4' x 4' x 2' build

[mxett]

Hi all

I've been running a 4 x 1.5 x 2 for a year now and loving it. Especially with the information and help I have received from firstly Reef Central, and also MASA, it really enhances this fascinating hobby in which I have had a passion for 20 years now (mainly freshwater).

Here's the plan:

I plan to run it ssb with rdsb.

Skimmer: Tunze 9010 skimmer

Calcium reactor: Tunze Automat

Phosphate reactor: Phosban

Lighting: 3 250w MH's with lumenarc mini's

Flow: 2 modded tunze 6045's, a 6101 and a 6201.

ATO: gravity fed from large bin outside. (very high tech!)

Pictures shortly. Thanks for looking.

 

[mxett]

New tank: 48" x 48" x 24" with internal overflow in corner.

Sump: 36" x 14" x 18" tank.

RDSB: fine silica sand in a 65litre crate.

Stand: Simple bare bones wooden stand. My father is a cabinet maker. We plan to install decorative removable panels on the outside of the stand soon.

 

[mxett]

Finally after a couple of months of ordering things like new lights, tunze pumps, a tank and stand, and more salt, my big tank arrived!

Damn this thing was heavy. Took 5 of us to carry the thing inside. We had to turn it on its side to get it through the doorway.

I also ordered a simple stand to put the tank on. I requested it to be 1 metre high, for easier viewing, and easy access to the filters etc underneath. My father is a cabinet maker. Together we are going to add some panels to the outside of the stand to make it look 'pretty'. Going on the rest of his furniture it should come up a treat when finished.

Well here are some photos. Enjoy.

My father and I talking cabinet options. My daughter and 2 smaller nieces in the foreground.

The stand is 1 metre high, allowing for easy access underneath, and a really good height to view the tank.

I placed some based rock in the tank straight away. Just getting ideas for aquascaping. I plan to have a fairly open aquascape. I love the look of the space. Inspired by invincible569 which is amazing.

More shortly. This will be a quick build as i have everything waiting ready to go.

 

[HumbleLobster]

Very nice looking. Suspending the MH from the ceiling or building a custom stand for them?

 

[mxett]

Thanks. Suspending from the ceiling on a metal frame, similar to my current 90g

 

[hahnmeister]

I read you plan on putting silica in the RDSB... bad move. Silica is glass, and therefore it doesnt breathe very well at all like aragonite. Also, the glass may seem fine and soft on our skin, but its murder on fish gills, as well as any other organisms that have to live in it. Also, the acids that develop in a DSB/Plenum allow phosphates to bind with the calcium in aragonite: without the aragonite, this wont be possible and you will have a phosphate factory.

So I would suggest two things...
1. make the RBSB from aragonite, perhaps a coarse grain for about 3", and then a screen on that and topped with a finer grain (not sugar arag though, but .5-1.5mm arag) on top for 2-3".
2. make it a plenum. research is showing that in the long term, DSB's act as nutrient sinks, but when they fill up, they can backfire. The reason is that they lack the large open anoxic zone of a plenum. So get out the eggcrate! The two DSB's I ran were both plenums, and the cool thing was that I had a pipe running under the plenum with a valve to drain it. This was cool because once a month or so I could drain off a bit of that foul water from in the plenum, detritus, etc... to keep it from clogging up. I only did maybe a gallon at a time, usually 1/2 that, but Im sure it kept the plenum in much better shape because it prevented buildup.

 

[FishyBiz]

Is that rock staying in the tank?

 

[customclimates]

Is that rock even for a reef?

 

[mxett]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11575261#post11575261 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by hahnmeister
I read you plan on putting silica in the RDSB... bad move. Silica is glass, and therefore it doesnt breathe very well at all like aragonite. Also, the glass may seem fine and soft on our skin, but its murder on fish gills, as well as any other organisms that have to live in it. Also, the acids that develop in a DSB/Plenum allow phosphates to bind with the calcium in aragonite: without the aragonite, this wont be possible and you will have a phosphate factory.

So I would suggest two things...
1. make the RBSB from aragonite, perhaps a coarse grain for about 3", and then a screen on that and topped with a finer grain (not sugar arag though, but .5-1.5mm arag) on top for 2-3".
2. make it a plenum. research is showing that in the long term, DSB's act as nutrient sinks, but when they fill up, they can backfire. The reason is that they lack the large open anoxic zone of a plenum. So get out the eggcrate! The two DSB's I ran were both plenums, and the cool thing was that I had a pipe running under the plenum with a valve to drain it. This was cool because once a month or so I could drain off a bit of that foul water from in the plenum, detritus, etc... to keep it from clogging up. I only did maybe a gallon at a time, usually 1/2 that, but Im sure it kept the plenum in much better shape because it prevented buildup.

Thanks for the advice. However I've seen Dr Ron Shimek recommend fine silica sand for in tank dsb's. Not that I don't believe you but I've used one before with silica and it worked well, and I'm happy to trust Ron.

 

[mxett]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11576599#post11576599 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by customclimates
Is that rock even for a reef?

Well I personally 'collected' these rocks from rock pools areas at a beach I was holidaying at in December. They would have been weathered by the sea in those rock pools for hundreds, thousands or millions of years so I think they have cured pretty well. If mother nature put them there I am sure they will work in my tank.

Besides, they are 'base' rock. I am going to put lots of my current tank live rock all over them. They are only there to add structure.

 

[mcliffy2]

I dont think that rock will hurt, but it does not look porous in the least, so it doesnt seem like it will do a very good job of biological filtration. but that said, its not gonna hurt anything either. The one other suggestion I have is not going with the Tunze 9010, you need waaaaay more skimmer than that. Did I mention you need more skimmer? Kidding aside, I have one on my 125 and it is way undersized. Unless you are doing fish only Id look to other options for your skimmer.

Love the tank otherwise tho, those dimensions are very cool, I'll be interested to see how this one unfolds.

 

[mxett]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11580771#post11580771 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by mcliffy2
I dont think that rock will hurt, but it does not look porous in the least, so it doesnt seem like it will do a very good job of biological filtration. but that said, its not gonna hurt anything either. The one other suggestion I have is not going with the Tunze 9010, you need waaaaay more skimmer than that. Did I mention you need more skimmer? Kidding aside, I have one on my 125 and it is way undersized. Unless you are doing fish only Id look to other options for your skimmer.

Love the tank otherwise tho, those dimensions are very cool, I'll be interested to see how this one unfolds.

Thanks.

I believe the tunze 9010 is rated for around 200 to 250g. Having said that, I also realise that most people over-spec their skimmers. I plan on keeping the tank fairly open, aquascaping wise, so I think it should handle a 200g lightly stocked with no problems. I also plan to be pretty consistent with medium to large water changes so that should help.

If I find I need more skimming power I can always upgrade later on.

I also take your point about the rocks. Yes they are not the most porous option but a lot of base rock sold I have seen is not. As I have said, I will be adding about the same amount again in LR, as well as having a fairly large rdsb, so I'm confident that should handle a medium to light bioload.

The tank is slowly filling with ro water as we speak. Shouldn't be long until its full. I have leak tested the overflow and associated plumbing and all is good. I don't intend to do anything fancy plumbing wise, as all of my flow is from tunzes in the tank, so I'm happy to go fill the tank (almost) without the sump in place yet (as I haven't got it yet)

Here is a picture.

 

[yaktop]

you'll probaby wish later on that you;d change that rock out. very beneficial to use porous rock as mention. check out marcorocks.com they have some great stuff and porous 1,000,000 times more than the stuff you have in there. good luck.

 

[mcliffy2]

That 250g rating is for a FOWLR tank. If you plan on a big fish load and a lot of corals, its more like 125 rated, but I think that is overrated. As I own one, the biggest tank Id suggest it for is a 90g. Putting one of these on your tank would be like putting a 100 hp engine in a ferrari.

These are Tunze's Ratings, so as you can see you reduce that 256g rating by up to 60% with heavier bioload:

COMLINE DOC Skimmer
The Comline DOC Skimmer with hydrofoamer has an open water circuit which can be controlled. Apart from the air output, the flow rate of the skimmer determines the output of the DOC skimmer. In addition, due to its biotope composition, every marine aquarium has a different sensitivity with respect to the organic load. Based on a standard marine aquarium with soft corals, the data on the suitable skimmer size may differ in other biotopes. For this reason, the aquarium volumes remommended for the skimmer should be reduced in case of sensitive biotopes.

Low Sensitivity
In soft coral aquariums with long-polyp corals and anemones, for example, the share in dissolved organic matter may be higher, sometimes it may even be vital. In this type of aquarium, the recommended aquarium volume can be used without deduction.

Medium Sensitivity
A medium organic stability is usually found in mixed aquaiums inhabited with soft and stone corals (LPS). Filter-feeding animals. sponges, et cetera, are found there frequently well. For these aquariums, a reduction of about 20% of the skimming capacity is calculated. A skimmer for 1000 liters (264 gallons) should thus be used for an aquarium about 800 liters (211 gallons) which has this kind of reef design.

High Sensitivity
Aquariums with primarily small-polyp stony corals (SPS) require an especially high degree of purity. They should have no load of phosphates or nitrates worth mentioning. Good oxygen saturation and very clear water are the pre-requisites. Comline DOC skimmer is also ofter used as a "stand-alone" solution in these aquariums. This type of aquarium should be reduced by about 40% in the volume of the skimmer volume mentioned.

High Sensitivity and High Load
Hard coral aquariums with a high population of fish require an extremely high skimming capacity. The skimmer has to ensure the degree of purity for the hard corals are at an above average high fish load. if the Comline DOC skimmer has to operate as a "stand-alone" solution here, a high-performance is required. This type of aquarium should be reduced by up to 60% in volume of the skimmer volume mentioned.

 

[hahnmeister]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11576901#post11576901 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by mxett
Thanks for the advice. However I've seen Dr Ron Shimek recommend fine silica sand for in tank dsb's. Not that I don't believe you but I've used one before with silica and it worked well, and I'm happy to trust Ron.

Id go head to head on that one... I have seen the articles posted, and they tend to overlook the physical properties of silica sand (AKA sandblasting silica) because they are busy figuring out the amount of silicates that diatoms can extract from the sand.

I used to see silica sand used in all sorts of situations, esp freshwater tanks with fish that needed a fine substrate. I used to use it myself for various burrowing/digging fish as well. Because it is not rounded, but usually consists of flat sided 'shards', it can pack denser than arag, and it restricts the sand's ability to 'breath' as well. I have seen silica sand develop large pockets of sulphur dioxide and molds within the first 1/2" because of this. You can mix it then, but this tends to only spread the problem since all you are doing is spreading the bacteria around and putting the sand back in the same situation it was before.

I have also personally had fish die from getting silica in their gills. It hasnt been as documented with reef/saltwater it seems, but most freshwater fish keepers swear to never use the stuff.

My suggestion, being where you are, would just be to get stuff from the beach. Its most likely more pure than silica anyways (loads of alumimum silicates often in silica... read Randy Holmes-Farley's article on Silica sand).

 

[mxett]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11586004#post11586004 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by hahnmeister
Id go head to head on that one... I have seen the articles posted, and they tend to overlook the physical properties of silica sand (AKA sandblasting silica) because they are busy figuring out the amount of silicates that diatoms can extract from the sand.

I used to see silica sand used in all sorts of situations, esp freshwater tanks with fish that needed a fine substrate. I used to use it myself for various burrowing/digging fish as well. Because it is not rounded, but usually consists of flat sided 'shards', it can pack denser than arag, and it restricts the sand's ability to 'breath' as well. I have seen silica sand develop large pockets of sulphur dioxide and molds within the first 1/2" because of this. You can mix it then, but this tends to only spread the problem since all you are doing is spreading the bacteria around and putting the sand back in the same situation it was before.

I have also personally had fish die from getting silica in their gills. It hasnt been as documented with reef/saltwater it seems, but most freshwater fish keepers swear to never use the stuff.

My suggestion, being where you are, would just be to get stuff from the beach. Its most likely more pure than silica anyways (loads of alumimum silicates often in silica... read Randy Holmes-Farley's article on Silica sand).

Given that Ron has used and suggested silica for many years, and he is a well known authority on sand beds and invertebrates, I am happy to go with silica still. Also, it is for a rdsb, not display. I plan to filter the output of the rdsb through my filter sock, so I shouldn't get any silica back into the tank, well barely any.

As far as the rock goes, plenty of lfs's in Australia sell base rock of similar quality with good results. I understand that to use porous rock for the entire build would be ideal, but I have a finite budget, and would rather use my funds for what I consider most important, lighting and flow. 100% porous rock for all the rock used would be great, but a combination of porous and non porous is surely still acceptable, is it not? After all, I love reef keeping, but I'm not going to take out an extra mortgage for it.

 

[OnlyCrimson]

What do you plan on keeping in here? I also think you need to upgrade your skimmer. Honestly, that is a very small skimmer.

 

[ricks]

Is it just me, or does that stand look a little undersized?? I would put some more bracing, maybe some cross bracing between the legs. That's a lot of weight and if it gets moving sideways, could be trouble. I know I would sleep better...

Nice build..

 

[hahnmeister]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11586878#post11586878 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by mxett
Given that Ron has used and suggested silica for many years, and he is a well known authority on sand beds and invertebrates, I am happy to go with silica still. Also, it is for a rdsb, not display. I plan to filter the output of the rdsb through my filter sock, so I shouldn't get any silica back into the tank, well barely any.

As far as the rock goes, plenty of lfs's in Australia sell base rock of similar quality with good results. I understand that to use porous rock for the entire build would be ideal, but I have a finite budget, and would rather use my funds for what I consider most important, lighting and flow. 100% porous rock for all the rock used would be great, but a combination of porous and non porous is surely still acceptable, is it not? After all, I love reef keeping, but I'm not going to take out an extra mortgage for it.

Ill leave it for another thread, as this one should be about your tank, but I wanted to clear up a little....

First of all, I would hardly call Ron the definitive authority on DSB's. There are many others out there, and not all agree with him. Ron is first and foremost a scientist with respect to invertebrate morphology, ecology, and behavior. I just say this so you keep an open mind, not to attack Ron in any way.

Did you read the article by Randy?
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/jan2003/feature.htm

interesting, eh? I realize its for a RDSB ( I have had one too), not display... the silicates dissolve into the water, and there are algaes which can suck it right out of the sand, as well as glass FWIW.

Starfish, sand sifters, snails, etc... silica doesnt dissolve when ingested... and these critters do ingest sand. Instead it sand-blasts their insides until they die. A piece of calcium based sand in a gill, mouth, or digestive tract can dissolve with acids so its not dangerous. It also has rounded edges... silica is literally shards of glass. Perhaps I should take up the issue with Ron himself. Im kinda shocked he would approve of its use.

I asked my GF, since she was born in Sydney and grew up there, and she wonders why you dont find a secluded beach or something and just collect some sand there.

 

[kydsexy]

im gonna have to agree with hahnsmeister on the topic of the sand. it was the first thing to catch my eye on your list haha you're in Aussie, you have an infinite resource to sand and rock. aesthetically, im surprised that you chose that rock, it's much more freshwater like to me. my yellow bullheads perch on it allll day long. as far as finding that rock, how close was it to the hotel? I'm so jealous, i spent my sophomore year summer in college in Australia. You're one lucky man.

haha, after snorkeling down there, i wish i never left. good luck with the tank. as mentioned, keep an open mind

and what is a RDSB? i have a 6" DSB, is it gonna be more than that?!? makes me nervous lol! good luck again