220 Inwall - Plan
- Thread starter bheron
- Start date
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Yep, it's on this page, but my bandwidth is cut off for the rest of the month. I've been trying to get a Moderator to allow me to change the path of the pics to a source with no bandwidth limitations but cant seem to get a response.
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=572626&perpage=25&pagenumber=2
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=572626&perpage=25&pagenumber=2
bheron
Active member
Update: Great news, had the basement contractor over last night and he's gonna start tomorrow or thurs. Even better news - we totally scoped out all the different ideas for the tank room.
I'm going to finish the stand tonight so that he can begin building around it ASAP. I'll also have updated, exact plans of the whole space.
I'm going to finish the stand tonight so that he can begin building around it ASAP. I'll also have updated, exact plans of the whole space.
bheron
Active member
Question: just remembered, something came up last night when we were discussing ventilation and I need some good feedback here:
He going to cut a hole right through the basement wall and install a fan for ventilation. Cool. Might do 2 - one for in and one for out.
My questions are around general ventilation and water evaporation. As a reference, here's a picture of the area that will be the fishroom.
First, a sketch of the entire basement, with the fishroom blocked out:
And now an actual picture of the area to be finished (in the above picture, the left wall of the "tankroom" is now the wall youre looking at)
(the space has been tidied up a bit)
1) Along with the fan, we talked about the idea of putting in a vent from the tank room to the main room in the basement (area above marked "Finished"). This would give the vent something to draw from. Makes sense. However, I'm worried about letting ANY air from the tank room get to the rest of the house. Thoughts?
2) I originally planned on framing the entire interior of the tank room with green board - walls & ceiling. Now we're thinking of just doing the two walls that face the rest of the house. The other two walls are the cement walls of the basement. He's saying those walls will be fine to absorb any water in the air. (you can see these walls in the 2nd pic above).
3) And, same issue, the one cement wall houses the circuit breaker, the alarm system, the phone/internet, and the home network, system. How do I protect these from the moisture? With a greenboard wall, I figured these would just be little cutouts. If we dont greenboard it, I'll have to build some sort of covering to prevent them from getting damaged from SW in the air.
4) Finally, along the same lines, I was planning on having the ceiling drywalled with greenboard. One thing I'm sure about is the ceiling joists collecting humidty and turning into mold. I'm pretty adamant that its drywalled. He thinks, with the fan running on a timer, we wont have dampness issues.
Any ideas on the above issues?
He going to cut a hole right through the basement wall and install a fan for ventilation. Cool. Might do 2 - one for in and one for out.
My questions are around general ventilation and water evaporation. As a reference, here's a picture of the area that will be the fishroom.
First, a sketch of the entire basement, with the fishroom blocked out:
And now an actual picture of the area to be finished (in the above picture, the left wall of the "tankroom" is now the wall youre looking at)
(the space has been tidied up a bit)
1) Along with the fan, we talked about the idea of putting in a vent from the tank room to the main room in the basement (area above marked "Finished"). This would give the vent something to draw from. Makes sense. However, I'm worried about letting ANY air from the tank room get to the rest of the house. Thoughts?
2) I originally planned on framing the entire interior of the tank room with green board - walls & ceiling. Now we're thinking of just doing the two walls that face the rest of the house. The other two walls are the cement walls of the basement. He's saying those walls will be fine to absorb any water in the air. (you can see these walls in the 2nd pic above).
3) And, same issue, the one cement wall houses the circuit breaker, the alarm system, the phone/internet, and the home network, system. How do I protect these from the moisture? With a greenboard wall, I figured these would just be little cutouts. If we dont greenboard it, I'll have to build some sort of covering to prevent them from getting damaged from SW in the air.
4) Finally, along the same lines, I was planning on having the ceiling drywalled with greenboard. One thing I'm sure about is the ceiling joists collecting humidty and turning into mold. I'm pretty adamant that its drywalled. He thinks, with the fan running on a timer, we wont have dampness issues.
Any ideas on the above issues?
bheron
Active member
Update:
1) Finished the stand last night!!!! I'll post pictures tonight.
2) Contractor showed up this moring and work is beginning on the entire basement. Part of which is my dream room and tank.
Big Issue:
I was so proud to have completed the stand. This is by far my biggest woodworking (or handyman for that matter) accomplishment to date. Sorry, just not as experienced as some on here!!
Anyway, I think I built it so well
0) that its so level I can now notice the unlevelness in my basement floor. Hence, the stand is now not on level ground. It rocks pretty badly on one end. I'd say, of the 8 legs, 4 of them are touching the ground.
So, based on what Ive read here, I'll need to shim this thing somehow?
Never shimmed anything. I'll post pics later tonight on exactly HOW off this thing is.
Any SHIMMERS out there with some direction?
1) Finished the stand last night!!!! I'll post pictures tonight.
2) Contractor showed up this moring and work is beginning on the entire basement. Part of which is my dream room and tank.
Big Issue:
I was so proud to have completed the stand. This is by far my biggest woodworking (or handyman for that matter) accomplishment to date. Sorry, just not as experienced as some on here!!
Anyway, I think I built it so well
0) that its so level I can now notice the unlevelness in my basement floor. Hence, the stand is now not on level ground. It rocks pretty badly on one end. I'd say, of the 8 legs, 4 of them are touching the ground. So, based on what Ive read here, I'll need to shim this thing somehow?
Never shimmed anything. I'll post pics later tonight on exactly HOW off this thing is.
Any SHIMMERS out there with some direction?
At Home Depot, you can pickup a bundle of shims for less than $5. Get two bundles. When the wall is completed around your stand, start shimming the low end by driving the shims underneath the stand (between the stand and floor) only as far as needed, not too far. Try to make sure all of the shims are driven in to the same depth. Dont break them off until the stand is perfectly level.
bheron
Active member
Hey Jarhead, I remember you had the same problem.
Ok, why should I wait until the stand is finished? I want to build the wall "around" the stand, you know? I think you did the same thing.
Also, I've seen the shims at home depot. Sounds easy enough. How do you break them off?
Thanks for the feedback! Yours is looking great too!
Ok, why should I wait until the stand is finished? I want to build the wall "around" the stand, you know? I think you did the same thing.
Also, I've seen the shims at home depot. Sounds easy enough. How do you break them off?
Thanks for the feedback! Yours is looking great too!
bheron
Active member
yep, thats what I meant.
oh - good point. i'm paying the guy and he knows better than me. darn! good point! I'll check with him and see what he can do- he's great with suggesstions like that.
PS - I hope you all dont think I'm wimping out on the whole "experience" by getting a contractor. Well, partially I am. You all are so brave to do it yourself. But also I'm doing it b/c we're building out three rooms in the basement and my wife would never go for the level of quality I could put forth. Please dont hold that against me!
oh - good point. i'm paying the guy and he knows better than me. darn! good point! I'll check with him and see what he can do- he's great with suggesstions like that.
PS - I hope you all dont think I'm wimping out on the whole "experience" by getting a contractor. Well, partially I am. You all are so brave to do it yourself. But also I'm doing it b/c we're building out three rooms in the basement and my wife would never go for the level of quality I could put forth. Please dont hold that against me!
hehe 
No problem! I'm sure it'll turn out much better than me. But honestly, I thought I would never be able to build anything of quality either. I've never done it before. You'd be amazed at what you are capable of, you just have to get over the fear of trying. I personally just loved the satisfaction of building things. I guess I'm still a kid.
I think leveling the stand after the wall is in is a good idea because you can build the wall around it, level the tank, THEN attach the wall to the stand. Thats what I did. Left plenty of room for adjustments after I was climbing around on the stand trying to get the wall up.
Once it was completely level, thats when I went ahead and screwed the wall into the stand. Still had issues with the plywood being warped but a new huge joist retrofit under the tank and the weight of the filled tank fixed that issue.
No problem! I'm sure it'll turn out much better than me. But honestly, I thought I would never be able to build anything of quality either. I've never done it before. You'd be amazed at what you are capable of, you just have to get over the fear of trying. I personally just loved the satisfaction of building things. I guess I'm still a kid.
I think leveling the stand after the wall is in is a good idea because you can build the wall around it, level the tank, THEN attach the wall to the stand. Thats what I did. Left plenty of room for adjustments after I was climbing around on the stand trying to get the wall up.
Once it was completely level, thats when I went ahead and screwed the wall into the stand. Still had issues with the plywood being warped but a new huge joist retrofit under the tank and the weight of the filled tank fixed that issue.
Im Lon 2
Premium Member
That is what I did too. No need putting shims under the stand quiet yet. It will be hit and bumped a ton of time before that wall goes into place.
Building the Walls is the easy part it's the mud and taping I don't like.
I was moving right along with my basement till summer came now I have way to much things going on to have time to finish it. Glad I got the wall in place and drywalled for the tank, or it would be late fall before it got done at this point.
Building the Walls is the easy part it's the mud and taping I don't like.
I was moving right along with my basement till summer came now I have way to much things going on to have time to finish it. Glad I got the wall in place and drywalled for the tank, or it would be late fall before it got done at this point.
weatherson
Premium Member
A few thoughts I have for you...
From your previous questions:
#1. I wouldn't do a fan that draws outside air into the fish room. The potential problem is that someone could inadvertently spray gardening or pest control chemicals which would then be drawn into the tank room. The skimmer, as well as normal gas exchange on the water surface, would inject this into the water. Not good. If you don't want the tank room air escaping to the rest of the house, install a fan on that outside wall but have it blowing outward to the outside. If the door of the room has a small gap at the bottom, air from the house will be pulled through and then sent outside. The problem with this is that the air that is pulled from the rest of the house will need to be replaced and this will most likely come from air gaps or leaks elsewhere in the house in the form of outside air. If your location has extreme temperature issues, a heat exchanger could be incorporated but these are not cheap.
#2 & 4. I'd recommend installing green board on the two walls and the ceiling. Even with a good fan continually evacuating the tank room air out, you will have humidity to contend with. As an example, currently my house has a 53% humidity and my tank room has 74%. This is with two 130 CFM fans moving air out of the room to the attic and a portable AC unit whose hot air exits through a wall of the tank room. So with this setup, air is constantly being pulled from the house, through the tank room and then forced outside. Even so, the tank room has a relatively high humidity level.
While I haven't ever dealt with a cement basement (not many in CA), perhaps a coating of a water sealing paint on the cement walls would be a good idea. Although, I'm not sure if the constant humidity would actually do damage to them or if there's a possibility of the moisture leaching through the concrete and doing damage elsewhere. I think I would create a barrier to better manage any moisture the tank will produce. Here's something to consider... I replace about 10 to 12-gallons of tank water per day from evaporation. A misconception regarding evaporation is that the moisture just disappears, but rather in fact, it simply transfers elsewhere. So I guess my point is... don't minimize your concern for dealing with the huge amount of moisture large tanks create.
#3. I'd definitely recommend isolating all your electrical panels and their inner parts from the air within the room. I currently have a weight machine in my tank room and every unpainted piece of metal on it is severely rusted. Not a good thing for delicate electrical workings as in your case.
As to the stand level issue, my recommendation would be that if you know the exact location of where the tank is to be placed and there is no possibility of this changing, level it now. I'd also recommend leveling it by removing some of the material from the stand where the floor is high as opposed to shimming it. For one thing, the shims available for door frame truing will surely compress and degrade over time and alter your leveling efforts. Better to utilize the wood of the stand and keep it in its original orientation, hopefully designed vertically to the floor in the critical support areas.
You can achieve this by using temporary shims to level the stand in its proper placement and then using a scribe (compass) to make a line at the lower points of the stand. The distance above the floor that this line will be marked on the stand is defined by the largest gap where the shims "suspend" the stand. Then simply trim the wood beyond the scribed line.
Joseph
From your previous questions:
#1. I wouldn't do a fan that draws outside air into the fish room. The potential problem is that someone could inadvertently spray gardening or pest control chemicals which would then be drawn into the tank room. The skimmer, as well as normal gas exchange on the water surface, would inject this into the water. Not good. If you don't want the tank room air escaping to the rest of the house, install a fan on that outside wall but have it blowing outward to the outside. If the door of the room has a small gap at the bottom, air from the house will be pulled through and then sent outside. The problem with this is that the air that is pulled from the rest of the house will need to be replaced and this will most likely come from air gaps or leaks elsewhere in the house in the form of outside air. If your location has extreme temperature issues, a heat exchanger could be incorporated but these are not cheap.
#2 & 4. I'd recommend installing green board on the two walls and the ceiling. Even with a good fan continually evacuating the tank room air out, you will have humidity to contend with. As an example, currently my house has a 53% humidity and my tank room has 74%. This is with two 130 CFM fans moving air out of the room to the attic and a portable AC unit whose hot air exits through a wall of the tank room. So with this setup, air is constantly being pulled from the house, through the tank room and then forced outside. Even so, the tank room has a relatively high humidity level.
While I haven't ever dealt with a cement basement (not many in CA), perhaps a coating of a water sealing paint on the cement walls would be a good idea. Although, I'm not sure if the constant humidity would actually do damage to them or if there's a possibility of the moisture leaching through the concrete and doing damage elsewhere. I think I would create a barrier to better manage any moisture the tank will produce. Here's something to consider... I replace about 10 to 12-gallons of tank water per day from evaporation. A misconception regarding evaporation is that the moisture just disappears, but rather in fact, it simply transfers elsewhere. So I guess my point is... don't minimize your concern for dealing with the huge amount of moisture large tanks create.
#3. I'd definitely recommend isolating all your electrical panels and their inner parts from the air within the room. I currently have a weight machine in my tank room and every unpainted piece of metal on it is severely rusted. Not a good thing for delicate electrical workings as in your case.
As to the stand level issue, my recommendation would be that if you know the exact location of where the tank is to be placed and there is no possibility of this changing, level it now. I'd also recommend leveling it by removing some of the material from the stand where the floor is high as opposed to shimming it. For one thing, the shims available for door frame truing will surely compress and degrade over time and alter your leveling efforts. Better to utilize the wood of the stand and keep it in its original orientation, hopefully designed vertically to the floor in the critical support areas.
You can achieve this by using temporary shims to level the stand in its proper placement and then using a scribe (compass) to make a line at the lower points of the stand. The distance above the floor that this line will be marked on the stand is defined by the largest gap where the shims "suspend" the stand. Then simply trim the wood beyond the scribed line.
Joseph
bheron
Active member
Joseph, thanks for the feedback. Some comments:
"#1. I wouldn't do a fan that draws outside air into the fish room. The potential problem is that someone could inadvertently spray gardening or pest control chemicals which would then be drawn into the tank room."
-Got it. However, people have made comments in the past about getting outside air into your tank room for better skimmer performance and PH consistency. I was hoping to achieve this by drawing air both ways.
"If you don't want the tank room air escaping to the rest of the house, install a fan on that outside wall but have it blowing outward to the outside."
-Already have this in the plan.
-Here's an area that I'm really confused by, and your input helps...
"If the door of the room has a small gap at the bottom, air from the house will be pulled through and then sent outside. The problem with this is that the air that is pulled from the rest of the house will need to be replaced and this will most likely come from air gaps or leaks elsewhere in the house in the form of outside air. If your location has extreme temperature issues, a heat exchanger could be incorporated but these are not cheap."
-Aside from a heat exchanger, what other options are there? Good point. I'll be blowing air out and it needs to be balanced out somehow. There will be a gap underneath the door, however my contractor suggested adding a small vent somewhere in the room to pull air from the main basement section to replace the air blown out.
1) is this not a good idea?
2) is it not a good idea, when the fan is not exhausting, to allow air from the tank room to get to the main basement area that will be finished and furnished?
3) B/c the finished area of the basement will be A/C''d, I was hoping this would draw cool air into the tank room. But then I'm thinking it will really tax my house AC.
So this whole heat/air exhange and humidty idea, which made sense when I first read about it months ago, has only grown more confusing!
"#2 & 4. I'd recommend installing green board on the two walls and the ceiling. "
- Done. In the plan. I remember when selling my last house and buying this new house the joists was the first place the mold inspector checked.
"While I haven't ever dealt with a cement basement (not many in CA), perhaps a coating of a water sealing paint on the cement walls would be a good idea.
- Good idea. That should be easy. I was thinking that any water on the surface of the wall would be absorbed by the cement and passed through to the outer surface of the house and evaporated outside
. But I knew that was reaching a bit.
"#3. I'd definitely recommend isolating all your electrical panels and their inner parts from the air within the room."
- I really want to do this. And am very worried. HAvent thought about it but figured I would build some kind of casing around them all, with access doors. But it would have to be waterproof and simple enough for me to build!
" I currently have a weight machine in my tank room and every unpainted piece of metal on it is severely rusted. "
- Now thats the best excuse for not working out I've heard yet. "Yea, I'd like to get back into shape buuuuutttt, weight machine's rusted. Dont know how it happened."
"As to the stand level issue, my recommendation would be that if you know the exact location of where the tank is to be placed and there is no possibility of this changing, level it now."
- I do know and its sitting there right now.
I'd also recommend leveling it by removing some of the material from the stand where the floor is high as opposed to shimming it. For one thing, the shims available for door frame truing will surely compress and degrade over time and alter your leveling efforts. "
- I have been thinking about the shims degrading over time but it seems like EVERYONE does it so how could it be wrong?! Haha. Ok.
"You can achieve this by using temporary shims to level the stand in its proper placement and then using a scribe (compass) to make a line at the lower points of the stand. The distance above the floor that this line will be marked on the stand is defined by the largest gap where the shims "suspend" the stand. Then simply trim the wood beyond the scribed line."
- This sounds like a much better idea than I have so far, but really sounds way over my head. Before I combust trying to figure it out, let me tell you what my contractor and I talked about this morning before work and see if it still falls into the "shim degrading" issue....
- With the stand already in place, but unlevel, he said he would completely level and balance the thing with shims and then nail it directly into the concrete floor, completely balancing it. One reason for this is b/c it needs to be "inmovable" for when they do the rocking. He is going to drywally the stand itself and build the wall around it.
If I can figure out how to level it your way, I would be up for trying it.
Joseph, thanks so much for your time and feedback in such a helpful and detailed manner.
And, jarhead, yep I surely read his thread. The entire thread - started on page one when it was 119 pages long.
I dont have to tell you what my wife thought I was doing all those hours in front of the computer.
"#1. I wouldn't do a fan that draws outside air into the fish room. The potential problem is that someone could inadvertently spray gardening or pest control chemicals which would then be drawn into the tank room."
-Got it. However, people have made comments in the past about getting outside air into your tank room for better skimmer performance and PH consistency. I was hoping to achieve this by drawing air both ways.
"If you don't want the tank room air escaping to the rest of the house, install a fan on that outside wall but have it blowing outward to the outside."
-Already have this in the plan.
-Here's an area that I'm really confused by, and your input helps...
"If the door of the room has a small gap at the bottom, air from the house will be pulled through and then sent outside. The problem with this is that the air that is pulled from the rest of the house will need to be replaced and this will most likely come from air gaps or leaks elsewhere in the house in the form of outside air. If your location has extreme temperature issues, a heat exchanger could be incorporated but these are not cheap."
-Aside from a heat exchanger, what other options are there? Good point. I'll be blowing air out and it needs to be balanced out somehow. There will be a gap underneath the door, however my contractor suggested adding a small vent somewhere in the room to pull air from the main basement section to replace the air blown out.
1) is this not a good idea?
2) is it not a good idea, when the fan is not exhausting, to allow air from the tank room to get to the main basement area that will be finished and furnished?
3) B/c the finished area of the basement will be A/C''d, I was hoping this would draw cool air into the tank room. But then I'm thinking it will really tax my house AC.
So this whole heat/air exhange and humidty idea, which made sense when I first read about it months ago, has only grown more confusing!
"#2 & 4. I'd recommend installing green board on the two walls and the ceiling. "
- Done. In the plan. I remember when selling my last house and buying this new house the joists was the first place the mold inspector checked.
"While I haven't ever dealt with a cement basement (not many in CA), perhaps a coating of a water sealing paint on the cement walls would be a good idea.
- Good idea. That should be easy. I was thinking that any water on the surface of the wall would be absorbed by the cement and passed through to the outer surface of the house and evaporated outside
. But I knew that was reaching a bit."#3. I'd definitely recommend isolating all your electrical panels and their inner parts from the air within the room."
- I really want to do this. And am very worried. HAvent thought about it but figured I would build some kind of casing around them all, with access doors. But it would have to be waterproof and simple enough for me to build!
" I currently have a weight machine in my tank room and every unpainted piece of metal on it is severely rusted. "
- Now thats the best excuse for not working out I've heard yet. "Yea, I'd like to get back into shape buuuuutttt, weight machine's rusted. Dont know how it happened."
"As to the stand level issue, my recommendation would be that if you know the exact location of where the tank is to be placed and there is no possibility of this changing, level it now."
- I do know and its sitting there right now.
I'd also recommend leveling it by removing some of the material from the stand where the floor is high as opposed to shimming it. For one thing, the shims available for door frame truing will surely compress and degrade over time and alter your leveling efforts. "
- I have been thinking about the shims degrading over time but it seems like EVERYONE does it so how could it be wrong?! Haha. Ok.
"You can achieve this by using temporary shims to level the stand in its proper placement and then using a scribe (compass) to make a line at the lower points of the stand. The distance above the floor that this line will be marked on the stand is defined by the largest gap where the shims "suspend" the stand. Then simply trim the wood beyond the scribed line."
- This sounds like a much better idea than I have so far, but really sounds way over my head. Before I combust trying to figure it out, let me tell you what my contractor and I talked about this morning before work and see if it still falls into the "shim degrading" issue....
- With the stand already in place, but unlevel, he said he would completely level and balance the thing with shims and then nail it directly into the concrete floor, completely balancing it. One reason for this is b/c it needs to be "inmovable" for when they do the rocking. He is going to drywally the stand itself and build the wall around it.
If I can figure out how to level it your way, I would be up for trying it.
Joseph, thanks so much for your time and feedback in such a helpful and detailed manner.
And, jarhead, yep I surely read his thread. The entire thread - started on page one when it was 119 pages long.
I dont have to tell you what my wife thought I was doing all those hours in front of the computer.
Im Lon 2
Premium Member
Here is a question I've got, that I'm trying to figure out what option is best.
How will you prevent the air going into the floor joist ? I'm not putting a ceiling in the fish room but the room next to it will be. That means the air will be able to travel between the Floor Joist in the other room above the ceiling. How do you plan on blocking this off?
My floor joist are not the normal 2"x12" they are the "I" beams style so just cutting a board and putting it up there will not work for me. What would you sugest?
How will you prevent the air going into the floor joist ? I'm not putting a ceiling in the fish room but the room next to it will be. That means the air will be able to travel between the Floor Joist in the other room above the ceiling. How do you plan on blocking this off?
My floor joist are not the normal 2"x12" they are the "I" beams style so just cutting a board and putting it up there will not work for me. What would you sugest?
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