5 months Prodibio results

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7831112#post7831112 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Marcello Salles
Hi guys

Zeo fans, sorry ... i dont wanna talk anything bad about Zeo, i saw a lot of Zeo tanks at Interzoo 2006 and like the results.

But at the stand of Zeo the sales guys was telling the customers that some cautions are needed. If the tank has a reading phosphate, this should be first driven zero with a phos absorb, and some other points that deserves special attention..
Its a great system, produces great results but needs more care on the start and probably more time to understand it and learn what and how to use it.

But i am thinking to set up a Zeo tank also to compare the results.

The only thing that i want to say about Prodibio its that you can start without any fear. There is no threat to the tank.
But it will take more time to produce results than Zeo, it takes more time to create a "new" strain of Prodibio bacteria and time to let them grow accordingly to your system. But when this process is finished you will only continue to drop the ampoules weekly and enjoy it.

I am taking pictures and will post when available.

Take care,

Marcello

Not to say you are wrong, but I have never heard anyone on the zeoboards recommend to use a phosphate absorber before using zeo. Infact, I think its usually recommended to remove any phosphate absorbers. Seriously though guys, any question you have about Zeo for the most part can be answered in the Zeovit guide found here --->> http://captiveoceans.com/pdfs/ZEOguide1.02.pdf

That will dispell alot of the common misconceptions and tell you whats REALLY going on here. If you have any further questions about it, I suggest you talk to some of the folks over on the Zeovit boards. Most of the experienced zeovit users are over there. There are a few of them on here as well... CAReefer happens to be one of them (was just made a mod over there recently as well).
 
1) I couldn't find an answer why K is depleted in the zeo systems at alarming rates, in the guide? Can you explain?

2) I have always heard folks on the zeo forums say that bringing nutrients down too fast will cause RTN, nutrients being nitrate/phosphates, wouldn't that also mean that if you bring a frag/colony from a system with high nitrate/phosphates in to a system, zeo or otherwise, with low nutrients, giving them a nutrient shock, if I may coin a new term, will also cause them to RTN? But that is not the case, why is that?
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7833888#post7833888 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by amuruges
1) I couldn't find an answer why K is depleted in the zeo systems at alarming rates, in the guide? Can you explain?

2) I have always heard folks on the zeo forums say that bringing nutrients down too fast will cause RTN, nutrients being nitrate/phosphates, wouldn't that also mean that if you bring a frag/colony from a system with high nitrate/phosphates in to a system, zeo or otherwise, with low nutrients, giving them a nutrient shock, if I may coin a new term, will also cause them to RTN? But that is not the case, why is that?

I have always wandered about #2 also.

Mike
 
I thought this was a Prodibio thread? I'd like to hear from more users of this product.

Preferably from users not crossing Prodibo with other products or vodka.
 
I have been using probio in my BB tank for about 6 months.
I like it.
Has cleaned up the rocks etc nicely. starting to show great color now i have my ca etc on track.

dose 1amp biodigest and 2bioptium + amino acids.
 
Marcello

Interesting results - thats what I found too. Any before after pics pls?

I'm just nosy:)

Amuruges

I think there are three possible explanations re potassium depletion in zb4 run tanks:

1) There isnt a difference between zb4, prodi or berlin systems: How do we know? beacuse we cant test for potassium.

2) Zeolites adsorbs potassium: We cant know because we arnt told so can only infer from observations;

3) Growth rates in zeo systems are higher - requiring higher supplementation - but there are only few of us who have tried all 3 system who can comment from experience and that builds a very slow picture of consistant anecdote - (or not?:) )

In my experience - growth rates are higher since I've used ZB4 compared with prodi, but that may not have any significance. Iwan uses prodi and his growth rates are phenomenal.

I think the observations you shared via PM are very interesting for people exploring these types of systems.

Regarding 'nutrient shock' - I have found this taking frags from dealers tanks to mine in some cases- mostly they get over it - but many tend to look a 'little on the edge' for a while. More so with ZB4 than prodi - I have to say.

Cheers

Simon
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7811515#post7811515 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by FSOL
Here's a pic of the tank
IMG_2972.jpg

Nice work:eek1:
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7842699#post7842699 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by TryTheChi
Marcello

2) Zeolites adsorbs potassium: We cant know because we arnt told so can only infer from observations;

There is a study of the content of the zeo rocks starting at day 4 and a follow up at either 60 or 90 days I don't recall which. That study shows various metal contents etc.
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7843622#post7843622 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by DrBDC
There is a study of the content of the zeo rocks starting at day 4 and a follow up at either 60 or 90 days I don't recall which. That study shows various metal contents etc.

Hi DrB

Sounds helpful - do you have a link please?

Thanks

Simon
 
Here's the analysis I was talking about:

http://translate.google.com/transla...&u=http://www.teichratgeber.de/ma_zeovit.html

The biggest problem I have, (I don't mind overpaying for a convienience product) I just don't like secrets. I want to know what I'm adding to my tank and be able to lay it out in chemical formula or be able to have a justified theory on how it works. I really really don't like when people post photoshopped pics of tanks to show how well something works. If I can't see the back wall and fish look unnatural, it makes me wonder if the tank looks bad and they had to or if its a really bad camera that can't process images correctly.

I'll post this but it is from another thread, I don't want to be rehashing this:

Here's a breakdown of SOME of the aluminum issue's brought up:

Randy's article:

Conclusions:

Aluminum is an ion that does not get much attention, and has no clear biological use in aquaria. It can, however, have an impact on aquarium organisms if elevated sufficiently over natural levels. Phosguard has been shown to release aluminum to artificial seawater. Further, it appears that the release of aluminum could be the cause of the effects that some folks have seen in aquaria when using aluminum-based phosphate and silicate absorbing materials. However, only a larger study could definitively demonstrate that to be the case.

Such biological effects have not been widely reported for the iron-based phosphate removers (e.g., Rowaphos and Salifertââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢s Phosphate Killer). Consequently, if you are interested in using phosphate-absorbing media, those latter types might be a better choice.

Kallmeyer's article:
In rather old tanks with higher nutrient concentrations, the corals were well adapted to these conditions and the sudden drop caused massive die-off of colonies that had been growing well over decades. The corals starved and became susceptible to parasites and diseases. If the corals did not starve to death, the parasites killed them. It seems that tanks that have started with Zeolite filtration run very well and without major problems, while old established tanks are much more sensitive to it.


Sabrella's article doesn't say how much aluminum is in the starting sample, just that it has 39.8 mg at 5 days and 39.2 mg after 47 days. It would be interesting to see the Day 0 analysis and if a large amount is released immediately or does it stay the approximate same value. Most likely the initial 5 days has a higher release due to dust etc. even with rinsing just like carbon, phosban, etc. does when first installed.

Instant ocean has .006 ppm total aluminum per the S-15 report. Some studies with inferior equipment have posted as high as .1 ppm levels but as with any equipment, background noise is an issue thus better equipment=more accurate results. Randy Holmes Farley has tested his tank and he detected none. With his test equipment he could have picked up as low as .05 ppm and he even drips limewater for all his ca/alk needs and limewater has borderline high levels. The limewater probably accounts for the higher levels vs. the .006 in the fresh ASW. There are other studies which have shown the asw of IO has less than .008 ppm.

Now if zeovit releases .0142, that would 2.5X the aluminum content (assuming the .006 al study level) in 1 day. Using the higher level aluminum content test of .1, it would take roughly 6 days to do the same 2.5X. Over a year that could be a lot. Remember even 25% water changes with none present will build up very high levels over the course of a year. There are some interesting articles in the chemistry column about concentrations and water change amounts if you want to study on that.

I did a check with Randy to double check my numbers. I was a little shocked that there would be that much aluminum introduced and thought maybe I was having a TIA. Here's that thread:
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/s...506#post6279506
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7811517#post7811517 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Eric Boerner
Where are you getting it from in the US? Any cheap dealers? None of the large retailers online seem to have it.

:confused:


It's a two way street brotha ;) It pretty much is what it is. Everyone has a free choice to choose what works best, right? Just be glad you don't have to deal with the heat and insane elecricity costs anymore;) Sure is killing us here in Cali:eek2:
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7843850#post7843850 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by DrBDC
Here's the analysis I was talking about:

[[/url]

Many thanks - very interesting.
So the zeolites add calcium and Iron, adsorb sodium and chlorine and is neutral in terms of potassium and phosphate.

If it acts as an NH3/4 adsorber - what would that show up as in such an anaysis?

Thanks again

Simon
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7833888#post7833888 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by amuruges
1) I couldn't find an answer why K is depleted in the zeo systems at alarming rates, in the guide? Can you explain?

I dont have an answer for this question, probably best to ask the zeo experts. I have witnessed tanks with very low levels of K+ though....What is causing it I really couldnt tell you.

BTW, there is a K+ test kit now available from KZ. No distrubutors have it in stock yet in the US but some have ordered them and hope to get them in the next weeks.

My buddy got one directly from Germany and he did verify his tank has low K+....He has been on Zeo for almost 2 years now. He self admittedly didnt do water changes like he should though either. That may have contributed to his problem. I need to get myself a kit soon and find out my tanks situation too. Ive been on Zeo for about 4 months now and havnt been dosing any K+, however, I have done some farily good size water changes since starting Zeo.
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7846044#post7846044 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Horace
I dont have an answer for this question, probably best to ask the zeo experts. I have witnessed tanks with very low levels of K+ though....What is causing it I really couldnt tell you.

BTW, there is a K+ test kit now available from KZ. No distrubutors have it in stock yet in the US but some have ordered them and hope to get them in the next weeks.

My buddy got one directly from Germany and he did verify his tank has low K+....He has been on Zeo for almost 2 years now. He self admittedly didnt do water changes like he should though either. That may have contributed to his problem. I need to get myself a kit soon and find out my tanks situation too. Ive been on Zeo for about 4 months now and havnt been dosing any K+, however, I have done some farily good size water changes since starting Zeo.

I have but got no response there either. I have the K test kit and tested my potassium at 340ppm I will be adjusting my K-Balance dosing a bit soon.
 
Fair enough - its going off topic:) Still - its a tribute to prodibio's effectiveness in people's experience that the inevitable comparisons with other probiotic methods are brought in. Personally, as the user base expands, I think we are going to see some real innovation by cross fertilising methods.....


Cheers

SImon
 
there must be more people out there that use probio?
How many of you guys / girls live in the states or europe???:)
lot more than the 12 or so in NZ
 
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