A good reason to be leary of antibiotics....
- Thread starter "Umm fish?"
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stugray
Premium Member
"Umm fish?"
Premium Member
Okay, yikes Stu! I think I'm going to wear the gloves more often. Plus, if that last guy lives he's going to be so ****ed that the infection ruined his tattoo ( 
).
And even more reason for us not to force the selection of antibiotic resistant strains of these things. Five-drug-resistant strains of salmonella are nothing to play with....
).And even more reason for us not to force the selection of antibiotic resistant strains of these things. Five-drug-resistant strains of salmonella are nothing to play with....
stugray
Premium Member
I found that link by searching for instances of salmonella in SALT water fish tanks.
I'm not so sure you can get it in SW.
If salt cant kill salmonella, why can I make beef jerky and eat the (nearly) raw meat without getting sick?
I'm betting that salmonella cant live in SW, but I cant be sure from the searches.
( although if it CAN live in SW, that might explain a few bouts of nausea I have had in the last couple of years when noone else in the family was sick ).
As for the baby with the anaconda, thats bordering on child endangerment, and I'm not even talking about the possibility of spreading bad germs....
Stu
I'm not so sure you can get it in SW.
If salt cant kill salmonella, why can I make beef jerky and eat the (nearly) raw meat without getting sick?
I'm betting that salmonella cant live in SW, but I cant be sure from the searches.
( although if it CAN live in SW, that might explain a few bouts of nausea I have had in the last couple of years when noone else in the family was sick ).
As for the baby with the anaconda, thats bordering on child endangerment, and I'm not even talking about the possibility of spreading bad germs....
Stu
fishetcinc
New member
Just an observation on that NY Times article:
Technically, there are strains of aquatic and halophilic Salmonella bacterium out there (ie. can live in saltwater). However, these strains can only grow at seawater temperatures (60-85F). Human bodies are far too hostile (ie. too hot) at 98.6-100F to allow these particular strains of bacteria to grow and become infectious in people. Most likely, the halophilic Salmonella find their way into an open cut and die. The resulting inflamation is simply an immune reaction to the toxins left behind by the dead salmonella rotting inside the exposed cut. We all probably experienced this as a temporary inflamation of any open cuts after having serviced our tanks. The inflamation goes away as soon as our bodies finish absorbing the dead bacteria.
People who are immunocompromised or those with chronic liver disease can develop severe complications but this due to secondary infections by human-borne pathogens such as human specific salmonella strains found on the natural skin flora on the same open cuts. These strains cause the infection but it appears as if the tank was responsible for the infection since one can find traces of the dead halophilic bacterial DNA in the cut. The authors of such studies make the assumption that because bacterial DNA from aquatic salmonella is found in the cuts, aquatic Salmonella is the cause of the infection. This assumption is obviously flawed as pointed out above. The DNA could simply be from the already dead halophiles while the infection is being caused by regular non-aquarium related bacteria.
Also, it should be noted that antibiotic treatments do not "create" resistant bacteria. Bacterial populations naturally contain individuals that are resistant to certain drugs and these individuals will remain when the drug is used. After all, antibiotics are derived from toxins used by other organism to fight off bacteria so it makes sense that some bacteria have developed their own immunities. So antibiotic resistant bacteria are selected, not created. The normal genetic population make-up will return when the drug is no longer around to force selection of the resistant bacteria. So, antibiotic treatment is ok for short term use and benefitial to cure disease in the short term. Its only long term use that should be avoided. A blanket statement that all antiobiotic treatments should be avoided would be imprudent.
K.
Technically, there are strains of aquatic and halophilic Salmonella bacterium out there (ie. can live in saltwater). However, these strains can only grow at seawater temperatures (60-85F). Human bodies are far too hostile (ie. too hot) at 98.6-100F to allow these particular strains of bacteria to grow and become infectious in people. Most likely, the halophilic Salmonella find their way into an open cut and die. The resulting inflamation is simply an immune reaction to the toxins left behind by the dead salmonella rotting inside the exposed cut. We all probably experienced this as a temporary inflamation of any open cuts after having serviced our tanks. The inflamation goes away as soon as our bodies finish absorbing the dead bacteria.
People who are immunocompromised or those with chronic liver disease can develop severe complications but this due to secondary infections by human-borne pathogens such as human specific salmonella strains found on the natural skin flora on the same open cuts. These strains cause the infection but it appears as if the tank was responsible for the infection since one can find traces of the dead halophilic bacterial DNA in the cut. The authors of such studies make the assumption that because bacterial DNA from aquatic salmonella is found in the cuts, aquatic Salmonella is the cause of the infection. This assumption is obviously flawed as pointed out above. The DNA could simply be from the already dead halophiles while the infection is being caused by regular non-aquarium related bacteria.
Also, it should be noted that antibiotic treatments do not "create" resistant bacteria. Bacterial populations naturally contain individuals that are resistant to certain drugs and these individuals will remain when the drug is used. After all, antibiotics are derived from toxins used by other organism to fight off bacteria so it makes sense that some bacteria have developed their own immunities. So antibiotic resistant bacteria are selected, not created. The normal genetic population make-up will return when the drug is no longer around to force selection of the resistant bacteria. So, antibiotic treatment is ok for short term use and benefitial to cure disease in the short term. Its only long term use that should be avoided. A blanket statement that all antiobiotic treatments should be avoided would be imprudent.
K.
"Umm fish?"
Premium Member
Interesting info. I didn't realize at all about the different Salmonella strains.
And, you are exactly right K.
As I said:
And yet you see the policies on some internet importers' (and farmers') sites. I am paraphrasing here, but many talk about routine antibiotic and intercepter treatments of their QT facilities. If those treatments do not kill 100% of the bacterial and copepod populations that they are targeting, they are in fact exerting selection pressures toward resistant strains. That's what worries me.
The same thing _can_ happen in our tanks, it's just not anywhere close to as likely or problematic. Mutation in any one bacteria is just as likely as in any other. It's just not as likely a) that we will select as aggressively for the mutation in our homes and b) that it will matter as much since the livestock in our homes is not likely to be widely distributed.
I've never said don't use drugs. I would just like people to accept the gravity of the situation when you do use drugs and if they start a course of antibiotics, to not stop in the middle (i.e., if you're going to try to kill the buggers, kill all the buggers).
And, you are exactly right K.
As I said:
And yet you see the policies on some internet importers' (and farmers') sites. I am paraphrasing here, but many talk about routine antibiotic and intercepter treatments of their QT facilities. If those treatments do not kill 100% of the bacterial and copepod populations that they are targeting, they are in fact exerting selection pressures toward resistant strains. That's what worries me.
The same thing _can_ happen in our tanks, it's just not anywhere close to as likely or problematic. Mutation in any one bacteria is just as likely as in any other. It's just not as likely a) that we will select as aggressively for the mutation in our homes and b) that it will matter as much since the livestock in our homes is not likely to be widely distributed.
I've never said don't use drugs. I would just like people to accept the gravity of the situation when you do use drugs and if they start a course of antibiotics, to not stop in the middle (i.e., if you're going to try to kill the buggers, kill all the buggers).
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