300+ dead

[birddog486]

My first try at raising the fry from my Ocellaris pair didn't make it 2 days:thumbdown

Not sure what the problem was but they laid a HUGE clutch today so I'll give it another try in a week.

I used new/one day old, aerated saltwater in the fry tank matched exactly to the parent tank as far as I could test but maybe that was the problem??

About 10 percent hatched the first night and I noticed several dead that morning. The rest hatched the next night and they didn't make it 24 hrs.

I'm down to about 20 now but I'm afraid they wont be around by morning.

Travis

 

[kbb0118]

Real sorry to hear that Travis. Don't give up. We've all lost a clutch and it is unfortunate, but a good learning experience. Can you give us some details - salinity, ammonia, nitrates, nitrites, temp, how long has your pair been laying clutches? Did you put rotifers and a little greenwater in the fry tank?

 

[birddog486]

Yeah it's frustrating. The tank stats are.
SG: 1.020
Ammonia when I tested it tonight about .5 chloram x added
Nitrite 0
Nitrate 0
Temp at a steady 80

I'm using a 20 gallon tank but only 6-7 gallons of water in it. The morning of the first few to hatch I added a high density of rotifers and .5ml of nanno 3600

I didn't notice any deaths during the day but there was several deceased fry on the bottom when the lights came on first thing in the morning so I vacuumed the bottom.

This morning the water was clear so another .5ml of nanno was added. There were a couple hundred fry swimming and a bunch on the bottom dead again and they were removed.

These fish have been a breeding pair for more than 2 years but I recently bought them and moved them here. This was only the second time they have laid eggs here. I let the first cluch go to term with the parents.

 

[onsan]

couple of tips for you...

* use the water from the tank, don't mix up fresh ASW.
* load up the fry tank with rotifers and keep the water a pale green to keep the rots nutritious.
* be very gentle with the fry during transfer, don't catch them with a net or strainer, use a cup and immerse them in the fry tank to release them.
* very gentle aeration via fine bubbles.
* for the first 48hrs have a black towel (or similar) wrapped around the tank with mild lighting from above. excessive light will cause the fry to continuously swim, nose into the sides of the tank, until they drop dead from exhaustion. the fry should mill about in the centre of the tank chasing food. it they are swimming nose into the sides or bottom they are stressed/disorientated by light.

hope that helps.

 

[birddog486]

couple of tips for you...

* use the water from the tank, don't mix up fresh ASW.
* load up the fry tank with rotifers and keep the water a pale green to keep the rots nutritious.
* be very gentle with the fry during transfer, don't catch them with a net or strainer, use a cup and immerse them in the fry tank to release them.
* very gentle aeration via fine bubbles.
* for the first 48hrs have a black towel (or similar) wrapped around the tank with mild lighting from above. excessive light will cause the fry to continuously swim, nose into the sides of the tank, until they drop dead from exhaustion. the fry should mill about in the centre of the tank chasing food. it they are swimming nose into the sides or bottom they are stressed/disorientated by light.

hope that helps.

Thanks for the tips. I transfered the pot with eggs on it 4 hours before lights out.

This tank has 3 sides covered with black paint and almost no light at the clear end but, I did notice alot of the fry on the side of the tank, which seems strange to be caused by light because there was only a 13 watt flourescent above the tank. I didn't see any at the bottom but alot at the top of the tank along the edge facing out.

The rotifers in the tank have been multiplying like crazy and there must be 50 per ml+

 

[onsan]

make sure the pot stays submersed during transfer.

drop the light levels and cover the fourth side, you should see them move away from the edges of the tank and they'll concentrate more on feeding rather than trying swim to a better place.

i learnt this the hard way, used to use white buckets and always failed, moved to glass tanks and experimented with darkened and clear sides, darkened sides for the first 2 days was a massive improvement. comparing the two tanks side by side under the same light and you could see the difference, clear glass all swimming nose into the side, darkened all swimming around in the middle feeding. didn't believe it at first, but the advice i got was good and proved to be correct in my situation.

 

[kbb0118]

I don't think you had an ammonia problem. Other causes could be bacterial, poor egg quality, too much light like onsan said (swimming on their heads or into the glass), the chloram-x, or hydroids.

The batch I lost was due to too high of a rotifer count, which spiked ammonia. I would not recommend using chloram-x in fry tanks. I read it stunts growth of the fry and they will grow slow, lengthening an already long process. Plus the normal ammonia tests will still say you have ammonia even though it is not harmful for the fish so you kindof loose track of bad ammonia. I use chloram-x sometimes in my roti cultures but water maintenance seems to produce better reproduction. Best to keep with water changes until you can put them on a filtration system IMO.

I have a 3 shelf plumbed system. Top is a growout tank 20 long, middle is three 10 gals for fry, bottom is the sump. New fry get a few inches of water and manual water changes for 2 weeks. After that I use airline tubing to drip from the top tank down to the 10's. I do that for a few months until they can handle a little flow from the return lines and don't get sucked into the overflow. Its so nice when you can lay off the daily water changes!

 

[Farrierfish]

I am considering setting up a tank for breeding but I am wondering.
IF your doing daily water changes and fry can't handle flow well...
how do you add the water? I would think maybe reverse the gravel vacuum process and just let it flow in the bottom or is that even to much flow for them?

 

[birddog486]

thanks for the replys, I'm not sure why but the remaining fry continue to spend most of there time with their head against the glass and not swimming around. I did cover the 4th side with a black garbage bag but it hasn't stopped them. Theres only top lighting from a flourescent thats 10 feet away from the tank and the rotifers are taking over lol..

One thing I'm wondering: The pot that the eggs were transfered on has been in the parent tank for 2 months and, It had some algae and maybe some cyano on it. Do you guys think some of that was dying off with a lack of light in the fry tank causing problems?? I'm using an acurate ammonia alert card and there is definately .5 free ammonia before the water change I did today.

I'm looking forward to giving it another try in 6 days

Travis

 

[kbb0118]

I am considering setting up a tank for breeding but I am wondering.
IF your doing daily water changes and fry can't handle flow well...
how do you add the water? I would think maybe reverse the gravel vacuum process and just let it flow in the bottom or is that even to much flow for them?

I just siphon in with airline tubing (no restriction so it's a steady flow and not a drip). It takes a little while but you don't have to watch it.

 

[john68camaro]

Death within the first 24 hours may be a sign that either the parents are not getting fed good enough or normally when a pair starts spawning again, it takes a few hatches to get really good egg quality.


What I would do is, Ditch the 13W light above the tank. I use light either from the room or the tank next to the fry tank for light. If they are against the glass, then you may want to add more nano. You want it green, so you can not see more then an inch into the tank looking from the sides. I from advice of other breeders have stopped covering the sides of my tanks as I find if I add enough nano/rotifer diet to the water, its not an issue.


Also, the water changes, I would stop using freshly mixed/new salt water for your water change and use either tank water or just dont do any at all until meta. If you do a Fresh water change, the ph of the change water is normally 8.2 or higher. If you test your fry tank, you may be surprised to find it at 7.8. This sudden rise in PH is said to make the ammonia in the water more toxic to the fry. I do not do any water changes until after meta. If I get the feeling one absolutely needs to be done, I add some amquel to the tank and then add my change water.

 

[phil519]

i still think the covering of the sides is necessary. I know at least one person on here say it's bunk - but i think that's because they have a larger breeding system where the tanks are in the basement or an area dedicated to fish. There is no downside to covering the sides.

here me out -

My grow-out tank for my percs is on my desk next to my pc. They had meta'd and were all on bbs. Well somehow I miscalculated my timer on the tank (no cover) and the lights went out. I was working late and had a lamp on next to my pc. When the lights went out - the fish promptly swam right into the side of the glass smashing their face in. Not all of them did - but I had at least a dozen of the 80 plus in my tank die right there - within 10 minutes. It was sickening to me because of all the effort I put into them.

So now I cover everything. I'm still new to this - but I don't see the downside and now I don't have fish bashing their faces in. :sad2:

 

[john68camaro]

There really is no downside to it I can think of either. Just more of a pain to do in my eyes. If it works dont fix it I guess...

 

[eclown]

I tape cardboard around my 10 gallon rearing tank. It DOES make a difference. I think it keeps the fish focused on the true surface...not a reflection.

 

[onsan]

if the fry are spending their time nose into the glass swimming their little tails off, it's a pretty good sign that they don't like the conditions they are in and want to swim away to a better place.

happy fry spend their time milling around looking for food.

i cover the sides of mine and it works, single biggest difference i've ever had. i keep the water pale green, not thick green, to help maintain water quality. i use ambient room light only. i don't do a water change for the first 4 days. my eggs are always a deep orange colour on laying, i feed a greatly varied diet to the adults. this works for me.

 

[Arc Katana]

Something that might help - even though you've only got 6-7 gallons in the 20H - use a smaller tank! Heck even a 5 gallon bucket half filled (with water from the broodstock tank) will work. just get a piece of electrical tape to cover the light from the heater and a simple air stone will be enough to start. The problem might be that your fry have to travel a LONG way to get food. Also, nearly every book mentions the problems with corners - the fry get trapped in them.

Do a 1/2 gallon or so water change (again take water from the brood stock tank) dripped into the bucket each day will work wonders.

Good luck! Its a learning experience. Once you get your set up down, its a lot easier.

 

[landlord]

I throw in my two cents. Here is what I have been doing lately with great success

1. 5.5 gallon tank (half full of water from broodstock tank taken the night before hatching). I bleach the tank sterile prior to anything.
2. Temp 78 - 80 +/-
3. Ammonia 0 - Very important to start out with little or no Ammonia
4. 1/4 inch airline 5 bubbles p/sec - I postion the airline directly under the heater so the bubbles travel up the heater body. I personally do not like the like guys near the heater.
5. In a separate bucket I grow out a TON of rotifers. The more the better, I have used this analogy before but when they are added to the larval tank, the night before hatching, I like the tank to look like a shaken snowglobe. IME it's not the quantity of rotifers that cause an Ammonia build up, it's the Rotifer Diet we feed them. Live nanno produces less but it's tough to get it concentrated. Just my opinion.

Assuming it's the day before hatching.....

I get my water, add my rotifers and add about 15 droplets of rotifer diet to green the water. I do not pull pots but rather collect larvae with a DIY snagger and add them to the tank. I use a pure actinic light (a 55 watt PC bulb fits nicely over three 5.5 gallon tank) turned on 24/7. I do not bother with blackening the sides. The combination of the actinic shining through the greenwater creates a glowing tank which seems to mesmerize the fellas away from the sides. I only add rotifer diet for 3 days and if my concentrations of rotifers are high enough I NEVER have to add anymore of them. Day three I stop with the greenwater put the lights onto a 10 hr ON 14 hr OFF cycle and add copious amount of NHBBS. The BBS will consume whatever greenwater / rotifers remain. Do this BBS regimen until around day 10. I have not had any Ammonia problems going this route and typically have 95% survival.

 

[landlord]

Just a note if your Ammonia is reading .5 at day 2, you have a serious issue there. Your badge should be reading at the toxic level at those ammounts (according to Seachem's website).

Those levels will devastate the fry.

 

[birddog486]

I really appreciate all the advice. I noticed above that I made a mistake on the ammonia,, It was at .05 on the ammonia card NOT .5

The original rotifers that I put in multiplied so fast that it was like a snowglobe for the first couple days but I don't think I put in enough Nanno because I could still easily see through to the bottom of the tank that had about 7" of water.

I'm leaving this next clutch with the parents because I'll be out of town for a couple days but I'm hoping to have better luck with the next hatch.

If I used one of my 10 gallon tanks how old should the fry be before it's safe to move them to another tank if there water is moved along with them?

 

[Tahoe Reefer]

Quote from landlord:
Day three I stop with the greenwater put the lights onto a 10 hr ON 14 hr OFF cycle and add copious amount of NHBBS. The BBS will consume whatever greenwater / rotifers remain. Do this BBS regimen until around day 10. I have not had any Ammonia problems going this route and typically have 95% survival. end quote.

Does this mean your larva/fry are on a 7 day diet of only BBS? I've read that large amounts of BBS can cause problems with the larva and you should only feed at max every other day. Do you have any issues at all with a heavy BBS diet?