Billybeau1
Premium Member
Thats because you are a zeovit girl. 
There is nothing wrong with Tunze's 9.5 dkh alkalinity IMO.
There is nothing wrong with Tunze's 9.5 dkh alkalinity IMO.
A General Guide to Salt Mixes
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Billybeau1
Premium Member
Good deal double R
Randy, I didn't know you could do a thing like that. Is that safe? It sounds kind of nasty.
That depends on what you use and how cheap you want to be, but acids are generally pretty inexpensive even for good quality.
Concentrated hydrochloric acid (like is used in pools or to clean concrete) is about 12,000 meq/L in acidity. So 10 mL of this added to 100 liters of salt water will drop alkalinity by 120 meq/100 L = 1.2 meq/l or 3.4 dKH.
So 1 gallon of acid will drop 10,000 gallons of salt water by 3.4 dKH. consequently, you could start with any salt mix at 11 dKH and drop it to 7.6 dKH for a minimal cost, even if you buy a very pure grade of concentrated HCl. And since you are using so little, even a technical grade sold at a hardware store for $4 might be just fine.
The pH will instantly be a bit low, but aeration should bring it back to normal as CO2 is blown off.
That depends on what you use and how cheap you want to be, but acids are generally pretty inexpensive even for good quality.
Concentrated hydrochloric acid (like is used in pools or to clean concrete) is about 12,000 meq/L in acidity. So 10 mL of this added to 100 liters of salt water will drop alkalinity by 120 meq/100 L = 1.2 meq/l or 3.4 dKH.
So 1 gallon of acid will drop 10,000 gallons of salt water by 3.4 dKH. consequently, you could start with any salt mix at 11 dKH and drop it to 7.6 dKH for a minimal cost, even if you buy a very pure grade of concentrated HCl. And since you are using so little, even a technical grade sold at a hardware store for $4 might be just fine.
The pH will instantly be a bit low, but aeration should bring it back to normal as CO2 is blown off.
Canarygirl
New member
This is really interesting to me because it would allow me to choose from a much broader variety of salt mixes (and price points).
Would any chemical residues or by-products be leftover as a result of this reaction, or of the acid itself, that delicate SPS or marine fauna might react to? If you were going to try this in a reef (I wouldn't actually add the acid to my reef directly
), which acid would be the safest? I've heard that muriatic acid is poisonous, for example. Would hydrochloric acid be your choice?Edited to add...the acid I'm most comfortable using is acetic acid (vinegar). What do you think about that option?
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The only residue from hydrochloric acid added to seawater would be chloride (a tiny but compared to the 19,000 ppm already there in seawater) and whatever impurities were in the acid.
Acetic acid and all other organic acids will not work. They do not permanently deplete alkalinity. As soon as they are metabolized, the alkalinity comes back.
which acid would be the safest? I've heard that muriatic acid is poisonous, for example. Would hydrochloric acid be your choice?
Hydrochloric is muriatic, and it is not poisonous except that it is an acid. There is no other toxicity as all it is is H+ (the acid) and chloride in water. But if someone wanted to, sulfuric would also be fine, since it is H+ and sulfate, with 2,700 ppm of sulfate already in seawater.
Acetic acid and all other organic acids will not work. They do not permanently deplete alkalinity. As soon as they are metabolized, the alkalinity comes back.
which acid would be the safest? I've heard that muriatic acid is poisonous, for example. Would hydrochloric acid be your choice?
Hydrochloric is muriatic, and it is not poisonous except that it is an acid. There is no other toxicity as all it is is H+ (the acid) and chloride in water. But if someone wanted to, sulfuric would also be fine, since it is H+ and sulfate, with 2,700 ppm of sulfate already in seawater.
sly fox
Premium Member
does EDTA have any negative effect on the tank?
also how many salts use YPS (Yellow Prussiate of Soda), I read its has a side ingredient of a type of Cyanide, is that true and is it a significant enough quantit to cause difficulties in a tank?
are there still salt ixes to avoid due to high levels of heavy metals?
thanks
also how many salts use YPS (Yellow Prussiate of Soda), I read its has a side ingredient of a type of Cyanide, is that true and is it a significant enough quantit to cause difficulties in a tank?
are there still salt ixes to avoid due to high levels of heavy metals?
thanks
Yes, EDTA can bind and retain many metals (such as calcium and magnesium). If you added enough, you'd reduce the bioavailability of those. At lower concentrations, you may limit the availability of other metals (like iron, etc.)
are there still salt ixes to avoid due to high levels of heavy metals?
That's a whole debatable can of worms. There is no simple answer, IMO. I discuss it a bit here:
Reef Aquaria with Low Soluble Metals
http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2003-04/rhf/feature/index.php
are there still salt ixes to avoid due to high levels of heavy metals?
That's a whole debatable can of worms. There is no simple answer, IMO. I discuss it a bit here:
Reef Aquaria with Low Soluble Metals
http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2003-04/rhf/feature/index.php
Canarygirl
New member
This is a good question....I don't know the answer but would like to, as well as how dangerous it is over time (like does it accumulate)
That was the one chemical in my chemistry kit when I was a kid that said to never mix with acid. Of course, when I did so nothing apparently happened, so I was disappointed.
The salt maker is "mrgettanked" and he sells his product on ebay. Seems to be a reputable, very nice seller trying to contribute a quality product to the salt market.
As a follow up, does anyone have any reason to think any salt makers use EDTA these days? IO claims not to. Marketing that you mix contains none, when that might be the case for every mix seems less optimal, IMO.
If you are considering mrgettanked's mix, you might read this thread with him where there was discussion of elevated borate, which seems to concern zeovit users who want careful measurement of carbonate alkalinity:
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1268050
As a follow up, does anyone have any reason to think any salt makers use EDTA these days? IO claims not to. Marketing that you mix contains none, when that might be the case for every mix seems less optimal, IMO.
If you are considering mrgettanked's mix, you might read this thread with him where there was discussion of elevated borate, which seems to concern zeovit users who want careful measurement of carbonate alkalinity:
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1268050
Canarygirl
New member
Thanks for the link.
Here's what the Gettanked website says about their 10 dhk version of the salt mix:
I'm told that natural seawater has this same amount of borate in it, the 4.5 mg/liter. The Korallen-zucht salt "Reefer's Best" has the same amount of borate. I think that Seachem salts have higher levels than this. But I've used Seachem salts without any problems from the borate; you do need to know how to pro-rate the amount of usable alkalinity from the total alk though. (Sorry if I'm telling you stuff you already know...)
The NSW level of borate is supposed to help manage ph swings in the aquarium. That's why Seachem uses it as well.
Here's what the Gettanked website says about their 10 dhk version of the salt mix:
I'm told that natural seawater has this same amount of borate in it, the 4.5 mg/liter. The Korallen-zucht salt "Reefer's Best" has the same amount of borate. I think that Seachem salts have higher levels than this. But I've used Seachem salts without any problems from the borate; you do need to know how to pro-rate the amount of usable alkalinity from the total alk though. (Sorry if I'm telling you stuff you already know...)
The NSW level of borate is supposed to help manage ph swings in the aquarium. That's why Seachem uses it as well.
Well, there's a bit of confusion here, but perhaps gettanked has changed his formulation since Jonathan noted the elevated borate concentration, or perhaps folks are just getting units confused. gettanked seemed to be arguing that elevated borate was good in that thread, but he may have backed off.
Seawater has 4.5 ppm of boron (B), which would translate to about 33 ppm of borate ( B(OH)4- ) if it were all present as borate.
Seawater has 4.5 ppm of boron (B), which would translate to about 33 ppm of borate ( B(OH)4- ) if it were all present as borate.
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Canarygirl
New member
I'm confused too after reading the thread. I wonder if Gary at Gettanked meant to say 4.5 mg/liter of boron, not borate. 
The thing about borate accumulating in aquaria...do we know this as a fact? I remember asking about it on the Zeovit forum a long time ago and the response I got from a moderator was that it would not accumulate once the tank had 100% of the higher-borate saltwater in it. He said that with each water change you would remove as much borate as you would put back in with the new saltwater. Do you agree with that assessment?
The thing about borate accumulating in aquaria...do we know this as a fact? I remember asking about it on the Zeovit forum a long time ago and the response I got from a moderator was that it would not accumulate once the tank had 100% of the higher-borate saltwater in it. He said that with each water change you would remove as much borate as you would put back in with the new saltwater. Do you agree with that assessment?
There is little info on borate accumulation that I know of. It will only accumulate from alkalinity supplements that have borate in them, not from water changes with the same mix over time. The moderator was exactly right on that.
Ron Shimek's tank water study did not show it greatly elevated in any tanks (max, 2x NSW, min 0.5x NSW), but I do not know if any of his test tanks use boron-containing supplements.
Ron Shimek's tank water study did not show it greatly elevated in any tanks (max, 2x NSW, min 0.5x NSW), but I do not know if any of his test tanks use boron-containing supplements.
Billybeau1
Premium Member
Happy Halloween everyone.
stony_corals
New member
Interesting thread.....
I use a lot of salt, several buckets/month. I have been using Seachem's Reef Salt for the past couple of years. I've never had alkalinity and calcium levels that high with this salt. I've used Elos, and LaMotte's test kits. There were some rumors that there were some bad buckets of Seachem Reef salt with really high Ca levels. I haven't had one yet, but that doesn't mean anything... Some tanks are ZEO, and this is the main reason I use it. I know that there are a lot of ZEO users that use Seachem Reef Salt as the params are close to NSW levels (except the borate alkalinity). The highest alkalinity reading I've got was 8.5 dKH, and the highest calcium was 460ppm, fwiw.
Regarding the gettanked salt, it would be interesting to know if all these additives like anti-caking agents, EDTA, yellow prussate of soda are actually used in the salt manufacturing process. Seems like a big claim to make... but considering that he prices the salt at 160 gallons at 1.0264, versus IO which is likely 1.022, the price isn't really that high if things are inline....
I use a lot of salt, several buckets/month. I have been using Seachem's Reef Salt for the past couple of years. I've never had alkalinity and calcium levels that high with this salt. I've used Elos, and LaMotte's test kits. There were some rumors that there were some bad buckets of Seachem Reef salt with really high Ca levels. I haven't had one yet, but that doesn't mean anything... Some tanks are ZEO, and this is the main reason I use it. I know that there are a lot of ZEO users that use Seachem Reef Salt as the params are close to NSW levels (except the borate alkalinity). The highest alkalinity reading I've got was 8.5 dKH, and the highest calcium was 460ppm, fwiw.
Regarding the gettanked salt, it would be interesting to know if all these additives like anti-caking agents, EDTA, yellow prussate of soda are actually used in the salt manufacturing process. Seems like a big claim to make... but considering that he prices the salt at 160 gallons at 1.0264, versus IO which is likely 1.022, the price isn't really that high if things are inline....
Yes, it will shoot the pH way down, but aeration can bring it back to whatever equilibrium the CO2 level in your air and the final alkalinity dictate. Nothing else should be impacted.
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