2 Mature Clowns in a Biocube 14g??

[Toddrtrex]

In addition, it takes "energy" (( for lack of a better term )) for an anemone to produce eggs/sperm. There is a good chance that if the anemone is in poor conditions that it won't have the extra energy to produce said eggs/sperm.

 

[MarineBioHSU]

Davocean: Feeding or overfeeding, it does not matter. Unlike humans, anemones will not eat themselves to death, or to the point of stress.

Toodrtrex: Again, you are using a negative argument, simply confusing concepts and stating that I am wrong, I have provided scientific evidence to counter your claims, you sir, have not.

 

[MelloW33]

MellowW33: The problem with cloning is that all the specimens would be genetically identical, there is no recombination of genes. So even if one individual became ten thousand through mitotic division, they would ALL be succeptible to the same problems.

For example, say population A and B live in close proximity to each other. A new pathogen is introduced that both populations have no immunity to. Population A reproduces through cloning where-as population B instead starts reproducing through sexual means, aka the release of gametes. Well, population A, while increasing their population are still going to get wiped out by the virus as they have not changed their genotype to deal with the new pathogen. Population B on the otherhand while eing severly depleated will likely continue on as a small percentage of the offspring produced from gametic mixing will *hopefully* have inherited a gene that will help them fight of the disease, therefore being the most fit. Of course there are other factors to consider, as there can be a very low rate of mitotic mutation, but not nearly at the same rate as is achieved from gene recombination. Make sense?

I've understood what you've been saying all along. I don't think anyone has said anything about stress is the only way that nems would clone. Of course they could clone when they are in optimal conditions.

I believe you said on the first page that they only reproduce when in satisfying conditions. So you would be implying that when I put my e. quadracolor in the 5g bucket with no light, that was the right conditions for it to thrive and therefore thought it was safe enough to spread as a colony?

 

[Toddrtrex]

Davocean: Feeding or overfeeding, it does not matter. Unlike humans, anemones will not eat themselves to death, or to the point of stress.

Toodrtrex: Again, you are using a negative argument, simply confusing concepts and stating that I am wrong, I have provided scientific evidence to counter your claims, you sir, have not.

Where, I ask you, is your scientific evidence? You have not provided it at all, no links to any published papers, just what you have typed. So, sir, you have not. I have yet to see any of your scientific evidence.

 

[MarineBioHSU]

Here ya go, let me know if I need to keep going:

Asexual vs. sexual reproduction

"Organisms that reproduce through asexual reproduction tend to grow in number exponentially. However, because they rely on mutation for variations in their DNA, all members of the species have similar vulnerabilities. Organisms that reproduce sexually yield a smaller number of offspring, but the large amount of variation in their genes makes them less susceptible to disease.

Many organisms can reproduce sexually as well as asexually. Aphids, slime molds, sea anemones, some species of starfish (by fragmentation), and many plants are examples. When environmental factors are favorable, asexual reproduction is employed to exploit suitable conditions for survival such as an abundant food supply, adequate shelter, favorable climate, disease, optimum pH or a proper mix of other lifestyle requirements. Populations of these organisms increase exponentially via asexual reproductive strategies to take full advantage of the rich supply resources.

When food sources have been depleted, the climate becomes hostile, or individual survival is jeopardized by some other adverse change in living conditions, these organisms switch to sexual forms of reproduction. Sexual reproduction ensures a mixing of the gene pool of the species. The variations found in offspring of sexual reproduction allow some individuals to be better suited for survival and provide a mechanism for selective adaptation to occur. In addition, sexual reproduction usually results in the formation of a life stage that is able to endure the conditions that threaten the offspring of an asexual parent. Thus, seeds, spores, eggs, pupae, cysts or other "over-wintering" stages of sexual reproduction ensure the survival during unfavorable times and the organism can "wait out" adverse situations until a swing back to suitability occurs."

Tobler, M. & Schlupp,I. (2005) Parasites in sexual and asexual mollies (Poecilia, Poeciliidae, Teleostei): a case for the Red Queen? Biol. Lett. 1 (2): 166-168.
Zimmer, Carl. Parasite Rex: Inside the Bizarre World of Nature's Most Dangerous Creatures, New York: Touchstone, 2001.
"Allogamy, cross-fertilization, cross-pollination, hybridization" (2.1 ed.). 2002.
"Allogamy" (27 ed.). 2004.

 

[MelloW33]

Davocean: Feeding or overfeeding, it does not matter. Unlike humans, anemones will not eat themselves to death, or to the point of stress.

Toodrtrex: Again, you are using a negative argument, simply confusing concepts and stating that I am wrong, I have provided scientific evidence to counter your claims, you sir, have not.

I know I wasn't addressed in this comment but I am just trying to gain more knowledge on these amazing creatures. You keep saying that you have provided scientific evidence but I see no direct references. Todd has simply stated his experiences and opinions and has said nothing is a fact.

 

[MarineBioHSU]

MelloW33: Did you not read the evidence I provided?

 

[deangelr]

haha this is great.. I was wondering when you were gonna bring up mitotic mutation..

 

[davocean]

Davocean: Feeding or overfeeding, it does not matter. Unlike humans, anemones will not eat themselves to death, or to the point of stress.
.

Of course it matters, if you were to take 2 clones of the same nem, place in the exact same tank, and feed one of those clones at least 3x a week, you will see that clone split, and the other, as long as conditions are healthy, will not clone or split, but rather will grow and thrive.
I have seen this countless times, and anyone w/ a fair amount of actual hands on experience will agree.

 

[deangelr]

is that from a general biology textbook?

 

[MelloW33]

I just read through it. I was typing at the moment you posted so it was not on my screen. CHILL OUT. I appreciate your information. We are all here to learn.

 

[kingfisherflesh]

I am the farthest thing from a marine biologist (an accountant) but I can see the advantage of spreading young in bad conditions. Wouldn't having multiple specimens increase the odds that one in the species would survive?

Maybe if we were talking about predations, but we are talking about stress. If it comes to the point where you are reproducing because you dont think that you will survive in an area, why should your offspring immediately next to you?

lol, thanks. I'm no biology major but I am pretty good with statistics and know that two nems would have a better chance of having one survive than one.

So your house is burning down. There really isnt a way for you to move, your foot is attached to wherever you are standing. You have a chance to drop as many offspring as you want that touch you. Are any of them going to survive the fire? No.

Some of you might now say: "The anemone will just move to another location." In the wild if water quality is that bad that they would "split" they arent going to be able to move far enough to get away from it. The ocean is pretty huge, and it takes a lot to tamper with its stability.

For years now I've seen people ask about cutting nems, and we commonly advise against it, and offer a better safer solution which is simply stress them by over feeding.
Many do this, works like a charm.
Splits also are very common upon a transfer to a new tank, new params, a shift that stresses the animal into splitting.
If you've read here for a while you will have observed this first hand, many many times...w/ pics

Okay good, but you still have no control. There is no proof that it wasnt caused by some other factor.

I will take your advice on this, and if I want to split, I will overfeed as you have recommended. This new argument doesnt stem from the fact that we are saying that you dont know how to make an anemone split, it stems from the fact that asexual reproduction as a general biology rule is not usually seen under "stressful" conditions. How many times have you seen your zoa's running wild when your water parameters take a sudden dive for the worst?

Mello gets it.

This is kinda like me saying: "Airplanes fly because their wheels go really fast on the ground, and then they just coast to wherever they are going."

Then someone agrees with me, and I say "They get it."

I cant see the jet engine actually doing anything. It is just a lump on the wing. You dont know enough about the inner workings of this process to say: "This is why it happens." especially when your assumption goes against conventional biology.

In addition, it takes "energy" (( for lack of a better term )) for an anemone to produce eggs/sperm. There is a good chance that if the anemone is in poor conditions that it won't have the extra energy to produce said eggs/sperm.

And it isnt stressful in and of itself to split? How many times have you seen things fragged that just died off.

 

[Toddrtrex]

From your unlinked post,

Thus, seeds, spores, eggs, pupae, cysts or other "over-wintering" stages of sexual reproduction ensure the survival during unfavorable times and the organism can "wait out" adverse situations until a swing back to suitability occurs."

So, if I am reading that correctly, both you and the author are claiming that fertilized anemone eggs now have the ability to "wait out" the adverse situations, similar to seeds in the desert?

 

[MarineBioHSU]

Of course it matters, if you were to take 2 clones of the same nem, place in the exact same tank, and feed one of those clones at least 3x a week, you will see that clone split, and the other, as long as conditions are healthy, will not clone or split, but rather will grow and thrive.
I have seen this countless times, and anyone w/ a fair amount of actual hands on experience will agree.

You are still clearly missing the point, I am not talking about variation in responses to feeding rates. I am talking about your fallacious assumption that anemones will of their own accord over eat. No biological proof what-so-ever.

 

[MarineBioHSU]

I just read through it. I was typing at the moment you posted so it was not on my screen. CHILL OUT. I appreciate your information. We are all here to learn.

Sorry about that, I am trying to get all the references asked for posted before I have to be at a masters thesis defense, didn't mean to come off as being rude, but I see how it came off that way.

 

[MelloW33]

So your house is burning down. There really isnt a way for you to move, your foot is attached to wherever you are standing. You have a chance to drop as many offspring as you want that touch you. Are any of them going to survive the fire? No.

You just compared anemone reproduction to me and my offspring dying in a house fire?

 

[kingfisherflesh]

Sorry about that, I am trying to get all the references asked for posted before I have to be at a masters thesis defense, didn't mean to come off as being rude, but I see how it came off that way.

Good luck, my boss is doing his this week.

"Cant wait" till I am in the same shoes. The way Wisconsin is treating our scientists I am going to need to switch states before I do any sort of career advancement like that.

I think that I am going to bow out of this with: I am sorry if I have come across in the wrong way.

I think that what works for a hobbyist as a means to split a cnidarian is what works for them.

I also believe what I have learned as part of my higher education, and my occupation of keeping these animals alive in a research/educational capacity at an institute of higher education.

+1 to we are all here to learn, and I think that both sides can exchange information and leave being smarter...well maybe not all of us

 

[MelloW33]

Sorry about that, I am trying to get all the references asked for posted before I have to be at a masters thesis defense, didn't mean to come off as being rude, but I see how it came off that way.

It did come off as a little rude but no worries mate, we're all friends here. I just wanted to see some scientific data on the subject.

 

[mr.iacuessa]

im not sure about where i read it but there is a species of bta that is colonizing, i believe it to be the one thats has alot of brown coloration...those are known to split profusely, not due to stress, but to colonize an area... just my 2 cents

 

[Toddrtrex]

You just compared anemone reproduction to me and my offspring dying in a house fire?

That is a bit odd to me too. Not sure I understand the metaphor (( or is it a simile, always had issues with those )).