400g system from scratch pictorial
- Thread starter pclausen
- Start date
WILDTHING
New member
Melev made a vacuuming device the other day then some others chimed in with some ideas, here's what he did.. I cut and pasted it here
I tested my water today, and still have wild numbers. It really is discouraging, as I was hoping for things to level out. Phosphates don't seem to be coming down whatsoever, but my refugium is very empty currently. I need to quit sharing macros until that section is dense with plants again.
I made the time to vacuum the sump of detritus. I know this question comes up often enough on RC about how to clean your sump out, since it is level with the floor. What I did was use what I had handy:
1 filter sock
vinyl tubing
1 MaxiJet 600
I created a vacuum cleaner by inserting a piece of 1" vinyl tubing on the intake section of the Maxijet. I ran 3/8" tubing from the output of the maxijet into a big filter sock, and stuck that in the middle of the sump so I wouldn't have to move it.
Working my way across the sump section by section, I sucked up all detritus (and water) and collected all the sediment in the sock. No water is wasted, and the majority of the garbage is removed. The skimmer should remove anything else that is water borne, right?
The only negative was when something clogged up the intake of the MaxiJet. Cutting out some of the protective grid inside of the intake would help, or simply using a larger pump perhaps. Thus, I had to pull apart the intake side a few times to remove any bits of stuff that acted as a blockage.
You can check the next page or 2 of his thread also for further discussionson it, I think p37 or 38
I tested my water today, and still have wild numbers. It really is discouraging, as I was hoping for things to level out. Phosphates don't seem to be coming down whatsoever, but my refugium is very empty currently. I need to quit sharing macros until that section is dense with plants again.
I made the time to vacuum the sump of detritus. I know this question comes up often enough on RC about how to clean your sump out, since it is level with the floor. What I did was use what I had handy:
1 filter sock
vinyl tubing
1 MaxiJet 600
I created a vacuum cleaner by inserting a piece of 1" vinyl tubing on the intake section of the Maxijet. I ran 3/8" tubing from the output of the maxijet into a big filter sock, and stuck that in the middle of the sump so I wouldn't have to move it.
Working my way across the sump section by section, I sucked up all detritus (and water) and collected all the sediment in the sock. No water is wasted, and the majority of the garbage is removed. The skimmer should remove anything else that is water borne, right?
The only negative was when something clogged up the intake of the MaxiJet. Cutting out some of the protective grid inside of the intake would help, or simply using a larger pump perhaps. Thus, I had to pull apart the intake side a few times to remove any bits of stuff that acted as a blockage.
You can check the next page or 2 of his thread also for further discussionson it, I think p37 or 38
WILDTHING
New member
OOPS, forgot the link
http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=553578&perpage=25&pagenumber=37
http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=553578&perpage=25&pagenumber=37
Jamesurq
New member
Nice setup - I'm not sure why this thread became a lesson in aquascaping... What you had at first would have been fine. The CORALS are what determines the shape of the reef - a wall isn't the only determining factor.
So glad to see someone going with a sandbed.... It's really my personal favorite
So glad to see someone going with a sandbed.... It's really my personal favorite
Jamesurq
New member
Nice setup - I'm not sure why this thread became a lesson in aquascaping... What you had at first would have been fine. The CORALS are what determines the shape of the reef - a wall isn't the only determining factor.
So glad to see someone going with a sandbed.... It's really my personal favorite
So glad to see someone going with a sandbed.... It's really my personal favorite
pclausen
New member
Thanks for the vacuuming device link! I spent a lot of time today reading about DSBs and there certainly are pros and cons and it looks like I'll have to swap it out in 3-5 years. That being said, I have a funny feeling that I'll be lucky if I go that long before making major changes anyhow! This time around, I'm real curious to check out all the life in a DSB. The novelty may wear off after a while, but hey, this is my 1st tank.
All the rocks have been swished and placed back in the tank. This time, I opened up the center and made several tunnels through the pile on the right in several directions. I think I'm starting to get something that I like.
First a group of shots with the lights on. You can see the CL inlet in all these shots, but my thinking is that I'll have corals covering it from most viewing angles after a while. Just want to make sure nothing gets too close as that sucker (pun intended) as it is pulling in about 4500 gph.
And a volley with the lights off. Here you can see a couple of tiny tunnels.
Good size tunnel at lower left.
Even larger tunnel in center left.
This shot from above show how there is a lot of open area in the front for clams and such. I really like how the hammerhead magnet matches the wood of the stand.
All the rocks have been swished and placed back in the tank. This time, I opened up the center and made several tunnels through the pile on the right in several directions. I think I'm starting to get something that I like.
First a group of shots with the lights on. You can see the CL inlet in all these shots, but my thinking is that I'll have corals covering it from most viewing angles after a while. Just want to make sure nothing gets too close as that sucker (pun intended) as it is pulling in about 4500 gph.
And a volley with the lights off. Here you can see a couple of tiny tunnels.
Good size tunnel at lower left.
Even larger tunnel in center left.
This shot from above show how there is a lot of open area in the front for clams and such. I really like how the hammerhead magnet matches the wood of the stand.
Dk Coral
New member
You have done it !!!!
This looks great IMO !
And what a HUGE difference, from the rock wall to the above reefstructure. I see manu cons. here :
- Good space on the bottom for clams/corals
- Good space for fish
- Caves ect for different territories(fish)
- High places for light loving corals
- Shaded slopes and caves for low light corals
- Vertical/horizontal placement posib. for the dif. types of corals.
In other words - good work
This looks great IMO !
And what a HUGE difference, from the rock wall to the above reefstructure. I see manu cons. here :
- Good space on the bottom for clams/corals
- Good space for fish
- Caves ect for different territories(fish)
- High places for light loving corals
- Shaded slopes and caves for low light corals
- Vertical/horizontal placement posib. for the dif. types of corals.
In other words - good work
Carl_in_Florida
Active member
That looks really nice :thumbsup:
Carl
Carl
pclausen
New member
Thanks! Yes, this structure is growing on me. I'm almost thinking of not messing with it too much more. I should be getting my sand today hopefully. Beverly, you're right, the right structure still needs a little work to open it up more. I think I can just play with the top portion as I really like the foundations that I have now.
As I stated above, I've been reading a lot about the pros and cons of DSBs and now I'm beginning to think that having less than a full 6" in the display may work out better. Some of the pros would be:
1. Eliminate the need for a PVC rack that would likely end up being somewhat exposed as the critters/fish move the sand around.
2. Allow for more water volume in the tank and not have the lower 6" of glass filled with sand.
3. By regular cleaning, eliminate the need to completely replace after 3-5 years.
4. Allow for sand sifting star fish that are generally not recommended for DSBs.
What if I did a 2-3" sand bed in the display (level with the lower wood trim of the stand) and then went with an 8" bed in the fuge? The bed in the fuge would be able to support a huge population of pods and other beneficial critters I would think since there would be no predators there. My understanding is that such critters would migrate to the display bed constantly through the water column.
If I did that, I would leave the bed in the fuge alone, but I guess I would have to regularly syphon detritus out of the bed in the display?
Or would critters in a shallow bed keep it clean by itself it it is constantly "seeded" from the DSB in the fuge?
And I guess sand sifting stars would help out at well?
In other words, would having a remote DSB cut back on the regular maintenance needs of a shallow sand bed in the display?
Assuming I get the sand today and add it to both the display and fuge at the depth discussed, how long before I would be able to add a cleanup crew? Do I have to wait for the beds to seed or would the live rock provide the cleanup crew with everything they need? It has been suggested that I can add a cleanup crew as soon as I have sand in there (and ammonia and nitrite both read 0).
Will a cleanup crew interfere with seeding the sand beds?
I'm thinking of going with a cleanup crew package from reeftopia.com. Specifically I was looking at their "Total Reef Care Special #3" which includes:
100 Astrae Snails
150 Micro Blueleg Hermits
36 Nassarius Snails
24 Cerith Snails
4 Emerald Crabs
4 Peppermint Shrimp
I was then going to add the following to the above order:
100 Cerith Snails (for a total of 124)
4 Serpent Stars
2 Harlequin Serpent Stars
4 Red Brittle Stars
2 Lettuce Nudibranch
2 Sea Cucumber
Does that sounds about right for a system my size?
As I stated above, I've been reading a lot about the pros and cons of DSBs and now I'm beginning to think that having less than a full 6" in the display may work out better. Some of the pros would be:
1. Eliminate the need for a PVC rack that would likely end up being somewhat exposed as the critters/fish move the sand around.
2. Allow for more water volume in the tank and not have the lower 6" of glass filled with sand.
3. By regular cleaning, eliminate the need to completely replace after 3-5 years.
4. Allow for sand sifting star fish that are generally not recommended for DSBs.
What if I did a 2-3" sand bed in the display (level with the lower wood trim of the stand) and then went with an 8" bed in the fuge? The bed in the fuge would be able to support a huge population of pods and other beneficial critters I would think since there would be no predators there. My understanding is that such critters would migrate to the display bed constantly through the water column.
If I did that, I would leave the bed in the fuge alone, but I guess I would have to regularly syphon detritus out of the bed in the display?
Or would critters in a shallow bed keep it clean by itself it it is constantly "seeded" from the DSB in the fuge?
And I guess sand sifting stars would help out at well?
In other words, would having a remote DSB cut back on the regular maintenance needs of a shallow sand bed in the display?
Assuming I get the sand today and add it to both the display and fuge at the depth discussed, how long before I would be able to add a cleanup crew? Do I have to wait for the beds to seed or would the live rock provide the cleanup crew with everything they need? It has been suggested that I can add a cleanup crew as soon as I have sand in there (and ammonia and nitrite both read 0).
Will a cleanup crew interfere with seeding the sand beds?
I'm thinking of going with a cleanup crew package from reeftopia.com. Specifically I was looking at their "Total Reef Care Special #3" which includes:
100 Astrae Snails
150 Micro Blueleg Hermits
36 Nassarius Snails
24 Cerith Snails
4 Emerald Crabs
4 Peppermint Shrimp
I was then going to add the following to the above order:
100 Cerith Snails (for a total of 124)
4 Serpent Stars
2 Harlequin Serpent Stars
4 Red Brittle Stars
2 Lettuce Nudibranch
2 Sea Cucumber
Does that sounds about right for a system my size?
keefsama2003
In Memoriam
thats what im doing with my 300 i will have 3" of black sand in the display and 7" of seeded sand from my 90g tank in the fuge.
Carl_in_Florida
Active member
My rule of thumb is not to add critters till there is no ammonia. I think a shallow sand bed that is vaccumed is a good alternative to BB.
cArl
cArl
Beverly
New member
I would wait until your rock has cured before adding the sandbed. That way, while your rock continues to cure, you can siphon out any detritus that either falls to the tank floor or is blown off the rock with your turkey baster. The more detritus you get off your rock during curing, the fewer nuisance algae problems you will have over the short and long terms.
I also don't know how to "clean" a sandbed of detritus to make it last longer. In a thread on a local reefing board, someone suggested that replacing sandbeds should be done every year. As I don't have sand anywhere in my systems, I have no idea how accurate that statement is. But I do know that when we upgraded our three reefs last year and removed year old 4" sandbeds from each tank, the sand was disgustingly filthy. Wish I had pics of how dirty they were and smello-vision to let you know how much they reeked.
I would hold off until your rock has cured and your sandbed is in place, if you are still intent on using one, before adding a clean up crew. I notice you've got serpent and brittle stars in one package. Some stars are fish predators, though I don't know which ones they are. Research thoroughly each species before adding to your tank.
I abhor most crabs, and I have read that hermits can be scrappers with each other. This may or may not be true, so ask around about hermits.
Personal experiences with emerald crabs are mixed. They are supposed to eat valonia (bubble algae), but have had them eat any kind of macroalgae (especially ornamental), coralline algae, as well as some of my galaxea :/
Also research the needs of lettuce nudis. If they don't have enough food, they will slowly starve.
I also don't know how to "clean" a sandbed of detritus to make it last longer. In a thread on a local reefing board, someone suggested that replacing sandbeds should be done every year. As I don't have sand anywhere in my systems, I have no idea how accurate that statement is. But I do know that when we upgraded our three reefs last year and removed year old 4" sandbeds from each tank, the sand was disgustingly filthy. Wish I had pics of how dirty they were and smello-vision to let you know how much they reeked.
I would hold off until your rock has cured and your sandbed is in place, if you are still intent on using one, before adding a clean up crew. I notice you've got serpent and brittle stars in one package. Some stars are fish predators, though I don't know which ones they are. Research thoroughly each species before adding to your tank.
I abhor most crabs, and I have read that hermits can be scrappers with each other. This may or may not be true, so ask around about hermits.
Personal experiences with emerald crabs are mixed. They are supposed to eat valonia (bubble algae), but have had them eat any kind of macroalgae (especially ornamental), coralline algae, as well as some of my galaxea :/
Also research the needs of lettuce nudis. If they don't have enough food, they will slowly starve.
scotty1234
New member
pclausen said:Close-up of a small rock. You can also make out some green algae on the far right.
I'm wondering if I should reduce my light cycle (750w MH 12on/12off) or just keep an eye on things and hope it will go away on its own in a couple of day (or weeks)?
Keep an eye on this green algae, it looks like hair algae. You might want to try and take that rock out and scrub it really well since you have things where you can move them. Unless you plan on having a Tang, or some algae grazer like a sea rabbit, this stuff will takeover 'quickly'.
Great job with the live rock.
pclausen
New member
Thanks for the advice. I'll do some additional research on the clean-up critters for sure. I would only add sand to the fuge when I get it until the rock is done throwing off detritus. Then add some to the display. I'd like it in the fuge as soon as possible through so that it can begin being seeded from the curing rock. In the meantime, I'll go ahead and clean off any hair algae that I find. So far it only appears to be on that one piece of rock.
Here is an AquaNotes screen shot of the monitored parameters for the last week. As you can see, I got my temp in check. I'd like to stabilize the pH and raise it a bit. ORP continues to climb and is now past 325. You can see how the temp dropped when I shut things down last night when swishing the rock. That apparently also raised the pH temporarily.
Here is an AquaNotes screen shot of the monitored parameters for the last week. As you can see, I got my temp in check. I'd like to stabilize the pH and raise it a bit. ORP continues to climb and is now past 325. You can see how the temp dropped when I shut things down last night when swishing the rock. That apparently also raised the pH temporarily.
mike89t
Premium Member
If you go the DSB route make sure you research how to properly set one up. Just dumping a bunch of olitic sand in there won't cut it. Here is a great article I'm sure you probably already read but I'll post it just in case:
http://www.rshimek.com/reef/sediment.htm
As the article states you need to seed your DSB with the benificial critters that make it work properly. I'm planing on purchasing the following to seed my 4" DSB:
Live Sand Activator and Reef Worm Diversity kit from:
http://ipsf.com/#anchor47277
Detritivore Starter Kit from:
http://www.inlandaquatics.com/prod/prod_detrit.html
The goal is to have your sand bed critters and cleaning crew do as much of the cleaning work for you as possible.
http://www.rshimek.com/reef/sediment.htm
As the article states you need to seed your DSB with the benificial critters that make it work properly. I'm planing on purchasing the following to seed my 4" DSB:
Live Sand Activator and Reef Worm Diversity kit from:
http://ipsf.com/#anchor47277
Detritivore Starter Kit from:
http://www.inlandaquatics.com/prod/prod_detrit.html
The goal is to have your sand bed critters and cleaning crew do as much of the cleaning work for you as possible.
pclausen
New member
Thanks Mike. Yes, I have read (and re-read) Ron's article a couple of times now. I have been looking at both of the kits you reference above and do indeed plan to get one or both, in addition to a couple of cups of live sand from other tanks. The more diversity the better. My thought is to use most of the seeding kit(s) contents in the 7-8" DSB in the fuge, and use perhaps 1/3 of them in the 2-3" SB in the display. Not sure if it matters a whole lot since I'm hoping the critters will migrate between the beds anyway to some extent.
My diatom algae bloom appears to be reversing already, or at least it hasn't spread to any other rocks since I first noticed it 2 nights ago. Ditto on the green hair algae. I therefore don't feel a rush to get a cleanup crew right now and will instead concentrate on getting my sand beds installed and properly seeded first.
Did the usual turkey basting last night and less stuff is coming out of the rocks now. Btw, I've been leaving all my pumps running while doing this so that all the detritus gets sucked into the overflows and skimmed by the skimmer. I keep basting away until the water column is clear again. This seems easier than shutting everything down and then siphon it up from the bottom of the tank.
After a couple of days of not testing for ammonia, I decided to test again this morning. Low and behold, it barely registered on the kit. It was perhaps 0.1 or 0.2 at the most. Didn't have time to also test nitrites, but I'll do that tonight. Still waiting for HD to get my #^%@$ sand, but hopefully it will be in by the end of the week.
I also got my moonlights going last night. I went w/ 6 470nm LEDs, each mounted into a small plastic box that I cut at an angle given their location in the front of my canopy so that they wouldn't interfere w/ the MH pendants.
The 6 boxes were mounted to a removable oak trim piece that is part of my AGA modern canopy. Here is a shot with the trim piece flipped upside down so that you can see the LED mounting clearly. I have an inline plug that makes it real easy to remove the LED bar and the canopy for maintenance.
And here is another shot with the trim piece in position.
And a very blurry shot of part of the tank. In person, it looks very nice and there is a really neat shimmering effect created by the surface water movement. Looks like shadows dancing back and fourth on the rocks.
My diatom algae bloom appears to be reversing already, or at least it hasn't spread to any other rocks since I first noticed it 2 nights ago. Ditto on the green hair algae. I therefore don't feel a rush to get a cleanup crew right now and will instead concentrate on getting my sand beds installed and properly seeded first.
Did the usual turkey basting last night and less stuff is coming out of the rocks now. Btw, I've been leaving all my pumps running while doing this so that all the detritus gets sucked into the overflows and skimmed by the skimmer. I keep basting away until the water column is clear again. This seems easier than shutting everything down and then siphon it up from the bottom of the tank.
After a couple of days of not testing for ammonia, I decided to test again this morning. Low and behold, it barely registered on the kit. It was perhaps 0.1 or 0.2 at the most. Didn't have time to also test nitrites, but I'll do that tonight. Still waiting for HD to get my #^%@$ sand, but hopefully it will be in by the end of the week.
I also got my moonlights going last night. I went w/ 6 470nm LEDs, each mounted into a small plastic box that I cut at an angle given their location in the front of my canopy so that they wouldn't interfere w/ the MH pendants.
The 6 boxes were mounted to a removable oak trim piece that is part of my AGA modern canopy. Here is a shot with the trim piece flipped upside down so that you can see the LED mounting clearly. I have an inline plug that makes it real easy to remove the LED bar and the canopy for maintenance.
And here is another shot with the trim piece in position.
And a very blurry shot of part of the tank. In person, it looks very nice and there is a really neat shimmering effect created by the surface water movement. Looks like shadows dancing back and fourth on the rocks.
