per day, which is true, but so do a lot of anthias - the difference being they hover, but must fight the water current to stay in place. They swim for miles per day. Yet many people have no objection to a single male anthias in smaller quarters? Hmm.

Many anthias are far smaller than tangs, and thus don't run out of room as quickly. The ones commonly kept in smaller tanks stay around 3"TL. Groups of anthias need a large area, because believe it or not, females are aggressive towards each other. Personally, I wouldn't keep any species on anthias in a tank smaller than 4'.

Take a look around on underseaproductions and look at some "active" fish that can be kept in "smaller" quarters (~50g) - flasher and fairy wrasse, chromis, or even some dwarf angels. Most of these fish are extremely active in the wild, yet it's ok for them to be kept in smaller quarters? Why?

None of these fish are half as active, nor as large as tangs. Not to mention their lesser height allows them to swim through rock structures. Again, many species I personally wouldn't keep in a tank under 4'

It's also interesting to note that on wetwebmedia, 50g is the (from what I've seen) suggested tank size for Zebrasoma tangs. That seems way, way low to me but it's from Bob Fenner who has a very strong reputation.

Many old references suggest smaller tanks for fish like tangs. I think it may have had something to do with previous ignorance on their parts. If you look at the Bibliography, you will see that none of his sources are newer than 2000, with the majority dating back well before the '90s

Nevermind the fact that we're talkin' a Yellow Tang here: not a super-active Powder Blue Tang, Sohal, or Clown Tang. These guys are highly adaptive as I've said and I rarely see "pacing" behavior with them that is so often reported with other tangs. Do they use up all their swimming space? Sure, but so do most other fish.

Every tang I've seen in a tank smaller than 6' paces. Yellows included

Few things are cut and dry in this hobby: tank size is not among these. Without a picture of the tank, I honestly don't know if this is a suitable habitat for the Tang. I've read estimates 300,000 yellow tangs are exported from Hawaii per year: considering the sheer amount of uneducated hobbyists, I'm willing to bet OP's is one of the luckier ones. After him saying:

I agree, what works in one tank, may not work in the other. But there are things we can do, like ensure our fish have more than enough swim space, to help our tanks along. Maybe if we stopped getting sites that say 55g is plenty for this active fish, we will stop getting so many ignorant newbies. I think the best advice is the most conservative. Let the ones who have experience do the harder things.

"I am not removing anything."

My largest concern was that the OP wanted to add species like mandarins or pipefish to the tank. IMO, these should get their own dedicated system, as clownfish are extremely territorial, tangs can be as well.

I'm surprised this wasn't just left alone, agree or disagree. If you want to continue, you're free to PM me but I don't want to murky up OP's topic anymore, so my apologies there fishmanstan. :wavehand:

My pm box is full and I don't want to empty it :frog:

Each and every one of us are entitled to an opinion, and what works in one tank may not work in another. As I said we can only ensure that we optimize our tanks potential. How many people have kept a yellow tang in a small tank for a decade? How about two?
 
Let's not use that word.

Tang threads go nowhere. Oh, and some of the advice on Wetwebmedia is attrocious.
 
Jane the mandarin project was a failure do a search and tell me how many people had luck with them. ORA knows this, its not a claim its a fact, its not a rumor, its a fact. You also havent heard anything about more being released into the market other then from some guy on RC. I would wager if ORA had any plans on releasing more you would see it on their site much like we did before. LFS would had preorders, they dont., nor do any have any real desire to get any for the simple fact they are not any easier to care for then wild ones but have twice the price tag.

I beg to differ: I am one of the head workers at an LFS and we have pretty good success with ORA Mandarins! They do need special care to feed, i.e. little to no flow when food hits the floor, non-aggressive tankmates but otherwise do better than the wild counterparts. If captive-bred fish are available, I highly encourage their purchase because it supports captive-breeding efforts in general and prevents one less fish from being taken from the ocean. :)

I'm genuinely interested (I mean that non-sarcastically!) to hear where you got this information, mostly because I highly doubt this would have been posted by the other person just for giggles but also because, after speaking with Laura for a few hours on the phone, I can say that ORA is very proud of their Mandarins and put in a great deal of care with raising them. I doubt they would just stop breeding efforts with the huge investment of broodstock, rearing, etc. they've put in.

The amount of ignorance in this thread is pretty depressing.
I'd give this a read first (from Coral magazine) just for some food for thought...we can certainly agree to disagree - and that's always fine! :)

Let's not use that word.

Tang threads go nowhere. Oh, and some of the advice on Wetwebmedia is attrocious.
So is some of the advice on ReefCentral though? :confused: They're still a pretty reputable source, but I certainly don't agree with them all the time. I'll stop talking about Tangs now, but I do find Tang threads to be quite informative when the tone doesn't turn aggressive.
 
Regardless of the view of some, this thread has some very good discussion. That is the point of a discussion forum. You can't post a description of your livestock, ask a stocking question, and expect the responders to only focus on one isolated part of the stock list. A tank is a community. Any decision must be made in the context of the tank as a whole, not as individual parts. As such, one must expect the responses to take that into consideration.
 
I'm not sure of your point. Bad advice one place lessens the impact of bad advice somewhere else?

My point being that this whole thread and pretty much forum is about offering advice - in my personal opinion, some of the advice not being the best. That's why it's important to use as many sources as you can to get a consensus rather than just reading one and coming to a conclusion on care. Wetwebmedia *does* offer bad advice now and then (again, this hobby is based on opinion though, so it might be going far to say it's atrocious) - but as a whole, Bob Fenner has a really great reputation and certainly has the "resume" to back it up. I disagree with him regarding Tang tank sizes as I said, but he is a professional so his input is important and should be at the very least considered when making a stocking suggestion.
 
Who's bob fenner?

I'm pretty sure he owns wetwebmedia, or it least is the biggest writer for it. You can read about him on the site here. Basically, you email them questions and they answer them. The website documents all the emails, etc. they've gotten. :)
 
I disagree with most of what you say. Let's leave it at that.

And that's fine - I never said anyone had to agree with me and do encourage people to read as many sources as they can. :) However, part of having a good discussion is bringing up points and having them properly dismissed. I don't want to start an argument, but I do think bringing up different view points, playing devil's advocate per say, makes for informative, interesting topic...
 
Jane again I ask you to do a search on the success of the ora mandarins and tell me again how proud they must be. it was an utter failure to say the least. most people that bought them never got them to eat prepared foods. I am not going to dis on ORA here but you talked to a sales person, enough said.
My LFS orders from ORA and I am very good friends with the owner and I can say beyond a doubt there are no current plans on bringing these back.
 
And again when you are talking tank sizes for fish there is much more to consider then water volume foot print is equally if not more important. would you put a fish in a tank recommended for 100gal into a 100 gal cube? I mean its 100 gals right?
 
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