A First Plywood Project...

NY_Englishman : Thanks again for the compliments!! I think I'll figure out the glass method when I get the piece and see how much it weighs. I'll keep you posted!

Hobster : Thank you also for the compliments! I really like the WS epoxy and have had no problems with its application. As for the construction, I consider myself a fairly experienced woodworker with moderate tools. Having said that, if you go back to the original post in this thread you will see a link to another RC thread in which another guy made a plywood tank. I modeled this tank after his (aside from some dimensional differences) almost exactly. I used the epoxy fillets (which I learned about from a dear friend who built boats and aquariums) in all the seams and it looks like he used some 2x2's? to line some of his internal seams to make the tank stronger. I used the WS epoxy and topped it with some dark blue AquaticEco Sweetwater 2-part epoxy paint (beacuse I had it laying around) while he used the WS epoxy with dark bloue coloring agent. For the most part I think the tanks are nearly identical in construction and strength. Any alterations done to the tank that were different than his have been from my head based on other methods of woodworking. I did most of the access cutting (i.e. top access, both front panel viewing holes and the back overflow panel) with a router with a pattern bit.

Thanks again and I hope to post more soon...
 
Hi Sean,

As I think I mentioned earlier I intend to make a 10ft+ tank and I wanted to solicit your thoughts. All the DIY tanks I have seen are under 10ft in length and I think one of the reasons for this is that plywood typically comes in 8ft (sometimes) 10ft lengths. I know there are other considerations but I think people are put off by the idea of having seams within the tank (away from the corners). {actually, maybe you can get longer plywood lengths so I may research that a bit more}.

I don't really see any huge issues in using two pieces for the back and bottom i.e. have a seam within the tank. I would actually double up the plywood all around (the wetside inner seam would be displaced/staggered from the outer seam) and I would strenghthen the back/bottom externally with 2 x 4s etc and fillet the inside/wetside seams (plus some extra fibreglass).

I would love to know what you think about going beyond 10ft in length - would you care comment on this structural aspect, please? Obviously getting hold of PPG Starphire glass (or even generic low iron) at 3/4" thickness in lengths longer than 10ft would be difficult (even with lamination). Am I mad? I intend to do a stress analysis as well as a sanity check (smile).

Thanks,
Paul
 
Hi NY_Englishman,

ARE YOU MAD?!? Isn't mad a good thing? HAHA I think it can be done EASILY! Use the best plywood you can get. I used this 3/4" 10 ply birch from HD at $45.00/sheet and then discovered that the sheets were made in China and have unfilled gaps within the plys. These gaps are not very large but I believe they lend a lot to the flexibility of the plywood. My tank is SOLID but I may need that extra support from the threaded rod to keep the front from overflexing. I would stagger the seams and maybe even mix up some epoxy, roll it on to one sheet and put the other sheet on top of it and screw them together firmly. This lamination should be EXTREMELY strong and I wouldn't think there would be much chance of seapration. This coupled with the fillets and the woven roving (fiberglass cloth) should make for some sound contruction. Also, with the 2 sheet thickness of the bottom, back and front you can cut one of the layers longer than the other so you would have a more complex glueing joint as if you had used a rabbeting bit to make a sort of Z shaped edge that fits within and outside of the other pieces in the assembly stage. I hope you can picture what I mean. Wood workers prefer the most glueing surface area that they can get. Most use a router with a rabbeting bit to make the pieces sort of interlock in assembly. The man that taught me the filleting always said... "Nails and screws are just used to hold everything together until the glue dries. A really good wood worker can make projects with no fasteners of any kind!" Keep in mind he is an old school ship craftsman, making a living building and restoring very expensive vessels.

The viewing panel would be the biggest problem I think. Call around and see if you can find a way to get a 10' length of glass. You may even contact someone like Envision Acrylics or one of many other acrylic tank builders to ask if you can buy a panel that long. I'm sure someone with the right experience could edge laminate 2 pieces of acrylic for you. You'd want it nice and thick and remember that it lends little structure to the front of the tank so good bracing. I read a thread somewhere on the web about someone who built a plywood tank about the size of this one give or tanke a little. He used acrylic because of the difficulty and expense of getting glass. He ended up getting a 4x8 sheet of acrylic cut to size and shipped him the cut piece as well as the drop off piece for the same price as the proper sized piece of green glass. So now I guess he has to build another tank for the other piece of acrylic. The only thing is... he had several leak problems with the front panel but that may have been due to an uneven bonding surface.

Personally... I would LOVE to see you try it. The downfall... if it failed it would be at least a $1500-$2000 regret. I have confidence but then again... I don't even know if mine holds water. Being the first plywood aquarium that I've ever built I am surprised that I can say there isn't anything that I'm not happy with. I'm soooooo picky!

Oh well... post to ya soon!
 
Thanks Sean for taking the time to write such a comprehensive reply. Iââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢m glad someone else thinks this can be done fairly easily. I certainly donââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢t mind giving it a whirl at the risk of dropping $2k; Iââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢ll probably do a 50% scale model as a trial run and use that tank elsewhere ââ"šÂ¬Ã¢â‚¬Å“ Iââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢ll also do plenty more research. Iââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢m planning on doing this next summer so I have time to do the research and practice my routing.

You made some great suggestions ââ"šÂ¬Ã¢â‚¬Å“ I hadnââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢t thought out yet the best way to do the seams and Iââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢ll look into the rabbiting bit approach you mentioned. The lamination idea, with epoxy, sounds a good idea too (Iââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢ll speak to the epoxy people about that also and try and identify the optimum plywood grade/supplier). I do intend to make use of eurobracing and stainless steel threaded bars along the length of the tank. In terms of finding the glass Iââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢ll see how that goes; I want to avoid using acrylic but will go that route if I have to. Iââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢m glad you are a discerning DIYer because I think being picky is a good thing with this type of project! I wrote to a few other people who have either made, or intend to make, similar tanks of varying lengths, so Iââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢m sure my design will evolve quite a bit.

Thanks again for your advice,
NY_Englishman
 
You will have a tough time figuring out how to bond acrylic and epoxy. Silicone sticks marginally well to epoxy, and poorly to acrylic. This is probably why the tank mentioned above had problems with leaks around the viewing panel.

I have done alot of searching and havn't found anyone that successfully built a plywood tank with an acrylic viewing panel.

You could probably use a mechanical method of joining the window to the frame, like a rubber seal and alot of stainless steel bolts but that's gotta be ugly.

Good luck
Jon
 
Thanks Jon, I think you may be right - I have read something similar. It's just as well that I'd much prefer glass even if it meant keeping the length down.

Back to Seans thread: Sean, when will you be fitting the glass?
 
Hey guys...

NY_Englishman : No problem... I always like comprehesive replies so I always try to give them. I think using epoxy to laminate the 2 layers of plywood is the way to go.

I did a little research for you today. A old friend of mine who owns the largest saltwater store in Louisiana has a large plywood tank in his shop. This tank is 10'x4'x3', made of plywood with fiberglass and polyester resin covered with black epoxy paint. He used a piece of tempered glass but I'm not sure what thickness but I believe it is 3/4 green glass. So it probably isn't too hard to get the glass in 10' lengths. I know plenty of fancy commercial buildings with tall tempered glass. So it can DEFINITELY be done. The size of George's tank is very pleasing, I love the 4' width.

I agree with Jon also, I'm not sure its worth the risk with silicone. My love for epoxy is now enormous and I am always thinking of some new projects. It may not be THAT hard or unattractive to mechanically adhere acrylic with a little planning. Perhaps with a double or even triple front layer of material you could countersink some bolts into the tank face that would be later hidden by a facia veneer. Or maybe use a forstner bit to eat out a nice hole in the face every 6 inches or so. Drop in a stainless washer and nut and pour epoxy around it. When set you could drill out the wood through the nut and then use a stainless bolt and washer from the inside. Veneer the outside when all finished and test filled and you shouldn't see any hardware by looking through the front panel. Doesn't seem that difficult if you're really stuck on using acrylic.

Anyways... now I want to try another tank with the acrylic. HAHA Have to wait on that one though. I am waiting on my glass until the 2nd week of January. The holidays coupled with all of the backed up orders for tempered glass due to the area's damage from Hurricane Katrina, the glass tempering companies are 3 weeks behind. I've paid 50% of the cost and I'm going to keep after the company for its progress. I hope to start on the filtration room this week and maybe even the plans for the stand. I ordered all of my bulkheads so I can start measuring and cutting holes in the tank. I plan on using some of the clear epoxy to cover the inside of the holes just as a precaution.

I think I am going to put 2-2" bulkheads in the trough for the sump drain dumping directly into a 3" manifold to go into the sump. The return pump will probably be a ReefFlo of some sort (not sure which one yet, probably a Dart or Barracuda) going back to the tank through a OM 8-way. The closed loop will be 2 Darts (one for the left half and the other for the right) with an OM Super Squirt on each. There will be 4-1" outlets, 1 in the sidewall of the tank, 1 in the rear wall & 2 in the bottom, and that will be mirrored on the opposite side. That will be it for main tank circulation. My 65 gallon frag tank will be fed from the sump by a Gen-X PCX40 through a 3/4" OM Squirt. Any thoughts on this?? Flow patterns have always been the hardest for me to decide on.

Oh well... I'm going to search the web for some more ideas... g'night!
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6308154#post6308154 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Sean : EbN
My love for epoxy is now enormous and I am always thinking of some new projects.
Click to expand...

102883pros.jpg


:D

Dan
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6305131#post6305131 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Pyrojon
You will have a tough time figuring out how to bond acrylic and epoxy. Silicone sticks marginally well to epoxy, and poorly to acrylic. This is probably why the tank mentioned above had problems with leaks around the viewing panel.

I have done alot of searching and havn't found anyone that successfully built a plywood tank with an acrylic viewing panel.
Click to expand...

Well then let me introduce myself. I've built a 72"x18"x25" plywood tank using SW epoxy and it has 1/2" acrylic viewing panels on both the long sides (72"x25"). Working great for 2 years now. On my next one I will sand the acrylic that contacts the silicon to give it a little more grab.


Dromeda
 
Hi Sean,

Thanks for the interesting ideas but I think I still want to stay away from acrylic ââ"šÂ¬Ã¢â‚¬Å“ I donââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢t really feel confident about drilling it or using elaborate fixing methods, at least if glass is still an option for me. I love the idea of hiding the hardware though; thatââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢s a great idea ââ"šÂ¬Ã¢â‚¬Å“ I might do that on my scale model. On my big tank I intend to utilize an in-wall design (so fasteners are easily hidden) and have a fish room with separate ventilation system, light movers and possibly (active) sun pipes.

In terms of finding long panes of glass, Iââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢d have to check but I canââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢t think of any tanks with PPG Starphire longer than 10ft ââ"šÂ¬Ã¢â‚¬Å“ Iââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢d take generic low iron though. You certainly can get regular float glass up longer than 10ft. Here is a 20ftââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢er using float glass I think (the videoââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢s a must-see and I'd hate to have to clean all that glass):

http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/mar2004/aquarium.htm

Here is one of my favorite 10ftââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢ers (using Ã"šÃ‚¾Ã¢â"šÂ¬Ã‚ Starphire):

http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=373673&perpage=25&pagenumber=1

By the way, I may still use single long pieces of timbers for the front frame, such as that shown in the following:

http://home.online.no/~joobjoer/eng_diy/2200litre/2200litres.html

Now back to your thread:

To hit all the controversy in one line my preferences are: bare bottoms over SBs, glass over acrylic, tall tanks over shallow tanks, low sump turnover over high, high level of fail-safe electronic automation, and like live-aboard ocean cruisers, I prefer to keep the number of (below water level) holes in my vessels to a minimum. Iââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢m also something of a reef virgin and donââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢t feel I can add anything of value to the already well-covered subjects of flow patterns and closed loop considerations ââ"šÂ¬Ã¢â‚¬Å“ I wish I could reciprocate your helpful and kind suggestions! Sorry, Sean, I just haven't researched that area yet. I will say that your initial preferences seem excellent choices to me and represent a well traveled path. The hardest thing for me, by far, is aquascaping by the way and justifying the cost of the live rock to the wife!

Cheers,
Englishman
 
Last edited:
Dromeda: thanks for weighing in and great to hear from another DIYer; sanding both the epoxy and the mating acrylic surface sounds a good idea. I don't want to take over Seans well written and informative thread though so I'll not solicit any more info here.
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6310215#post6310215 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by NY_Englishman
By the way, I may still use single long pieces of timbers for the front frame, such as that shown in the following:

http://home.online.no/~joobjoer/eng_diy/2200litre/2200litres.html
Click to expand...

Hi,

That's my tank! Anyway, the long timbers twisted a lot from moisture movement. So the whole front frame was quite bent before I put the glass in. That wasn't a problem for me since the glass is stiff enough to straighten it out. Still, if I had fiberglassed the frame before I put the glass in it would be impossible to straighten it. So I don't advice using timber in these constructions, it twists.

And just to have mentioned it one more time: Don't skip the fiberglass in the epoxy like I did! If I'm going to use that tank I will have to fiberglass it on the inside first. Just a coat of epoxy paint is not enough.
 
Thanks Jon for chiming in - I won't forget to use fibreglass (smile). Interesting that the frame twisted, I'm glad you told me! Back to a plywood frame for me supported by s.s. threaded bars!

You need to start using that tank sometime soon, Jon!
 
Hey NY-Englishman :

How do you intend to implement your threaded rods? I am still kicking around different ways of mounting my center threaded rod. I was going to mount some steel angle on the front and back in the center of the tank, epoxied to the top to pass the rod through and tighten against with washers and nuts, then clear epoxy the whole thing after the glass is in and everything adjusted.

Need more ideas... feed me Seymour!!

LATER!
 
Hi Sean,

Right now I intend to make the tank a wee bit taller than the intended water level to allow me the possibility of wave effects - within that exta space I intend to use square washes/plates like Jon used in his tank (link above) to spread the forces and reduce the pressure - I would drill holes in the front and rear of the tank, seal the wood and the just pass the threaded bar through the holes and tighten with a torque wrench (I'll aslo probably re-inforce these areas with fibreglass and epoxy). Again, I'm not worried about the aesthetics because of the in-wall design. I did consider using wire and eyelets but I think threaded bars is a better way to go. Here is a link to one such tank (sadly, it leaked):

http://members.shaw.ca/wmastop/bigtank/Startb~1.htm

Cheers,
NYE
 
As for acrylic front viewing panel not working, yes it will
In an I plywood tank it dose not mater if you use glass or acrylic
Personal preference, in my area the cost of acrylic is Ã"šÃ‚½ as much as glass
I like the idea of clearness of acrylic but not the scratch resistance
Glass is more scratch resistant but weighs 2x as much
The silicone is used just as a gasket to seal the front panel, not for strength of the tank
May not be as large but there out there
1700g shark tank
http://www.cichlid-forum.com/articles/diy_1700g_tank_1.php
Ken
 
Hello lpkirby,

The project in is a holding pattern awaiting supplies and time. Here is the deal... I think I might have mentioned this before but didn't go into too much detail so I will elaborate...

The tank is replacing a 90 gallon tank that has been set up i the front of my store for 2 years. This 90 gallon tank (seen in the photo below just after set-up 2 years ago) is up against a 9.5' wall. On the opposite side of this wall is a "kitchenette" which is a 9.5'x6'x9' room which has a countertop that is 6' long and has a double-sided stainless kitchen sink. This kitchen was an employee kitchen but we have an exact clone of this room next door in our other unit that we lease. I figured I'd give a little more privacy to our kitchen and also have a great tank room in the process! This room is perfect for all filtration and gadgets. I just cleaned out all the kitchen stuff today and set-up the other kitchen. Now I have to paint the walls and the floor and start building the filtration stand. This stand will hold a 65 gal (36x18x24) refugium, a 40 gal (36x18x18) frag tank and a strange glass sump that was a custom made tank (42x15x24) from a few years back. In addition to these 3 tanks there will be a section on the stand for a Euro-Reef RC 500 (recirculating skimmer), a calcium reactor set-up (not quite sure which one yet), a Nielsen Reactor. This room will also contain all lighting ballasts, UV Sterilizers and RODI water filters. The main tank will be driven by a ReeFlo Dart (as well as both closed loops under the tank itself, so 3 ReeFlo Darts), the frag tank and refugium will be driven by a Gen-X PCX 40 (I think... perhaps more flow?) and the skimmer will probably be driven by a Mag-12 (or comparable).

I ordered the lighting from PFO yesterday 4-400w XM 15Ks, 2 Dual 400w HQI Ballasts, 4 12" optimal reflectors with mogul sockets and 4 of their LED Moonlights designed to attach to the mogul bases. I also ordered an 18" DC actuator to raise and lower the lighting system as well as the vertically sliding canopy access door. The beauty of a 9' ceiling!!

Once the kitchen is painted and the stand constructed, I have to move all the rock and leftover corals (Hurricane Katrina was pretty mean) into the fuge/frag tanks so I can disassemble the 90 gallon, build the BIG stand and get everything else squared away!

Here is a pic of the 90 gallon after set-up...

90reef01.jpg


Maybe I will have some pics of the "ex-kitchen" tomorrow...

Take it easy!
 
Looking Good Sean, Are you in LA or TX. How long did your 90 go with out power?

Cant wait to see that lighting set-up. Keep us up to date, I am building a plywood tank in Feb. and you have already had my change my plans for the better a couple of times.

Thanks,

Leon
 
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