220 Inwall - Plan

[bheron]

Hey Marc, thats one of the ideas I've been thinking about (wasnt able to make it sound so simple and clear) but the problem is that I havent been able to find pieces of 3" PVC. I have to check again at HD. I like the trick RDMPE did with a plastic trash can, I think.

I'll be at HD today. I have 3 return lines, but only two of them produce any sort of microbubbles (one is from the fuge).

Thanks!

 

[bheron]

Hey Marc, added to my above comment: should the return lines be "above" the water line or submersed? I'm thinking above, but Im also thinking it will be much louder?


Oh, also, Im thinking of turning down the flow of my return pump. Im sure that will decrease the bubbles a bit. I have two Tunze Stream 6080's in the display so I dont really need max flow from my Mag18 return pump.

 

[conda]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6727337#post6727337 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by bheron Good thing Melev checks into this thread!

Isn't he a life saver!

You should see my sump--I have the Melev Model F special.

One drain is plumbed into the bubble tower and the other in front of the skimmer. The bubble tower looks like a protein skimmer, that is how hard it flows in there. The bubbles foam over the top of the tower and the smaller ones out the bottom. I placed my skimmer pump right at the tower exit, so it grabs most of the bubbles. But the bubble tower stops about 80% of them, even with such a fast flow.

The other drain drops alot of bubbles in there also, but not as bad as the first drain--for some reason, my one drain likes more flow.

Anyway, I have yet to get any bubbles past the bubble trap, and I have a ton of bubbles. This is running a Mag18 full flow through a Sea Swirl.

So a bubble trap will most likely help solve your problem.

 

[melev]

Bryan, another item you could use if you have the space is a rubbermaid container that holds a loaf of bread. Stand it up on end, drill holes near the base, fill it with LR rubble in the bottom 4 to 6", then insert it in the sump and put your drainlines in it. The plumbing should be submerged 1", and not touch the LR rubble. The tall container will keep the salt creep within it and out of your stand. If you want to get really creative, you could drill holes that match the PVC through the lid of the bread holder to cover the top. I wouldn't seal it as air needs to breathe out.

The plumbing going to the refugium should be exiting at the surface, and I usually use an elbow. It is half-submerged/half above water. The air breathes out and the water pours out quietly. You can point the elbow any direction you like, including against the flow of how the water exits the refugium to create more time for any bubbles to rise and pop.

You can turn down the flow of your return pump. I've done it with a ballvalve for 9 months with the Ampmaster 4700. However, what grated against my nerves was that I was paying for all the flow 24 hours a day and not using it. I'm glad that I'm using a Little Giant now, pulling 141w of power instead of 384w of power. My back up is a Sequence Dart that I've never used, rated at 160w of power. There is no reason to get a huge pump that costs a lot to run it, nor cause so much flow in the system that microbubbles become an issue.

 

[bheron]

Conda -

One drain is plumbed into the bubble tower and the other in front of the skimmer. The bubble tower looks like a protein skimmer, that is how hard it flows in there. The bubbles foam over the top of the tower and the smaller ones out the bottom. I placed my skimmer pump right at the tower exit, so it grabs most of the bubbles. But the bubble tower stops about 80% of them, even with such a fast flow.

The other drain drops alot of bubbles in there also, but not as bad as the first drain--for some reason, my one drain likes more flow.

Anyway, I have yet to get any bubbles past the bubble trap, and I have a ton of bubbles. This is running a Mag18 full flow through a Sea Swirl.

So a bubble trap will most likely help solve your problem.

- Hey, I was wondering about that. My skimmer produces a good deal of the microbubbles as well. First, good idea about placing the skimmer pump at the base of the tower to collect the bubbles. Second, where does your skimmer outlet go? I was thinking of plumbing my skimmer outlet somehow into the bubble tower (but I guess that would then be counter productive to pulling the water from it there). Or do youjust let your skimmer output bubbles go as they want?

This is great since we have the same return pump and similar tanks! Very encouraging!


Marc -

Bryan, another item you could use if you have the space is a rubbermaid container that holds a loaf of bread. Stand it up on end, drill holes near the base, fill it with LR rubble in the bottom 4 to 6", then insert it in the sump and put your drainlines in it. The plumbing should be submerged 1", and not touch the LR rubble. The tall container will keep the salt creep within it and out of your stand. If you want to get really creative, you could drill holes that match the PVC through the lid of the bread holder to cover the top. I wouldn't seal it as air needs to breathe out.

- Cool idea. Well, I actually found a nice piece of 3" PVC...in my garage! Didnt realize it was actually 3".

The plumbing going to the refugium should be exiting at the surface, and I usually use an elbow. It is half-submerged/half above water. The air breathes out and the water pours out quietly. You can point the elbow any direction you like, including against the flow of how the water exits the refugium to create more time for any bubbles to rise and pop.

- Oh, got it.

You can turn down the flow of your return pump. I've done it with a ballvalve for 9 months with the Ampmaster 4700. However, what grated against my nerves was that I was paying for all the flow 24 hours a day and not using it. I'm glad that I'm using a Little Giant now, pulling 141w of power instead of 384w of power. My back up is a Sequence Dart that I've never used, rated at 160w of power. There is no reason to get a huge pump that costs a lot to run it, nor cause so much flow in the system that microbubbles become an issue.

-- this is a really good point. if I can remove all microbubbles with this tower i'll definitely keep it up full power. I already have a ball valve connected to it for water changes that i can use just in case.



So, to summarize what I'm about to try tonight:

- Make bubble tower out of 3" PVC
- Should be tall enough to extend up XX inches from the water line (Im thinking 2-3" to catch the salt creep, but i guess it cant hurt to make it more?)
- Drill small slits/holes in the base of the tower
- Insert LR rubble up to about 1" from the waterline
- Submerge drain lines in the bubble trap, about 1" beneath surface, but not touching LR

Cool. Only question is what I can do with the output from the skimmer?

 

[melev]

Yep, you have it planned out correctly Bryan. It can be a little less LR rubble if you like. The only drawback about the PVC is when you lift it out of your sump, the rubble falls out into the sump.

3" or 4" higher than the water level should work out fine.

I recommend pointing the skimmer's output away from the bubble trap, so the skimmer is a huge obstacle in the way that the bubbles have to travel around. This gives them more travel time and allows them to rise and pop.

 

[conda]

Here are some pics of my setup:

The first pic shows the amount of bubbles coming out of the bubble tower and where I placed the skimmer pump.

The second pic shows my skimmer output is facing the wall away from the bubble trap like Marc says.

My skimmer section of the sump has some serious bubbles in it. They seem to stay in that section and get sucked into the skimmer.

EDIT: You know what, I just checked and I do have a micro-bubble problem. The bubbles you can see stay in the skimmer section, but the real small ones get pushed through the trap. I had to use a flashlight to see them. Seems like I have the same problem.

 

[bheron]

Hey guys, thanks so much for your input. Well, 1 hour later and -- after a disaster with my bulkheads (later) -- I finished the first release of my new bubble trap!

Problem is, I dont think its working :eek2:

Its in place and it looks like its not stopping ANY bubbles. They flow out the top, as expected, but it looks like the force is so strong (Luuuuuuuke) that the bubbles just shoot right out the bottom. Maybe I need two towers, or three - one for each return line?

Here's some pics:

Here's the sump before tonight:

Here's how I measured the height - a few inches above water line:

Then, I had to cut it down b/c I couldnt fit it under the return lines:

Still, its above the water line.

Here's the slits I cut in it:

And when I fired it up...

...See the bubbles shooting out of the bottom of the PVC?



What did I do wrong?

- are the return lines supposed to be submersed or right above the LR? I know they shouldnt be touching the LR

- to much power?

Help!!???

Also, I'll post pics later, but while trying to fit the PVC underneath the return lines, I jarred loose one of my bulkheads (AS I HAVE BEEN TOTALLY EXPECTING SINCE I INSTALLED THE SUCKERS). about 10 gallons of saltwater spilled all over the place.).

 

[conda]

That is exactly what is happening in mine. The small bubbles are being pushed out the bottom. I just dialed back the return and it still does the same thing.

 

[bheron]

So, even when you dialed it back they still come out the bottom?

Do you have microbubbles in the tank?

Hmmm! Frustrating! Im thinking I need seperate bubble towers for each return (Im using the 3" PVC and its not as wide as you'd think!)

 

[gkarshens]

I have my overflow pipe just submerged about 1/2 an inch. This eliminated all bubbles for me. You have much more water coming in, but it might help a lot.

 

[tgunn]

Bryan,
It looks like you're getting too much flow into that bubble tower and it's pushing the bubbles out. Can you try only putting one of the lines into the bubble tower and see if it works better with less flow in it?

Tyler

 

[bheron]

gkarshens - thanks. I may have to try that.

tyler - yep, thats what im thinkin too. just way too much for one tower. i have enough PVC to cut two more towers....probably not tonight, though.

 

[TheCoralReef731]

I have bubbles coming out of my drain pipe also, but they dissipate before they reach the pump. One idea that i had is to put different sizes of pvc in a massive bubble trap. Here's a diagram.

I'm not sure if this is what you are looking for, but it has to help. You can even put the grooves in the pvc. In addition to more surface area to get the bubbles out, it will spread the flow evenly through the trap.

 

[bheron]

TheCoralReef731 - thats a really neat idea! Just the stuff Im looking for.

 

[bheron]

Ok, well, I couldnt help myself and just went downstairs and whipped up two more of these Melev Bubble Towers! It only took a few mins. Popped them in, filled them with live rock and....

...how many times have I said this in the past week, but.."I think it worked!"

Seriously, this could be it this time. I now have three bubble towers, one for each drain, and it SIGNIFICANTLY reduces the amount of bubbles in the sump. In fact, I cant see any microbubles in the sump after the baffles.

Here's what I did:

Before I turned the pump back on:

The pump on (I put my filter bags on as well b/c I beleive this helps)

Cant see any bubbles out the top!

And below the water line:

Hardly any

Just one of the towers has any sign of bubbles coming out of the bottom

And its not enough, it appears, to make problems

So, Im so excited to come home tomorrow after work and see if there's a noticable difference! Im leaving the Skimmer off for now just to see.

Thanks for your help everyone! Look forward to an update tomorrow!

 

[melev]

Typically, I would make more teeth around the base of each tower, and I'd not use the mesh bags as it is yet one more thing to clean. I don't see any LR rubble, but that isn't optional considering how you have to get the pipe into the PVC and angle it into an upright position.

It definitely made a difference. The first version couldn't work because you had 3 pipes (1" each?) going into the 3" pipe with only four slots cut in it. The slots didn't have the equivalent gap that matched the draining diameter of three drain lines, which is why the bubble tower was bubbling over.

If you wanted to glue a piece of acrylic to the base of each tower, you could prefill it with 2" of LR rubble, then angle it into position without spilling out the rock.

 

[tgunn]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6736847#post6736847 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by melev
Typically, I would make more teeth around the base of each tower, and I'd not use the mesh bags as it is yet one more thing to clean. I don't see any LR rubble, but that isn't optional considering how you have to get the pipe into the PVC and angle it into an upright position.

It definitely made a difference. The first version couldn't work because you had 3 pipes (1" each?) going into the 3" pipe with only four slots cut in it. The slots didn't have the equivalent gap that matched the draining diameter of three drain lines, which is why the bubble tower was bubbling over.

If you wanted to glue a piece of acrylic to the base of each tower, you could prefill it with 2" of LR rubble, then angle it into position without spilling out the rock.

Marc, have you ever had problems with detritus collecting in the live rock rubble? Now to find out where to get live rock rubble. :lol: My live rock is such a precious commodity that I don't have rubble to spare.

I think I'm going to have to try this out on my skimmer outlet; it constantly spews a tonne of microbubbles into my sump (my overflow drains dump next to none in comparison)... Granted, I think part of the problem is that my return pump is cavitating a bit too... Still gotta fix that..

Later,
Tyler

 

[bheron]

Marc - thanks. thats a good idea. I'll make more teeth if you think it will help. I definitely do have LR rubble in each one, just hard to see. Im actually gonna remove some from the one return line (from the sump) and add it to the one with the highest flow. Yea, I know the bags mean more to clean but I always have floating debris that I like to clean out (or is it microbubbles! hard to say). I was thinking of using something underneath to keep the LR in, but most of my rubble was small enough to fit in the tower while the 1" PVC was in there.

Any ideas on how I can incorporate something similar for my skimmer output also?

 

[tgunn]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6737882#post6737882 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by bheron
Marc - thanks. thats a good idea. I'll make more teeth if you think it will help. I definitely do have LR rubble in each one, just hard to see. Im actually gonna remove some from the one return line (from the sump) and add it to the one with the highest flow. Yea, I know the bags mean more to clean but I always have floating debris that I like to clean out (or is it microbubbles! hard to say). I was thinking of using something underneath to keep the LR in, but most of my rubble was small enough to fit in the tower while the 1" PVC was in there.

Any ideas on how I can incorporate something similar for my skimmer output also?

Bryan, I run pantyhose (yeah, try telling the clerk at the drugstore they're for your fishtank, not for yourself and see the look you get :lol: ) on my drains every now and then; I find it pulls out a lot of floating debris that would otherwise just sit in my sump (it's amazing how much crud just sits on the bottom of the sump!)....

How many microbubbles do you get from your skimmer? I never thought mine dumped out much, but after looking at it when the T5s were on in the sump I noticed it really spews 'em out... Yours just shoots straight out the side of the simmer, correct? You could always use a Tee in a piece of the 3" PVC and reduce the side of the Tee to whatever size your skimmer output is; then use the same prinicpal as the bubble tower normally. Would probably work just as well...

Tyler