400g system from scratch pictorial

[pclausen]

More on snails

More on snails

Been reading up on Trochus snails and they seem to be very cool as long as you're sure to get the right kind. Seems that ipsf.com breed the correct kind. They are not cheap @ $24.95 for 6 of them. However, they also include 6 of them in their Reef Tank Tuneup Kit. In addition to the 6 Trochus snails, that kit also includes:

12 Hawaiian Strombus (Dr. Ron believes these are actually Columbellid snails)
12 Nerite snails
12 MicroHermits (I know, I know)
1 Hawaiian Turbo snail

I understand that the Strombus and Nerite are both excellent algae cleaners and like to get the glass too which I don't think the Trochus, Nassarius or Cerith do.

Anyway, since I'm getting a live sand activator kit from them as well, I can likely get free shipping/boxing by going with the tuneup and activator kit at the same time, so as long as those extra snails are useful, I think I might go for it!

Last night I did the basting of the rocks (left them in the tank) and also scrubbed the back wall clean. Water was nice and clear this morning. I really should push some sand towards the rear corners to level things out, but I'm afraid doing so will start the sand storm right back up again. So instead I'm going to carefully try lowering a couple of cups of additional sand into those corners, perhaps after a quick rinse in fresh water.

I read that I'll likely loose 25% of my sandbed each year due the fact that arragonite slowly dissolves above a pH of 8. And that the rocks themselves will also slowly dissolve over time. This was all in Calfo's Reef Invertebrates. He has a very thorough section on live rock and sand. After reading that, I feel I made the right decision in going with fresh wild rock from the Pacific.

 

[Homey the Reefkeeper]

I don't really have a fish list yet, but I'm thinking something like this:

2 Ocellaris Clowns
1 Hippo Tang
1-2 Yellow Tang
1 Purple Tang
1 Powder Blue Tang (maybe, I hear these are ich magnets)
1 Lawnmower Blenny
1 Mandarin (once the DSB has matured)
And some wrasses (haven't researched which ones yet)

pclausen,
You've done an amazing job and your setup is truly inspiring

I don't have a good suggestion for your snail specimens although my 120g consists of mostly Astrea snails and they seem to thrive just fine while keeping my tank very algae free. For the fish stock, you might want to consider a Desjardini Red Sea sailfin tang or a Pacific sailfin tang. I just added one to my tank and theyre beautiful specimens that are extremely friendly and they tend to eat more nuisance algae than most other tangs. I don't have a pic of one at the moment but I'll try to get one up for ya soon.

By the way, I love Charlottesville. I spent four years there for college and there's no other place like it. Go Hoos!


David

 

[mike89t]

Re: Snails

Re: Snails

Ok, so it would seem that the consensus on snails is something like this:

Nassarius - fun to watch (all come out of sand at once when you feed them) but not all that useful otherwise

Nassarius snails are much more than just fun to watch. They will clean up any leftover food that makes it to the bottem. They also like to burrow in the sand which will help keep the sand naturally stirred without damaging it. I'll admit it's pretty fun to see a herd of them emerge from the sand when they smell food. They always seem to race around the tank in groups.

Been reading up on Trochus snails and they seem to be very cool as long as you're sure to get the right kind. Seems that ipsf.com breed the correct kind. They are not cheap @ $24.95 for 6 of them. However, they also include 6 of them in their Reef Tank Tuneup Kit. In addition to the 6 Trochus snails, that kit also includes:

That's where I'm getting my Trochus snails also.

Anyway, since I'm getting a live sand activator kit from them as well, I can likely get free shipping/boxing by going with the tuneup and activator kit at the same time, so as long as those extra snails are useful, I think I might go for it!

I had one trochus in my 7 gallon nano and it was an algae eating factory. He constantly was grazing and there was a steady stream of crap coming out of it's "smoke stack".

I read that I'll likely loose 25% of my sandbed each year due the fact that arragonite slowly dissolves above a pH of 8

I disagree with that. I don't believe that aragonite sand dissolves that fast. That would mean you would lose an inch of sand in one year. That won't happen. my guess is you need to worry about loosing the infauna living in the sand more than loosing the sand itself.

 

[jbanks]

Great thread pclausen!!!

I think you have narrowed your cleaner list down to a good one however, I would leave out the hermits and maybe add a cucumber or two once the tank is running for a couple of months they are great at cleaning your sandbed without destroying the beneficial life that dwells in it. Hermits tend to ravage through the useful sandbed critters that your sandbed will need to thrive. I started my tank with them and ended up removing them. It was pretty fuunny how I got them out. I used some spirulina tablets. Whenever I would put these tablets in the water the crabs (all of them) would literally jump off the rock like commandos to get to the pellets. Needless to say it was easy to get them out. I miss watching them but I know the system is better of without them. On the other hand, I love my porcelain crab. He's my favorite.

Oh, and I definately second the advice on the Nassarius snails. They are excellent sand stirrers..

I wish you much success with your tank. Welcome to the "Cult" of reefing!!!!!! :lol:

 

[keefsama2003]

man im scared because i can only imagine how much it will cost to add the crew to my 300 its bad enough all the money i have used and stepped around my wife with. dont know how much longer i can keep going

 

[pclausen]

Ok, so the cleanup crew will initially consist of:

12 Trochus ($49.90 from ipsf)
24 Nassarius ($29.00 from Marine Depot)
24 Cerith ($29.00 from Marine Depot)

The order from ipsf will also include the sand activator kit and I was thinking of also getting some spaghetti and bristle worms from them to round out the order (6 of each). I know other places offer much better deals on snails (keyscritters have 100 Cerith for $24 for example!) than Marine Depot, but following Mike's advice, I don't want a bunch up front that will then end up dying from starvation. Plus a lot of those smaller online places have large minimum orders.

If I order the above for delivery early next week (tank will then have been ammonia and nitrite free for 2 weeks), should I also get a couple of fish so that the non-algae eaters will also have something to eat? I was thinking of adding a pair of Ocellaris to the Marine Depot order. I understand I'm better off to add the agressive fish last (i.e. the tangs).

Keefsama, I'm in the same boat as you as far as the wife is concerned! I'm bidding on a 1/3hp drop-in chiller on Ebay right now. I hope to be able to sneak it into the fishroom before she notices it. It will pay for itself in a couple of month since I'm having to run my whole house A/C at 74 degrees 24/7 at the moment to maintain a tank temperature of 81. Besides, if the house A/C went out, I'd be screwed.

I can't quite let the crabs go. So perhaps I'll just get just a couple of hermits/emerald/porcelain guys from the lfs down the road when the DSB is teaming with pods. That should be ok, right? Especially if I also have tons of pods in the fuge. I'd love to see a team (small team of course) of hermits jumping off the cliff all at once for food. lol

 

[mike89t]

Ok, so the cleanup crew will initially consist of:

12 Trochus ($49.90 from ipsf)
24 Nassarius ($29.00 from Marine Depot)
24 Cerith ($29.00 from Marine Depot)

The order from ipsf will also include the sand activator kit and I was thinking of also getting some spaghetti and bristle worms from them to round out the order (6 of each). I know other places offer much better deals on snails (keyscritters have 100 Cerith for $24 for example!) than Marine Depot, but following Mike's advice, I don't want a bunch up front that will then end up dying from starvation. Plus a lot of those smaller online places have large minimum orders.

If you put in to many Nassarius snails you will have to start feeding them which defeats the purpose of having a cleaner crew.
I would start off with about half of the Nassarius snails and replace it with an abalone:

http://www.marinedepotlive.com/1263494.html

abalone are awesome grazers but a little expensive. Plus it think they look cool. The tropical ones only grow to about 3" in length.

 

[pclausen]

David, if you ever come back through cville, feel free to drop me a note. I'll check out the sailfin tangs you mentioned.

 

[keefsama2003]

i had 3 abaone in my tank but heater malfunction made them into an apetizer so once the 300 is done ill get about 4-5 more only problem is once they are in thats it
i had to cut a hole in my acclimating bucket to get them out they are imposible to get off any surface.

 

[Morgandy]

I think a few Nassarius are definately the way to go. I will not do more hermit crabs at all - I was told 200 cleanup critters for our 200 gallon tank. Thank god I didn't do that, I think that is a big misnomer, and some retailers will do that for $$ in their pockets. At most right now I have 10-20 blue legged and red hermit crabs. They pick at corals, coralline, and seem to do little good except eat food that the fish are trying to get to. Curious on other people's takes, because this is what I have found to be best balance for my tanks. Also, the hermits do grow big, do knock stuff over, and after thinking they're so cool when you add them to start the tank cycling, down the line they just seem more pesky. My opinion only!!

Also, don't know what you did yet about the sand..I turn down the pumps and gently push the sand back to level it..Adding by cup or other method has caused more of a storm, unless you turn the pumps way down, and do not take you hand off the entire cup top until you literally have it completely to the bottom so it settles immediately.

 

[pclausen]

That abalone looks cool Mike! 12 Nassarius and an abalone won't be that different price wise, so I'll do that.

I have been in contact with Gerald @ ipsf already and it looks like we have a deal. He can't double up on the Trochus package, but I'll get those strombus/Nerite guys instead and a single Hawaiian turbo. Delivery will be Thurs 6/23.

I forgot to mention that I have already seen several "tracks" in my sand bed along the left and right edges where the sand meets the glass. Also got a few where the sand meets the rock. I'll have to get out the red flashlight tonight. I guess to some extent, fresh uncured rock will help seed the DSB as well.

 

[pclausen]

I agree Amy. I'm thinking no more than 10-20 hermits. And once they get larger, I'll likely move them to the sump and or a 55g that I'm thinking of converting to sw. Thanks for the tip on the sand. One thing I might try it to dump a cup or two in a sandwich bag and only open it once it is right where I want it.

Are Micro Blueleg Hermits just young Blueleg Hermits? I also read on keyscritters that their Mini Bluelegs are not meat eaters like the larger variety but only eat algae and detritus. Just curious if there are more than one variety of Blueleg Hermits or if they are all the same just at different ages.

 

[mike89t]

I forgot to mention that I have already seen several "tracks" in my sand bed along the left and right edges where the sand meets the glass. Also got a few where the sand meets the rock. I'll have to get out the red flashlight tonight. I guess to some extent, fresh uncured rock will help seed the DSB as well.

Probably got a bunch of worms moving from the rocks to the sand. Good News! Check you tank late at night and you might be able to spot them.

 

[mike89t]

I've heard that the best way to add sand without a sand storm is to use the following technique:

Add sand to an empty tank (No water)

Place a couple of plastic garbage bags over the sand

Place glass drinking cups on the corners of the bags to hold it in place.

Place a glass dish on the center of the bags.

When you add water to the tank, slowly pour it over the dish so that it doesn't disturb the sand bed.

When you finish adding the water, carefully remove the dishs and glasses holding the bags down.

The air escaping from the newly installed sand bed should gently lift the bags to the surface where it can be removed.

That should limit your sand storm when you put together your next tank. :rollface:

 

[mike89t]

That abalone looks cool Mike! 12 Nassarius and an abalone won't be that different price wise, so I'll do that.

The only thing is that they mostly only come out at night. However that will give you an excuse to put moon lights in.
:thumbsup:

 

[pclausen]

I'll keep that in mind w/ my next tank Mike (a 55g) Great advice.

The tracks are on the surface of the sand along the edge with the glass. Almost looks like a single tread Mars rover or something. Very uniform looking in other words.

If the worms are migrating to the sand, they sure are going to have a hard time finding anything to eat given this is sterile aragonite. But maybe stuff has already leached into it from the rocks and the IO salt in the water column that they find useful. Fascinating.

I did spent some time with a regular flashlight a few hours after lights out a couple of times, but never saw anything. Maybe I need to wait until real late (say 2 am or so).

 

[mike89t]

The tracks are on the surface of the sand along the edge with the glass. Almost looks like a single tread Mars rover or something. Very uniform looking in other words.

I had a very tiny crab come with the live rock I purchased for my nano. I would only see him early in the morning when I turned on the lights. Then he would disappear into the rock again. He was only a little bigger than a grain of rice.

Make sure you post more pictures! I have to live vicariously through you until I finish putting together my new 150 which has been sitting in my garage for 6 months. :sad1:

 

[Morgandy]

It took a few weeks before the real life came out after we started up our tanks. Now, right after lights off, there are probably millions of pods and critters..it's amazing. Sometimes bad hitchikers we're still finding. We're raging war on one that lives in a huge rock, it is a crab, dark maroon I think, black claws, white tips, and fuzzy white black legs. It's probably 2 inches now. Tonight we're going to remove that rock and get the beast. Also found about an 8 inch bristleworm the other night. We study the tank for about 2 hours after lights out almost nightly, it's just fun. But I am constantly surprised to see how much more always appears..and this is in conjunction with the brute force rock cleansing I already told you about last week.

Question for folks I've been wanting to ask...do all the pods and zillions of critters add to the bioload/waste/ammonia levels, etc..? Seems they would to some degree?

 

[ikn0xl]

ya the brute for sure they have the rest I need to search for, wonder why its only farm equip. retailers that carry the rubbermaid troughs.

 

[pclausen]

I think you answered your own question. Those 50+ gallon troughs are just that. Stock/feeder tanks used to supply animals on a farm with water. Farmers don't go looking for those at HD, they look for them at the same place they pick up their feed and salt blocks for their cows.

On a side note, my folks saw my tank the other day and the first thing they said was, wow, it looks so much shallower when looking at it from the front compared to when you had fw in there. I guess that is true. I mean when you look at it from the side, you see the full 2' depth, but from the front it only looks to be maybe 1' deep. I'm sure that is due to the different refraction property of sw. I though it was pretty funny that was the first thing out of their mouth. They thought it was a shame that I lost half my tank depth by going to sw. :rolleye1:

It does play tricks on you when cleaning as it looks like the inside magnet is going to hit the rocks for sure when viewed from the front, even if they are a solid 6" away.