200g in-wall project officially started

[boxer85]

benny ~ assuming you can avoid warping, i feel the current design will be sufficient. you have done plenty of research, and have plenty of support under the stand. each leg will help to carry the load. and actually, the centrally located legs will be carrying more load than the edge legs. if you want a better description as why, pm me and i can wax on about tributary areas, live loads and dead loads until you're sick of hearing it...

 

[Sloeber]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6291232#post6291232 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by boxer85
ok, i typed a long response, but it got lost in cyperspace.

#4 is COMPLETELY WRONG. are you a structural engineer? how can an accountant make that statement?

no, i am actually a beer salesman, but i did stay at a holiday inn express last night. years ago when i suffered with episodes of soberity i actually built homes in chicago for a summer or 3. so no i am not an engineer, but i also have a very good idea of how to support a static load.

 

[Sloeber]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6290902#post6290902 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Benny Z it's just frustrating to use a resource on the site to begin building the first part of the project (the stand) and then come to find out that the diy article started me down the wrong path.

perhaps a good opportunity to remind ourselves of the number one rule of reef aquariums - RESEARCH. i am hoping you did not find the first design you can find and run with it. i understand your excitement of wanting the new tank rolling, believe me i do, but don't be in a rush. i will have 2 years of research into my 300g tank before water is even in the aquarium plus roughly 20 years experience.

i would still like to hear henry's opinion on the level of risk i'd be taking by using the stand as currently designed. i will be adding a 3/4" ply top to the stand and then two pieces of 1/2" styrofoam insulation on top of that before the tank.

with the foam insulation you are buying insurance. it'll probably work, especially with an acrylic aquarium. regardless, i will be building my 4th aquarium stand in januaury. it will be built using 2x4's with double 2x10's headers front and back on non-pressure treated wood. i do not like 4x4's at all because i feel they warp, twist, and bend considerably. plus 4x4's are overkill. take a look at the AGA pine stand for a 180g. it is made of 1x5's that are stapled together.

 

[Sloeber]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6291242#post6291242 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by boxer85
and actually, the centrally located legs will be carrying more load than the edge legs.

since you are studying architecture i assume you are correct in your above statement.

and therein lies the problem with load supporting aquariums... uneven load distribution = cracked glass and broken seams.

 

[tschopp]

Benny: Great thread, I just started reading it.

I have a few comments,

I would use 3/4 inch plywood for the top and paint it with an aquaculture epoxy if you expect it to get wet (expect it to get wet at some point).

The pressure treated woods scares me a bit for a few reasons. The first is the warping and distortion of the wood. If you have 8 legs no matter how perfect it is initially built it will warp and cause pressure points in the stand.

The second concern I have is over the arsanic that is used in the pressure treating. It is very toxic to fish, and this would prevent you from putting a sump, refuge, or other stuff you might later want under the stand.

You can build a stand with more than 4 legs, my stand has 9 legs. I used a beam system under the legs to prevent imperfect construction or warping from creating pressure points. At the top you use beams to transfer the weight of the aquarium to the legs. You can do the same at the bottom to more evenly transfer the load from the legs to the floor. It also locks the legs togeather so they can't move.

For the beams under the tank I used 3 beams made of 2x6 with a max 4 foot span. If you go with 4 legs I would think you would want 2 beams of 2x8 to cover the 7 foot span, or you could use 2x6 if you have 6 legs. Maybe even a 4x4 would be OK with 6 legs. A 4x4 is not as strong as a 2x6 (the 6" section must be vertical). Also be sure to use plenty of blocking, The wood that goes from the front of the tank to the back to hold the 2x6 in a vertical position so it does not twist.

How thick is the acrylic on the top? is it the same as the walls, or is it thinner? My uninformed guess would be that a 3" perimiter with the 2 3" centerbraces would be OK. This is what I have for bracing on the top, but mine is made out of 3/4 plywood. You should ask a few people around here that make tanks out of acrylic, they would have an answer that would be more trustworthy than mine. I would recomend that you cut it with a router and not a jigsaw. You will want a nice round corner in your holes. If you make the corner a sharp angle it will add stress and be vunerable to failure at that point.

I do like the overflow that runs the length of the tank. The bigest problem I have seen with a few small drains is that some parts of the surface of the water might not be near a drain and tend to build up a film. This is much easier to prevent with a huge overflow across the back.

I did see one use for the bulkhead at the bottom that I would not recommend. A store in upstate NY used a bulkhead in the bottom for the water return in their display tank. No fittings or anything on it , just let it create a fountain through the sand (did look cool). I ask them if they were concerned about a power outage. They said no they have a checkvalve in line. I pointed out that sometimes check valves don't seal like for example when they get a bit of sand in them. They were not concerned. I left and a few months later there was a big blackout on the east coast. I returned the next year and was a bit surprized to still see the fountain in the sand on a freshly decorated dispaly tank. I again ask if they thought there might be any problems with that type of water return. They said, yeah that might not be the best idea.

 

[AnnArborBuck]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6290168#post6290168 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by hcs3


partially. the water in the tank is displaced through the entire bottom, hence the bottom of the tank needs to be fully supported. however, the weight from the tank is supported by the stand on the 4 corners.

and possibly dangerous. it may seem like extra support, but it also increases the chance for error. make one of the 4 center posts 1/16" off and you will have a pressure point on the acrylic pane and 200g of water on your floor eventually. consider the pressure treated lumber will warp and shrink while it is drying, i'd say you do not have much of an option. JMHO.

Your statement about all the weight being on the four corners is wrong assuming they do indeed use more then 4 legs. The weight will be distributed onto the legs based upon the center of mass and where the legs are in relationship to that point. It is a simple statics problem, if you don't understand how this works then maybe you shouldn't give bad advise.

And if you have one of the four corners off you are placing stress on that joint too. This is why many will use a thin layer of styrofoam to absorb and deformities in the stand. This is also why it is important to LEVEL the tank regardless of how many legs you use.

The pressure treated wood will move if it is allowed to dry unassembled. It will also have issues if it sits on a concrete floor that changes how one face of the board will dry as well. I would be willing to bet though that almost any piece of normal wood is also going to move some, that is what wood does. This is why people wrap their work in plywood, because plywood is built to resist this movement.

 

[sir_thunderbird]

Wow ... im reading this and things seem to be getting tense .....I do recall adressing the issues of the wood twisting and assembling them quickly . I have been in the construction industry for over 25 years and have seen treated material do the strangest things , Thats why when i get treated lumber for projects i hand pick the dryest pieces i can find . More often these pieces have had a longer time to let the moisture to evaporate . And truth be know the majority of pressure treated material since 2004 is either Alkaline Copper Quaternary (ACQ) or Acid Copper Chromate (ACC) both which are more enviromently safer then the original arsenic based products . Now mind you i have no knowlege into the facts that if water were to run down a peice of lumber and trickle into your water system what the consiquenses would be . Im more than sure if the material you are using is left to dry thouroughly that a sealer/paint/primer could be applied to remedy this problem . There are stains and paint specially designed for treated materials . Well enough of my babbling on and on .....Gesh Benny .. and this is just the stand part ~LOL~ Just think how far you have to go yet eh .... keep us updated buddy .....

 

[Sloeber]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6293715#post6293715 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by AnnArborBuck
Your statement about all the weight being on the four corners is wrong assuming they do indeed use more then 4 legs. The weight will be distributed onto the legs based upon the center of mass and where the legs are in relationship to that point. It is a simple statics problem, if you don't understand how this works then maybe you shouldn't give bad advise.

annarbor,

either you read what i wrote incorrectly, or you are on the 50 yard line while the rest of us are playing baseball. if you don't understand what someone is saying, maybe you should not try and correct them

BTW, go irish!

 

[Benny Z]

wow! go away for a few hours and come back to an enormous amount of info and debate. nobody ever said debate was a bad thing. i think it's healthy.

first things first... i'll try to answer everything i've been asked and comment on what's been said, but please forgive me if i miss something.

about the treated lumber warping... ugh. i really wish i would've known this before we cut the pieces. i haven't had a chance to get any further with building it, so the pieces you see in the original posts' picture are still lying on the basement floor. i can't say that they are visibly warping, but i'm sure they probably are. i'll flip them over so they at least will have the side they've been sitting on exposed. we won't be assembling the stand until monday night now. assuming we can get the stand level, do you think that if i get some weight on it while it finishes drying that it will be ok? ...and i would still like to see some opinions of the level of risk i would be assuming by continuing on with this stand on a scale of 1-10. if i substitute new untreated 2x6 top rails, but keep the already cut 4x4 legs, will this mitigate some of the risk? if so, how much?

i like the idea of cross braces, so i will probably add those. i will use the suggested 3/4" top ply along with 1" of styrofoam. i will also add cross braces. thank you for that suggestion.

as for the acrylic thickness, the top piece is 1/2" thick. i believe it is the same thickness as all the other pieces. i have marked three new 20" x 14" openings, all 5" from the sides and center braces. i do believe this will be more than sufficient, but i will be posting pictures here shortly to get your opinion before i cut. also, thank you for suggesting i use a router instead of a jigsaw!

i appreciate the constructive nature of everything that's being posted, whether it is masked by asshat (henry!) sarcasm (henry!) and brut truthfulness (henry!) or not (henry!). :mixed:

relax, i'm just playin with ya. i know your intentions are good. in all seriousness, though, being that you are associated with rc so closely, i would request that you ask the powers that be to consider re-reviewing the stand building article so that others don't make my same mistakes. perhaps they could request the author to note that pressure treated wood should not be used, or they could relink the hyperlink to a page with a correct stand-building how-to article.

 

[Sloeber]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6295644#post6295644 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Benny Z
assuming we can get the stand level, do you think that if i get some weight on it while it finishes drying that it will be ok?

it will take a huge amount of weight. not something a 100lbs would do. plus if you use screws instead of nails that will add to the twisting and warping.

...and i would still like to see some opinions of the level of risk i would be assuming by continuing on with this stand on a scale of 1-10. if i substitute new untreated 2x6 top rails, but keep the already cut 4x4 legs, will this mitigate some of the risk? if so, how much?

if you do as steve (tschopp) instructs and use the 2x6's as a header or beam which runs the full length supported by the legs you will be OK. be sure to use the foam.

in all seriousness, though, being that you are associated with rc so closely, i would request that you ask the powers that be to consider re-reviewing the stand building article so that others don't make my same mistakes.

FWIW those links are not reviewed for accuracy. not once even when the link first goes up. in fact you will notice that the link takes you away from RC. we simply have nothing to do with the information presented there.

 

[Benny Z]

if you do as steve (tschopp) instructs and use the 2x6's as a header or beam which runs the full length supported by the legs you will be OK. be sure to use the foam.

the two long beams in the picture in my initial post are the beams that i was planning to use the full length. they are notched to be supported by the legs. so are you saying that, coupled with center bracing, this is sufficient? or am i misreading?

FWIW those links are not reviewed for accuracy. not once even when the link first goes up. in fact you will notice that the link takes you away from RC. we simply have nothing to do with the information presented there.

yeah, dude, i totally understand that it directs you away from rc. ...but the fact is, i linked to it from rc because i trusted that the info i found in or even linked from rc would be accurate. ...and i'm sure i'm not the first person. and i won't be the last person if someone doesn't care enough to make it right. no information is better than misinformation, imho. this is the last time i'll say anything about it. i just wanted to at least make the request.

 

[Sloeber]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6295722#post6295722 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Benny Z
the two long beams in the picture in my initial post are the beams that i was planning to use the full length. they are notched to be supported by the legs. so are you saying that, coupled with center bracing, this is sufficient? or am i misreading?

no, i would not be using th 4x4 treated lumber as the beams. they will warp and twist. get yourself a four 2x6x8' boards and run them on edge nailed back to back for both the front and back of the tank. ever seen a window get framed into a wall? that support beam will not warp, twist or bow and can be supported underneath it anywhere you want (though given the amount of weight we are talking about you techinically will not need to if the corners are done properly). if you frame the top and bottom, level it with only the 4 corners in place, you can then come back and add as many center supoorts as your heart desires.

i still do not like the use of 4x4 legs, though. i still voice my opinion to use untreated 2x4's.

 

[AnnArborBuck]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6295581#post6295581 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by hcs3
annarbor,

either you read what i wrote incorrectly, or you are on the 50 yard line while the rest of us are playing baseball. if you don't understand what someone is saying, maybe you should not try and correct them

BTW, go irish!

What would you call this statement that you made.

4) 8 legs? the weight will be supported in the 4 corners. if you have to support the center of the stand, you did something wrong

Maybe you play horeshoes where close is good enough.

 

[boxer85]

okay, hcs3, i think you're correct w/ the wood. but, i think you're off base on the support issue. and i think annarbor is playing the same game.
I've attached a pdf "plan" or top view of a stand that someone just built and posted for a 600 gallon tank

its located on page 9 of this thread :
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=6297255#post6297255

i gave the stand an imaginary size, say 4'x8' and did a very quick tributary area diagram, showing how much of the area each column will support. as you can see, the corner columns are supporting the LEAST amount of weight, while the centrally located columns are supporting quite a bit more weight. (9 times more in the "worst" case). there are 5 beams that run from the top to the bottom, and they are a bit thicker line than the tributary area outlines....

 

[andycook]

Perhaps stand building could be worked into the clubs DIY lessons.

 

[Benny Z]

here are pictures of the cut lines i plan to use to expand the top openings:

http://www.nicbink.com/tank/leftside.jpg
http://www.nicbink.com/tank/rightside.jpg
http://www.nicbink.com/tank/center.jpg

the "leftside" picture shows how close the opening is to the holes around the perimeter. please let me know your input.

also, these are pictures of the current bulkheads at the top of the tank. are these too close to the top of the tank to use as drains for the overflow? will i need to drill lower ones or will these suffice?

http://www.nicbink.com/tank/tube1.jpg
http://www.nicbink.com/tank/tube2.jpg

thanks!

 

[rick rottet]

JMO (since you said discussion is good)

I think the cut lines look fine. I wouldn't be scared of the amount of material you are leaving around the perimeter, nor for the cross braces. The holes wouldn't worry me either, they look to be far enough away from any edges. (I am not easily worried). I would follow tschopps suggestion to round the corners of the cut outs instead of cutting a 90 degree angle corner. What he said makes sense to me.

The bulkheads look like they will work too, but I must say that last pic shows it pretty darn close to the top. As long as the return pump doesn't exceed the bulkhead's capacity, and the top of the overflow wall is higher than the top of the bulkhead, it will work. The top of the wall only needs to be a fraction of an inch higher than the bulkhead and it looks like you have that much room. (but can be as high as you have room for and still be inside the tank)

I do think there is some "apples and oranges" (or football and baseball) in the discussion about the stand. The way I'm reading it, Henry is (correctly) saying that IF the long sides of stand were built with 2" X 6" (or 2" X 8", or 2" X 10") material, the center of those long sides wouldn't need to be supported...and hence, the weight would be carried by the four legs at the corners, because they would be the only legs. Boxer and Ann are saying (also correctly) that the way you are constructing it, the center of the stand will have the greatest mass (weight) on it, and hence the center legs will carry the most weight.

Personally, I think the stand you plan to build will work...BECAUSE OF the center supporting legs. No I'm not an engineer (nor did I stay in a Holiday Inn Express last night) ;P ....I just can't imagine that a 4" X 4" with four supports evenly spaced across a 6' span wouldn't support a 200 gallon tank. I would say you are on the right path by following tschopps suggestion to use blocking/bracing on the legs to keep them steady. (I really respect and value his opinion). Your plan to use the foam is good too. That should accommodate any twisting the wood will do and avoid any shifting pressure on the tank. I don't think anything short of your house falling into a sink hole is going to upset that tank/stand. The way those cuts looked, it's pretty obvious that you and/or your father have some good attention to detail and some knowledge of construction.

STANDARD DISCLAIMER IMPLIED

 

[Benny Z]

awesome! thanks rick!

over the years i've learned that posting project plans online, no matter what the nature of the project is, will always - ALWAYS - yield differing opinions on about every aspect of the project. everyone always has a better way of doing things.

to comment on the last part of your post, i am pretty particular when it comes to details, but i am hardly a craftsman. (maybe by the end of this project ) my dad's father (my grandfather) was a carpenter by trade.

oh - do you think a pair of your tall skimmers would be overkill for this system? they would be in a 100g stock tank/sump.

 

[tschopp]

I would use the untreated 2x6 for the top beam and I think the rest can be treated if you want. My preference would be for untreated, but I would not loose sleep over it.

The 5" perimiter looks good on the acrylic, I did not realize you had holes in the top. I think that 1/2" sounds very strong and I would not worry.

The center legs will hold more weight, but I don't see how this is relevant. The center legs on my stand hold much more than the outside legs, that is why I am only using 3 steel columns under the tank and they are under the center legs, the floor joist have to carry the weight from the other legs.

I think the bulkheads for the drain will work, depending on how much flow you want. I would make the overflow box deep enough that you can put a 90 ell pointing down inside the box. The limiting factor I see with the hole that close to the top is that it will suck alot of air and this will limit what it can drain. If you put the ell in pointing down it will be able to self start a siphon and pull alot more water before it starts sucking air. You could then put some type of quite drain sytem on the outside of the tank so it does not make anoying sucking sounds.

Steve

 

[rick rottet]

My experience is much the same when posting plans and projects. I do agree with you that hearing all of the ideas and discussions is a good thing, the more creative juices that are flowing, the better. (the near flaming is fun to watch too!)

I don't think those skimmers would be overkill at all. I have four on a 425g LR vat and two on each 210g prop tank. You might give some thought to using one of that style and making the second one a different type (venturi, beckett, recirculating, ???). Maybe they will each pull out different kinds/quality of gunk depending on flow rates, contact times, bubble size, etc.

PS- tschopp builds some awesome skimmers