400's vs 250's

Not really dennis. An Aquatinics 5x54wattT5 fixture is $350. It is about 300 watts at the outlet, and would need 5 bulbs, or about $100. So the end cost is $450.

The cost per month, assuming an 8 hour daily photoperiod, is $7.20 per month at $.10 per kwh.

The replacement cost on the bulbs is about $50-80 per year (depends on spectrum and price).

The 8x54watt Current USA is $464.95 Thats the same as the Aquatinics. But, those 5 bulbs in the Aquatinics are going to be about 3x more effective each than the Nova due to the reflectors... so like having 15 of the bulbs in the Nova.

Starting cost is the same. Overall output is less with the Current USA even with more bulbs. Long term costs will be $100-130 per year for bulbs, and $11.52 per month for electricity.

So initial startup costs are about the same, but the Current 8 bulb solution will cost about $101 more per year while producing 46% less light. None of this includes the additional factor of heat that the 3 more bulbs will produce, and its effects on the A/C in summer, the tank, etc.

Just saying, sometimes what appears to be the cheaper solution isnt. The other thing is that the bulbs that you would select with the Aquatinics would be much better (ATI's, UVL's, Giesemann's, Sfiligoi, KZ, and AquaScience) rather than the cheap chinese bulbs that the Current supplies.

Still, its a huge step up from your previous PC bulbs, Im sure. Just saying, you could have done it for less.

As for bulbs... the aquablue+ bulbs by ATI, G-man, etc... are really daylight bulbs, or 'dayactinics'... they are like a 10,000K-12,000K bulb, or a 'dayactinic'. They have blue, sure, but lots of daylight as well. The only thing they lack all together are some of the warmer spectrums... red, yellow, etc. This is where the single 3000K comes in. You could also use a single GE 6500K to suppliment this spectrum w/o being as narrow in the warm spectral output.

That list is a good 'blend' of bulbs. A little bit of each type made... except one. If you wanted, you could sub any one of the bulbs for a KZ fiji purple or ATI pro color. These are difficult bulbs to explain... but corals seem to love them. They are a 'pink' bulb... sort of a daylight bulb with a huge spike in the red spectrum. I gave you a good mix, trust me. I used 2xblue+, 2x actinic03, and 2x aquablue+ on my 40B (6x39watt) and it looked great (corals loved it too). The only thing I would have changed is to have one of the aquablues be a midday/6500K type bulb for just a little more daylight. I figured that the above combo uses every type of bulb out there, so you can play around... mix and match, and find out which combo you like the best overall. The combo also covers all spectrums well, so all corals should like it, but its still got plenty of blue so you dont have to worry about liking it.

I wouldnt steer you wrong, its from first hand experience.
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10896465#post10896465 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by hahnmeister

The 8x54watt Current USA is $464.95 Thats the same as the Aquatinics. But, those 5 bulbs in the Aquatinics are going to be about 3x more effective each than the Nova due to the reflectors... so like having 15 of the bulbs in the Nova.

Well one thing that made me decide on the Current was a special where I paid $369 for the fixture plus $20 for shipping for a total of $389. I was weighing it avainst an Ice Cap unit which was way way more. Never considered the 5 bulb unit as I assumed 5 bulbs would not be enough.

Also remember I'm going with mostly softies and LPS's. So there wioll not be as much demand for light as with most SPS's. My other thought was if I needed more I could always add a pair of 250 W XM10,000K's or Ushio 6,500K metal hides.

The $100 savings here I looked at using tword a tunze pump and controler since I think flow is just as important as light.


<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10896465#post10896465 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by hahnmeister

Still, its a huge step up from your previous PC bulbs, Im sure. Just saying, you could have done it for less.

Actually my old set up was 1 Ushio 6,500K, 1 XM 10,000K plus the PC's for atinic power.

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10896465#post10896465 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by hahnmeister


As for bulbs... the aquablue+ bulbs by ATI, G-man, etc... are really daylight bulbs, or 'dayactinics'... they are like a 10,000K-12,000K bulb, or a 'dayactinic'. They have blue, sure, but lots of daylight as well. The only thing they lack all together are some of the warmer spectrums... red, yellow, etc. This is where the single 3000K comes in. You could also use a single GE 6500K to suppliment this spectrum w/o being as narrow in the warm spectral output.

That list is a good 'blend' of bulbs. A little bit of each type made... except one. If you wanted, you could sub any one of the bulbs for a KZ fiji purple or ATI pro color. These are difficult bulbs to explain... but corals seem to love them. They are a 'pink' bulb... sort of a daylight bulb with a huge spike in the red spectrum. I gave you a good mix, trust me. I used 2xblue+, 2x actinic03, and 2x aquablue+ on my 40B (6x39watt) and it looked great (corals loved it too). The only thing I would have changed is to have one of the aquablues be a midday/6500K type bulb for just a little more daylight. I figured that the above combo uses every type of bulb out there, so you can play around... mix and match, and find out which combo you like the best overall. The combo also covers all spectrums well, so all corals should like it, but its still got plenty of blue so you dont have to worry about liking it.

I wouldnt steer you wrong, its from first hand experience.

No I don't suspect your steering me wrong. However I have found that color balance is also dictated by personal taste. I look out there and see other tanks and what turns me off the most are purple tank, followed by a tank that have simply to much blue and you drown out some of other colors. then there is the tank with fantastic growth but everything looks brown.

What I'm trying to get is a balance in my Sunrise-sunset (with the atinics) that does not look just blue but also has a little color in it. Then for the main daytime lighting it is mainly a crisp light that shows all the colors up with just a tint of blue dominance (and not purple as somme tanks are)

I'll slowly move into your suggestions. probably starting with the 6,500K or 3,000K as the first stem, then secondly working on the atinics.

Thanks for the pointers.
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10892172#post10892172 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by hahnmeister
Steve, Im talking about this... 14.5"W x 14.5"L x 7"H
http://lumenarclighting.com/proddetail.asp?prod=LA3-Stealth-DE

I have one and it just rocks. Sadly, it was too large to fit over my new tank with all the T5s since its 14.5" wide.

The one one this page might be for you if you need something a bit smaller...
http://www.reefexotics.com/lumenarc.htm
$99, and 13" x 12" x 7" H, the one you pointed out I believe.

There is also this one by CoralVue (its a lumenarc that PGS is suing CoralVue over) http://www.aquacave.com/detail.aspx?ID=1209

The thing is, I know Daniel from PGS, and he tells me that if you just call PGS, they can work with you to make just about anything you want. In your case, you might want the DE reflector... maybe the 'mini' which is 14x14, or maybe the one that is even a bit smaller (he has even made full size lumenarcs, 19x19, with DE sockets. You most likely dont need the black shell though... so that would be a savings to you. But, you might like the ducting add-on so you can duct air directly from the bulbs to the outside. If you contact him, he can get you what you want, and he will price it just as competitively as any of the other vendors... since he is the one who makes them (er, rather, its his family that owns PGS).

Okay, here goes. You have an icecap 660, thats great. You can run 5' T5 bulbs, 3 of them, with a slight overdrive (only 6%, so nothing crazy like the 4' ones which are overdriven about 25%). These bulbs will be 300 watts, and each T5 reflector is 2.75" wide (Icecap doesnt make 5' reflectors, so the next best is the Tek 2, actually a very nice reflector that can be better than the IC depending on how you use it). If you use 2x ATI blue+, and one Actinic bulb (the UVL would be a good pick), you will have loads of blue to compete with the 10,000Kish halides. So thats 8.25" thick. The opening on your tank should be about 22"... so thats 13.75" left. You could go two ways here. You could squeeze a VHO actinic in (so on its own timer+ ballast, you could have after hours 'actinic' time). Then you would go with the smaller reflector. Or, if you packed them in, maybe tilting a T5 reflector a little to the side or something to get back 1/4 inch, you could get the 14"x14" lumenarc reflectors in there. OR you can get the smaller reflectors, not add the VHO or additional actinic bulb, and call it a day... leaving the extra space for future possibilities... like a strip of actinic/420nm LED's for late-night fun.

On the PFO ballasts... I would just sell your 400's as they are. They are worth more like that. Then, M80 ballasts arent that heavy on their own... its the huge extruded heatsink that PFO uses to shed the heat. Rather than use fans/venting, PFO uses a massive aluminum heatsink to shed the heat. You can easily pack three M80 ballasts in something smaller, lighter, etc. and use it like you would an electronic ballast. A breaker box... ammo box, mini computer case (built in fans then too). All good options.

Jon,

I called PGS. I did not talk to Daniel as he was busy with a customer, but I talked to David. I asked him about making a slightly smaller sized lumenarc reflector design that wasn't as tall, and he stated that they did not have a design team available to do something like that. Did I miss something as it sounded from your emails that they might be able to make something like this only I needed maybe a 5" height version...:

[/B]
http://www.reefexotics.com/lumenarc.htm
$99, and 13" x 12" [/B]
 
Well, I dont think you would want to have them make a custom 5" tall version. The amount of light lost out the sides would be very high. I think they can do custom sizes, but they have to keep the proportions or the reflector wont work the same. If you 'flatten' the reflector, the light will not converge the same as its supposed to, nor will it all enter the water at a parallel angle.

Just curious... why 5" tall?
 
The thing to remember is reflector design is not all that simple. There are slight modifications that can inadvertantly cause extrem differences in there efficiency. Some of these critical changes are the distance from the bulb to the reflector as well as the angle of reflectance. Simple changes like making a reflector shorter could drasticly change these factors.

Dennis


<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10934516#post10934516 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by srlumaye1
Jon,

I called PGS. I did not talk to Daniel as he was busy with a customer, but I talked to David. I asked him about making a slightly smaller sized lumenarc reflector design that wasn't as tall, and he stated that they did not have a design team available to do something like that. Did I miss something as it sounded from your emails that they might be able to make something like this only I needed maybe a 5" height version...:


http://www.reefexotics.com/lumenarc.htm
$99, and 13" x 12" [/B] [/B]
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10935894#post10935894 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by hahnmeister
Well, I dont think you would want to have them make a custom 5" tall version. The amount of light lost out the sides would be very high. I think they can do custom sizes, but they have to keep the proportions or the reflector wont work the same. If you 'flatten' the reflector, the light will not converge the same as its supposed to, nor will it all enter the water at a parallel angle.

Just curious... why 5" tall?

As mentioned earlier, I have 10.5" height in my hood from the top to the bracing. The MH are mounted to the top of the hood with a 1/4" standoff, the MH/spider reflectors take 5.5", and the VHO's take 3". My VHO's can slide back and forth underneath the MH so that I can have 2 VHO in the front, and then slide them towards the back of the tank when I need to get my hands in the tank.

I have not had time to call anyone to find out how tall the Tek 2 reflectors are, but figure it will be about the same as the VHO by the time I get the reflectors attached to the sliding bracket.

The Reef Optix III is only 4" tall (11 x 9 x 4") and only $110 but you don't seem as impressed as others on Reef Central are with it. It is probably popular as that is what Sanjay did a lot of testing with... The best is the lumenarcs, with the 13 x 12 x 7" only $99 from ReefExotics. My last option is the Coralvue which is 12 x 11 x 5" but $139. Is the 5" (x3) worth an extra $120? Cost is not an issue financial-wise, but I have a problem with the perceived value...

Steve
 
Steve,

Your tank only 24" front to back. I don't see why you would need a large pendant. Reefoptix III should be fine. A smaller reflector is going to reflect the light into the tank & not to the front & back of your canopy.
 
Some of those smaller pendants, like the PFO, and the RO3, have convergence spots though... so their output will not travel nearly as far. Sure, they have a 'hot spot' closer to the surface... but thats not really all that important, since no corals like PAR levels in the 1000's... but on a 24" tall tank, Im sure there are some that would prefer to have more light down lower. The lumenarc style reflectors are just better at making parallel light rays... combined with more area up top, this means more light in the tank, but with less of a 'hot spot' up top, and more divergence down below.

Prugs, I wouldnt underestimate the extra power of the lumenarc style reflectors. They really are that much better than PFOs and SLS Reef Optics. The other option is the LumenMax... but its not cheap...
http://www.sunlightsupply.com/produ...137B6E0815D553465B8F26B0C8FDF&c=23&kys=&pgi=1

I see it for $150 at most places, and its not exactly better than a lumenarc. But it does fit in your desired dimensions Steve...
Dimensions: 15” Long x 11½” Wide x 5” Tall.

As for the spread on a 24" wide tank... 'tasha' has two PFO's on his 120g (similar to the RO, just 1" wider), and he has some darkening issues as you go to the very back of the tank and the front. A lumenarc would help him there. Efficiency-wise, they are loads better than most. And considering the price is only $10-30 more most of the time... why not? And no, they dont lose more light out the front and back of the tank or to the sides... the extra height is there to take care of that. Getting one smaller means that all the other proportions should be smaller as well or you will have different convergence/divergence issues as Dennis pointed out... you have to keep the angles and proportions the same when you go larger or smaller.

Height wise though, I would mount the T5s and halide side by side, not one below the other, just so that the T5s cant block any of the output from the halides. The spread on the lumenarcs is very wide. Dont get me wrong, the RO's and the PFO's are good reflectors, but if your going to do it, you might as well go for the best you can.

Oh, and yes the T5s are the same height. The standoffs/endcaps are the same, just different internals.
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10940816#post10940816 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by hahnmeister
Some of those smaller pendants, like the PFO, and the RO3, have convergence spots though... so their output will not travel nearly as far. Sure, they have a 'hot spot' closer to the surface... but thats not really all that important, since no corals like PAR levels in the 1000's... but on a 24" tall tank, Im sure there are some that would prefer to have more light down lower. The lumenarc style reflectors are just better at making parallel light rays... combined with more area up top, this means more light in the tank, but with less of a 'hot spot' up top, and more divergence down below.

Prugs, I wouldnt underestimate the extra power of the lumenarc style reflectors. They really are that much better than PFOs and SLS Reef Optics. The other option is the LumenMax... but its not cheap...
http://www.sunlightsupply.com/produ...137B6E0815D553465B8F26B0C8FDF&c=23&kys=&pgi=1

I see it for $150 at most places, and its not exactly better than a lumenarc. But it does fit in your desired dimensions Steve...
Dimensions: 15” Long x 11½” Wide x 5” Tall.

As for the spread on a 24" wide tank... 'tasha' has two PFO's on his 120g (similar to the RO, just 1" wider), and he has some darkening issues as you go to the very back of the tank and the front. A lumenarc would help him there. Efficiency-wise, they are loads better than most. And considering the price is only $10-30 more most of the time... why not? And no, they dont lose more light out the front and back of the tank or to the sides... the extra height is there to take care of that. Getting one smaller means that all the other proportions should be smaller as well or you will have different convergence/divergence issues as Dennis pointed out... you have to keep the angles and proportions the same when you go larger or smaller.

Height wise though, I would mount the T5s and halide side by side, not one below the other, just so that the T5s cant block any of the output from the halides. The spread on the lumenarcs is very wide. Dont get me wrong, the RO's and the PFO's are good reflectors, but if your going to do it, you might as well go for the best you can.

Oh, and yes the T5s are the same height. The standoffs/endcaps are the same, just different internals.

With the T5's lower than the MH, I can put them 2" from the water surface instead of 5" - 7" (assuming I mount them at the bottom of the MH reflector and not the top). The other thing is by being able to slide the T5's back underneath, I can get my hands into the tank easily. Would not be able to do that if they were mounted at the same height as the MH reflector. Thus I will more than likely use a 5" MH reflector with lower mounted T5's.

Also, with T5's at 2" from the water, that should get more light into the tank. Also, shouldn't it get more light at the place where the reflector doesn't reach if I do not use the 14" lumenarcs? Question is will the T5's compensate for the loss of light at the front and back of the tank you mentioned.

As far as light dispersion, I've always wanted a little bit of everything: SPS,LPS,leathers,red mushrooms, clams, etc. I would think (at least when the SPS are small and don't shade everything), that having shaded light and dark spots within a tank of this purpose would be beneficial as I could place less light tolerant things in the front and back, as well as underneath shaded areas. In the past, I could not keep polyps as they would always be shriveled up from too much light.

I'll mull over the MH reflector choice another week or so. Meanwhile I'll go through your PAR readings/pictures on various tanks and look at their relector combinations if available.
 
Jon,

You made the comment that an icecap 660 would fire three 5' bulbs with not much overdrive, but 3 4' bulbs would be overdriven. Does that mean if I drive TWO 5' bulbs on the icecap they will also be overdriven?

Reason I ask is I 'm going to go with the 11.5 x 11.5 lumen max reflectors, which means I may be able to fit 4 T5 bulbs in the hood. If I buy another 660, would I go with 3 bulbs on one and 1 on the other, or 2 on each? Or get something else for the other ballast?

Then again, a website stated the 660 would do up to 4 bulbs up to 440W.

4 bulbs at 80W each is only 320W. Thus shouldn't I be able to get all 4 80W bulbs on the icecap?

Gonna be a big order from Reef Geek on Nov 7th...
 
No, dual 5' bulbs wont be overdriven. The ballast just overdrives depending on the length of the bulb, not the number. So two 5' bulbs would still be running at 100 watts each at the wall outlet... which like I mentioned before, isnt that much of an overdrive considering a spec T5 ballast will run an 80 watt bulb a bit over 90 watts from the outlet anyways.

You cant do 4x 5' bulbs though, because the other critical spec on the IC660 is no more than a total of 16' of bulb length.

You can wire the bulbs however you like... whatever suits your particular viewing situation. If you already have one IC660, and you run 3 bulbs with that, then maybe its worth just getting a spec Sylvania 1x80 watt T5HO ballast. Maybe you want to have two actinics on one ballast, and two blue+ on the other... you know? Maybe you want to run three blue+ all the time, with just the one actinic left on for 'after hours' viewing. Your call is what it comes down to. I have been seeing prices some down on them recently...
http://www.specialty-lights.com/010560.html

I think I even saw some on ebay recently for $45 each.

Anyways, since you dont need a full 6 bulbs worth of T5 ballasts... it might be a more cost effective method.

Funny you should mention the wattage about the IC660. I recently posted in the IC forum "why dont you guys 'retune' the IC660 like you are some other ballasts so it can handle 4x80wattT5s?" Like you mentioned... the wattage is well within range. But the ballasts wont fire 4 bulbs because of the total length being more than 16'. It would seem to me that some recalibration of the internal electronics would be all that would be needed, and why not do a slight upgrade to the IC660? Its not like many people are scooping them up for VHO's or PC bulbs anymore. They could call it the Icecap 666! That would be, as tasha sez: 'Solid!'
 
Those workhorse arent the best ballasts for T5s though... they run them at lower output, and dont have a soft start/programmed start mechanism, so they tend to wear out the bulbs faster.

They work, but arent the best.
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11064108#post11064108 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by hahnmeister
No, dual 5' bulbs wont be overdriven. The ballast just overdrives depending on the length of the bulb, not the number. So two 5' bulbs would still be running at 100 watts each at the wall outlet... which like I mentioned before, isnt that much of an overdrive considering a spec T5 ballast will run an 80 watt bulb a bit over 90 watts from the outlet anyways.

You cant do 4x 5' bulbs though, because the other critical spec on the IC660 is no more than a total of 16' of bulb length.

You can wire the bulbs however you like... whatever suits your particular viewing situation. If you already have one IC660, and you run 3 bulbs with that, then maybe its worth just getting a spec Sylvania 1x80 watt T5HO ballast. Maybe you want to have two actinics on one ballast, and two blue+ on the other... you know? Maybe you want to run three blue+ all the time, with just the one actinic left on for 'after hours' viewing. Your call is what it comes down to. I have been seeing prices some down on them recently...
http://www.specialty-lights.com/010560.html

I think I even saw some on ebay recently for $45 each.

Anyways, since you dont need a full 6 bulbs worth of T5 ballasts... it might be a more cost effective method.

Funny you should mention the wattage about the IC660. I recently posted in the IC forum "why dont you guys 'retune' the IC660 like you are some other ballasts so it can handle 4x80wattT5s?" Like you mentioned... the wattage is well within range. But the ballasts wont fire 4 bulbs because of the total length being more than 16'. It would seem to me that some recalibration of the internal electronics would be all that would be needed, and why not do a slight upgrade to the IC660? Its not like many people are scooping them up for VHO's or PC bulbs anymore. They could call it the Icecap 666! That would be, as tasha sez: 'Solid!'

In all your "testing", have you seen what corals look like with just the ATI Blue+ bulbs and nothing else on? How does that look compare to the actinic 03 look I'm used to?

Currently I was planning on buying 4 blue+ bulbs and skip the actinic. Thus night viewing would be with the halides off. If that is going to look "funky", then maybe I SHOULD order a couple actinics "just in case"...

Steve
 
Sure, I have those bulbs. The blue+ is a blue bulb... peaking in the 450nm range. An actinic is purple.

As for looks, you could go all blue... nothing wrong with that. Its personal taste really.
 
Steve,

You're welcome to see my tank. I use the blue+ exclusively for dawn/cloudy mid-day/dusk lighting. They really make the red, orange, & yellow's pop. I also use them to balance the color of the Ushio 14K's HQI's I'm running for the main grow lights. If I had a FOWLER or low light tank, it would be the only lamp I'd use. JMOOC
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11100020#post11100020 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by hahnmeister
Sure, I have those bulbs. The blue+ is a blue bulb... peaking in the 450nm range. An actinic is purple.

As for looks, you could go all blue... nothing wrong with that. Its personal taste really.

My eyes do not perceive the URI VHO actinic 03 bulbs as "purple"... I guess I'll try all blue+ first. If I don't like it, I'll just buy actinics later...

Thanks
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11100122#post11100122 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Gem Tang Rider
Steve,

You're welcome to see my tank. I use the blue+ exclusively for dawn/cloudy mid-day/dusk lighting. They really make the red, orange, & yellow's pop. I also use them to balance the color of the Ushio 14K's HQI's I'm running for the main grow lights. If I had a FOWLER or low light tank, it would be the only lamp I'd use. JMOOC

Weird how the red and orange and yellow would "pop" with a "Blue" bulb unless you are talking about the flouresence... When you say pop, does that mean it seems like a black light is on and things kind of glow in the dark?

Thanks for the offer to visit, but unfortunately I probably wouldn't have the time before the group buy to visit. Been on the road too much and have the daughters BDay party to get ready for this weekend. Someday I'll get back into making the meetings and visiting tanks; other things take precedence right now though when I AM not on the road. Hopefully having $1000 worth of new lighting parts laying around the house will make the fish tank a higher priority to get it back in shape again.
 
The Blue+ bulb has it's advantages - it is brighter than the actinics, and it does make certain colors really stand out. I used them exclusively with no actinic for a couple years.

HOWEVER, when I set up this new tank I decided to revisit the actinic bulbs a bit. There is a very obvious difference in what these bulbs do compared to the Blue +. A couple of corals I had for years began to fluoresce in ways I had not seen before when I had been using only the Blue+ It was very obvious, and I tried several times just switching back and forth between Blue+ and actinic. The actinic are worthwhile, IMO. Currently, I use 2 Blue+ to balance out the slight yellow hue of the 10k XMs I use. I also have 4 actinic bulbs in place and I feel they add a lot. For a couple hours at night I have all 6 T5 bulbs on with the XMs, then for late night viewing, it switches to the 4 actinics only.
 
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