A pair of EcoWheel tanks in the making
- Thread starter Putawaywet
- Start date
My thanks to everyone for all the positive compliments - It's nice to know that my peers are so accepting of my OCD style of reefing 
NicoleC,
I ordered the casting resin from MicroMark. It's a 1-1 mix and has very little smell so you can actually use it indoors if you needed to. Takes about 15 minutes to set and 24 hours to cure. One cured it can be carved, sanded, painted etc.
http://www.ares-server.com/Ares/Are...ction=Catalog&Type=Department&ID=64&Offset=10
I'm not sure what your plan is for the actual fabrication, but the resin is relative durable out to about 1/4". But, not sure how it would hold up with a large surface area at the size. Prob better to use some kind of backing and then add the resin to that for support.
FWIW, prior to deciding on the piling I kicked around the idea of covering the interior walls of my tank with simulated rockwork.
The general plan was going to be to obtain some sheets of insulation foam from my local Home Depot (although the spray can stuff will prob work once it's dry) and glue it to some sheets of acrylic cut to fit inside the tank. Then, I was just going to carve and grind on the foam until I had all the contours and shapes that I wanted. After that I figurerd a few good coats of fiberglass would give it a nice durable outer shell.
You could prob even press sm. peices of rock into the resin before it set since a few months down the road it will look like all the rest in your tank.
Once everything was finshed I was going to just silicone the panels to the inside of my tank.
Also, there are some other types of epoxies out there (Zoopoxy?? or something like that) that do a really good job of simulating rock texture. I had a custom vivarium built last year and the guy used something similar to this over fiberglass cloth that was shaped into rockwork. With a little paint it pretty much looks like gray granite. The viv on the "latest projects" section of his website is what I ordered if you care to see what effects can be done using epoxy.
http://www.angelfire.com/oh3/customecos/
I asked about sending my foam to him after I had it shaped so he could coat and texture the hardshell and he said he could easily do that for a few hundred bucks. Had I continued with that project more than likely that would have been the approach I would have taken.
Lastly, a lot of the terrarium folks have been experimenting with building fake rockwork inside glass tanks and are using various techniques and materials. The most popular seems to be carving foam and then coating that with either grout or concrete. Although, I imagine substituting epoxy/fiberglass and then sprinkling on sand or crushed coral would look relatively decent.
HTH's
Brett
NicoleC,
I ordered the casting resin from MicroMark. It's a 1-1 mix and has very little smell so you can actually use it indoors if you needed to. Takes about 15 minutes to set and 24 hours to cure. One cured it can be carved, sanded, painted etc.
http://www.ares-server.com/Ares/Are...ction=Catalog&Type=Department&ID=64&Offset=10
I'm not sure what your plan is for the actual fabrication, but the resin is relative durable out to about 1/4". But, not sure how it would hold up with a large surface area at the size. Prob better to use some kind of backing and then add the resin to that for support.
FWIW, prior to deciding on the piling I kicked around the idea of covering the interior walls of my tank with simulated rockwork.
The general plan was going to be to obtain some sheets of insulation foam from my local Home Depot (although the spray can stuff will prob work once it's dry) and glue it to some sheets of acrylic cut to fit inside the tank. Then, I was just going to carve and grind on the foam until I had all the contours and shapes that I wanted. After that I figurerd a few good coats of fiberglass would give it a nice durable outer shell.
You could prob even press sm. peices of rock into the resin before it set since a few months down the road it will look like all the rest in your tank.
Once everything was finshed I was going to just silicone the panels to the inside of my tank.
Also, there are some other types of epoxies out there (Zoopoxy?? or something like that) that do a really good job of simulating rock texture. I had a custom vivarium built last year and the guy used something similar to this over fiberglass cloth that was shaped into rockwork. With a little paint it pretty much looks like gray granite. The viv on the "latest projects" section of his website is what I ordered if you care to see what effects can be done using epoxy.
http://www.angelfire.com/oh3/customecos/
I asked about sending my foam to him after I had it shaped so he could coat and texture the hardshell and he said he could easily do that for a few hundred bucks. Had I continued with that project more than likely that would have been the approach I would have taken.
Lastly, a lot of the terrarium folks have been experimenting with building fake rockwork inside glass tanks and are using various techniques and materials. The most popular seems to be carving foam and then coating that with either grout or concrete. Although, I imagine substituting epoxy/fiberglass and then sprinkling on sand or crushed coral would look relatively decent.
HTH's
Brett
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Hi
You can keep the foam from floating by either attaching it to the glass or an object(inert of course) that will overcome the bouyancy. You can coat it with acrylic paint and press rocks shells or whatever into as it cures..Personally i don't think marine epoxy paint is necessary but it would protect it from boring animals.
Brett, Thanks for those sites.You know where all the cool places are lol
Gary
You can keep the foam from floating by either attaching it to the glass or an object(inert of course) that will overcome the bouyancy. You can coat it with acrylic paint and press rocks shells or whatever into as it cures..Personally i don't think marine epoxy paint is necessary but it would protect it from boring animals.
Brett, Thanks for those sites.You know where all the cool places are lol
Gary
I am in the process of setting up my first marine tank. I have been doing freshwater fish and later planted for 30+ years. We are remodeling a new home and I have room for a large tank and my wife finally convinced me to go to salt. I just recently joined Reef Central to learn a little more about it and started reading this thread because I am interested in the Eco-Wheel.
If someone had told me that they were going to set up a tank using a couple of fake piers tied together with a large rope I would have said "sounds nice" but thought they were nuts. However, every now and then you run across someone who has the talent to take an unusual idea and make it work. Even more infrequently you find someone who can do that and has the artistic ability to make it look great as well.
Brett, you are way beyond that. This is really incredible. I have been to many public quariums and rarely have I seen exhibits that even come close to the quality of your home tank. It's just awesome. Wish I had 1/10th your talent and artistic ability. Just incredible.
Regarding the Eco-Wheel:
I am having trouble reaching anyone with the company. From what i have seen here and in my searches on the web the largest model they make is for a 300 gallon tank. How do you go about buying one for a much bigger tank?
I have several questions about your experiences with this filter. Some of them may be kind of basic stuff for you experienced hands (remember I am a salt novice) but I am concerned about your comments regarding shifting this thread to another one when you slightly shifted the focus to your 90 gallon setup. I'm new here and not familiar with what's acceptable. So I don't want start my first post upsetting anyone, not to mention cluttering this great thread with what some might consider a bunch of newbie stuff. Post, e-mail or PM?
Thanks again for the thread. And the pictures of your tank are incredible!
Charles
If someone had told me that they were going to set up a tank using a couple of fake piers tied together with a large rope I would have said "sounds nice" but thought they were nuts. However, every now and then you run across someone who has the talent to take an unusual idea and make it work. Even more infrequently you find someone who can do that and has the artistic ability to make it look great as well.
Brett, you are way beyond that. This is really incredible. I have been to many public quariums and rarely have I seen exhibits that even come close to the quality of your home tank. It's just awesome. Wish I had 1/10th your talent and artistic ability. Just incredible.
Regarding the Eco-Wheel:
I am having trouble reaching anyone with the company. From what i have seen here and in my searches on the web the largest model they make is for a 300 gallon tank. How do you go about buying one for a much bigger tank?
I have several questions about your experiences with this filter. Some of them may be kind of basic stuff for you experienced hands (remember I am a salt novice) but I am concerned about your comments regarding shifting this thread to another one when you slightly shifted the focus to your 90 gallon setup. I'm new here and not familiar with what's acceptable. So I don't want start my first post upsetting anyone, not to mention cluttering this great thread with what some might consider a bunch of newbie stuff. Post, e-mail or PM?
Thanks again for the thread. And the pictures of your tank are incredible!
Charles
Geez Charles.... I need to keep you around for a while... you're doing wonders for my ego 
But my swelled head aside, I really started this thread to try and spotlight the EcoWheel system because so many people had never seen one in action. Also, when I first considered setting one up I had great difficulties in finding any unbiased info or anyone that could answer my questions about real time or long time use. So I figured, what the heck, perhaps someone will benefit from my experience.
It was never my intentions to try and "inspire" or "dazzle" anyone with my abilities. (ok, perhaps just a little with the pier piling tank) I guess if that was a side effect then that's cool too. In all honesty, this project just kind of took on a life of it's own and just sort of "evolved" over the past year. In my wildest dreams I don't think I could have ever imagined how far I've come in just 16 short months.
I think one of the reason's why I have enjoyed doing a thread like this is because I cut my teeth in this hobby back in the day when the only available info was from outdated books and you spent a lot of frustration and money figuring things out for yourself. So much of both in fact that I almost don't want to think about it. So, if this thread actually helps anyone out and saves them a little of both then it's definitely worth all the time and effort
And yes, you're not the first person to report difficulties reaching A.E. ....and while I've tried defending Chris by explaining that he's pretty close to a one man show and that he spends a lot of time out on the road, I seriously believe that he needs to get his act together if he ever intends to market this system in a more mainstream forum. It really boils down to simple business practices.... no matter how good your product may be, you'll go nowhere fast if you have no customer support behind it.
Actually, the issues with A.E. do seem rather bass ackwards to me. Normally, a company is crawling all over you when they think you are willing to buy, but then can't be bothered with you once your money is in the bank. A.E. seems to be just the opposite - always eager to respond to any questions or concerns that I had while setting everything up, even checking in with me periodically to see how things are progressing. But return an email from a perspective cusomer? Well, that's something he definitely needs to work on.
With that said, AFAIK the upper limit on home setups is 300gals. Although, they can engineer a custom setup to any size tank if you want to go big. However, I suspect you would need to go really big (like 4 digit gallonage as a minimum) before they would consider that alternative. In lieu of that, my guess is they would just reccomend a second filter for something like a 500 or 600 gal tank which would just drive the cost right thru the roof. The price for one filter is ok when compared to the cost savings on what you aren't buying for a more conventional setup. But 2 EcoWheels? That's a tough cookie to choke down. Then again, what would the cash outlay be for setting up top end 600 gal SPS tank? If you figure $600-800 for a skimmer, multiple big pumps for closed loops, a large custom sump, refugium, chiller, etc., and the electricity to run all of that stuff perhaps it might still be cost effective.
I imagine if you were thinking of a tank of that size you could always go with one filter and then add a sump and a skimmer and a few Tunze Streams, but that does seem to defeat the whole idea of the EcoWheel. Personally, if it were me and I was going to do a "big" tank I think I would start kicking around some designs of my own that incorporated an airlift and some kind of ATS filter before I would drop the coin for 2 EcoWheels. Then again, who knows what I'll really do if I get another wild hair up my rear. I never though I'd actually own one of these things so I'm learning to never say never.
Beyond that, feel free to ask all the questions right here on this thread and I will try and answer them to the best of my ability.
Regards,
Brett
But my swelled head aside, I really started this thread to try and spotlight the EcoWheel system because so many people had never seen one in action. Also, when I first considered setting one up I had great difficulties in finding any unbiased info or anyone that could answer my questions about real time or long time use. So I figured, what the heck, perhaps someone will benefit from my experience.
It was never my intentions to try and "inspire" or "dazzle" anyone with my abilities. (ok, perhaps just a little with the pier piling tank) I guess if that was a side effect then that's cool too. In all honesty, this project just kind of took on a life of it's own and just sort of "evolved" over the past year. In my wildest dreams I don't think I could have ever imagined how far I've come in just 16 short months.
I think one of the reason's why I have enjoyed doing a thread like this is because I cut my teeth in this hobby back in the day when the only available info was from outdated books and you spent a lot of frustration and money figuring things out for yourself. So much of both in fact that I almost don't want to think about it. So, if this thread actually helps anyone out and saves them a little of both then it's definitely worth all the time and effort
And yes, you're not the first person to report difficulties reaching A.E. ....and while I've tried defending Chris by explaining that he's pretty close to a one man show and that he spends a lot of time out on the road, I seriously believe that he needs to get his act together if he ever intends to market this system in a more mainstream forum. It really boils down to simple business practices.... no matter how good your product may be, you'll go nowhere fast if you have no customer support behind it.
Actually, the issues with A.E. do seem rather bass ackwards to me. Normally, a company is crawling all over you when they think you are willing to buy, but then can't be bothered with you once your money is in the bank. A.E. seems to be just the opposite - always eager to respond to any questions or concerns that I had while setting everything up, even checking in with me periodically to see how things are progressing. But return an email from a perspective cusomer? Well, that's something he definitely needs to work on.
With that said, AFAIK the upper limit on home setups is 300gals. Although, they can engineer a custom setup to any size tank if you want to go big. However, I suspect you would need to go really big (like 4 digit gallonage as a minimum) before they would consider that alternative. In lieu of that, my guess is they would just reccomend a second filter for something like a 500 or 600 gal tank which would just drive the cost right thru the roof. The price for one filter is ok when compared to the cost savings on what you aren't buying for a more conventional setup. But 2 EcoWheels? That's a tough cookie to choke down. Then again, what would the cash outlay be for setting up top end 600 gal SPS tank? If you figure $600-800 for a skimmer, multiple big pumps for closed loops, a large custom sump, refugium, chiller, etc., and the electricity to run all of that stuff perhaps it might still be cost effective.
I imagine if you were thinking of a tank of that size you could always go with one filter and then add a sump and a skimmer and a few Tunze Streams, but that does seem to defeat the whole idea of the EcoWheel. Personally, if it were me and I was going to do a "big" tank I think I would start kicking around some designs of my own that incorporated an airlift and some kind of ATS filter before I would drop the coin for 2 EcoWheels. Then again, who knows what I'll really do if I get another wild hair up my rear. I never though I'd actually own one of these things so I'm learning to never say never.
Beyond that, feel free to ask all the questions right here on this thread and I will try and answer them to the best of my ability.
Regards,
Brett
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Regarding the comments - I aim to please. But seriously, they were sincere. You do incredible work both in and out of the tanks. Just face it, the inside of your cabinet looks as good or better than the outside of most.
I really think you have succeeded with your objectives on this thread. At least you have most certainly have with me, and it appears from other comments with everyone else too.
I am pretty sold on the Eco-Wheel but like you said, their business practices leave a lot to be desired. I used to run a small manufacturing business (wish all the guys I had working for me were as meticulous as you) and understand how hard it can be when you are pretty much the main parrt of the show. What Chris (is that his name?) is doing is making me think about trying it for myself or trying another product. Actually he is kind of forcing me in that direction.
I recently purchased a house and am in the process of remodeling it. There is a place for a tank and my wife convinced me to go salt instead of the freshwater planted I have done for many, many moons. After reading the Ultimate Aquarium and noting how almost to the person the owners said they wished their tanks were bigger (even the guy at the aquarium who could scuba dive in his), my vision grew. Fortunately there is room for fairly big tank and a room next to it for the rest of the stuff. I can even go downstairs to a basement or through an exterior wall if I have to go to a modified Berlin system (really, really do not want to do this). My problem is the contractor needs to have a layout for the room next to the tank. This is hard to do without the some help from the people who make the filter. It is starting to hold up construction. Talk about a rock and a hard place.
The plan has grown from around 350-400 gallons up to around 1000-1100 gallons on the low end. I have the room to go to around 1800-1900 if I get the height up to 4.5 feet and increase the length. I am concerned about working on something over 3-3.5 feet tall and 4-4.5 feet deep (front to back - hope I am using deep and tall correctly). I have room to go perhaps 5 feet deep and 6 feet tall if I recess the lights and around 15 feet long (yes it is a good size room). I know that once it's built in I will not redo it to make it any bigger; sort of now or never. My current thought is 12' (long) x 4.5' (front to back) x 3-3.5' (tall) set up as a lagoon to reef's edge environment with a small patch reef or two out in the middle. (I just started reading about salt a couple of weeks ago - I hope I have the terms right) I have done plants and it seems that the front to back and height dimensions would allow a lot of flexibility in design - a couple of swim through caves (small and one good sized), an arch or two, a couple of mounds out in the middle growing up to or near the surface. My hope is to have plently of room for corals to really grow out, plenty of room for a couple of schools of small fish to school in and around the various rock/coral structures, and the scale of small fish against the rock structures giving the illusion of a much larger patch of lagoon. It will be set up with one side and end open to the main room and the other long side open to the equipment room. Hopefully I'll end up with a lot of good viewing angles in both rooms. Looking forward to long periods of stress reduction viewing.
This brings up one of my concerns that I was going to post about in another area but I am not sure where. Is it tough to work on something that tall and deep or do people mostly do this for fish only tanks? Will I have to get in it for the corals? I'm leaning heavily in the DSB direction because of my planted freshwater experience but because of all the re-planting and trimming that is required for FW plants I would never think about anything over 30 inches or so tall and about the same to maybe 3 feet deep. I see a lot of salt tanks that are really tall. How do they work on them? Please do not go into it here (way off topic) but if anyone has an idea where this should go or wants to PM me I would appreciate the input.
Regarding my questions about your tank and the Eco-Wheel, just remember you asked for it. Okay, here goes.
DSBs and Feeding:
I recall seeing a few postings where you briefly mentioned DSB's with what I took to be a not too favorable point of view. My first thought would be that any additional natural filtration and processing of waste (completing the cycle sort of thing) would be beneficial. Particularly if it meant the creation of a large bed of natural food. I also recall that you are adding food to the tank. Do you think that a DSB and/or refugium might be capable of producing anough natural food that the tank would not require auxilliary feeding? Like you I get busy and sometimes do not have the time or want to go somewhere for a vacation. I know in freshwater you can leave one alone for a week or so (heavily fed just before of course) without any harm. I am sure that salt water fish are similarly capable of feast/famine (long as it is only occasionally) but I have not seen anything comparable about corals and some of the other critters. The tank needs to be able to run itself for a while. I either need it to self feed or have an auto feeder. It sounds like the Eco-Wheel is doing a lot of this, I just wonder how much and is it enough? Other postings I have seen indicate a refugium would need to be at least 25-30% of the size of the display tank to be capable of providing enough natural food for corals and fish. Any idea how much the Eco-Wheel is adding and how much more one would need to be self-sufficient?
You also hinted at a change in the salt and pepper sand bed. Have you seen Ron Shimek's articles (Ask Dr. Ron) on DSB's and sand size? Inland Aquatics also seems to advocate something similar (a mix of various grain sizes) but I guess they are doing the DSB thing too.
Water Changes and Color:
Are you doing the water changes to get the typical ATS filter color out, for export of bad stuff, or a little of both? I know carbon is not a good idea re: removing essential nutrients but in their first reef book Delbeek and Splung mentioned that a bag of GAC under a rock next to an air stone would keep the color clear without much nutrient removal. Do you find the need for something extra with the Eco-Wheel?
Mechanical and Other Filtration:
Are you doing any additional mechanical filtration at all? Also, you nmoted a buld up of detritus in the Eco-Wheel. I would normally think that leaving the detritus in the filter long term is not the best idea. If there isn't some critter or bacteria working on it isn't that stuff just adding undesirable checmicals back into the tank?
Water Circulation:
Do you find the flow rate (1200 gph) enough? I noted that you have modified the air lift but there was no mention of the increase in flow, just that it did. I sort of feel like it would be nice to have an occasional "storm" to stir things up, clean junk off stuff it shouldn't be on and move it to the filter. Not thinking about a hurricane simulation, just a little extra turbulence. Seens like it would help a lot. I also wonder about getting sufficient circulation in a tank as big as I am planning. I guess that mulitple air lifts with multiple inflows and overflows around the tank would help or alleviate this. Kind of hard to know for sure without help from AE. Whatever I do it will be with some sort of "pump" that is not harmful to all that stuff I want growing in there. Do you have any plans for extra water circulation or surge devices?
Probes and Controllers:
I kind of like the idea of not controlling everything but as I mentioned beore I get busy. And it seems to me that the goal of products like the Eco-Wheel is moving towards a self-sustaining system. Bourneman's boook about corals mentions on the inside back cover he has a 500 gallon closed system without water changes. There are some thing that need to be done daily and occasionally they won't. I am primarily thinking of Kalkwasser for top up, any nutrient dosing, auto feeding, and perhaps auto water changes. There is also temperature and lighting control. If I get something to handle all of that, a couple more probes and I could have the "brains" watch for problems and bring them to my attention. Perhaps I could start looking for something bad before it gets too far out of hand. Being a newbie to salt I am sure I have a learning curve ahead of me and could use all the help I can get. Also remeber that I am used to keeping plants that cost 25-50 cents each that I can grow to double size within a few weeks. I've checked prices on some of therse corals. Wow! I could have filled a tank this size with plants for what a couple of those little finger sized frags cost. But they do look good!!!
Maintenance:
You mentioned in your tear down that there was a scratch or two on the bearings of the wheel. Can you service them? Is there anything besides algae removal, changing burnt out bulbs and keeping critters out of the flow path required to keep this filter working correctly?
Regarding the hand held power washer/vacuum, I have often thought of one ot these too. The pull out shelf idea is a good one. I will remember that.
Well thanks for looking at this. And thank you very much for your postings on this topic. It has been a great help.
BTW - do you do any setup work on the outside? PM me if you would think about it.
I wish AE was a little more on the ball. Maybe he needs a partner to handle this end of it.
Thanks again!
Charles
But seriously, they were sincere. You do incredible work both in and out of the tanks. Just face it, the inside of your cabinet looks as good or better than the outside of most.I really think you have succeeded with your objectives on this thread. At least you have most certainly have with me, and it appears from other comments with everyone else too.
I am pretty sold on the Eco-Wheel but like you said, their business practices leave a lot to be desired. I used to run a small manufacturing business (wish all the guys I had working for me were as meticulous as you) and understand how hard it can be when you are pretty much the main parrt of the show. What Chris (is that his name?) is doing is making me think about trying it for myself or trying another product. Actually he is kind of forcing me in that direction.
I recently purchased a house and am in the process of remodeling it. There is a place for a tank and my wife convinced me to go salt instead of the freshwater planted I have done for many, many moons. After reading the Ultimate Aquarium and noting how almost to the person the owners said they wished their tanks were bigger (even the guy at the aquarium who could scuba dive in his), my vision grew. Fortunately there is room for fairly big tank and a room next to it for the rest of the stuff. I can even go downstairs to a basement or through an exterior wall if I have to go to a modified Berlin system (really, really do not want to do this). My problem is the contractor needs to have a layout for the room next to the tank. This is hard to do without the some help from the people who make the filter. It is starting to hold up construction. Talk about a rock and a hard place.
The plan has grown from around 350-400 gallons up to around 1000-1100 gallons on the low end. I have the room to go to around 1800-1900 if I get the height up to 4.5 feet and increase the length. I am concerned about working on something over 3-3.5 feet tall and 4-4.5 feet deep (front to back - hope I am using deep and tall correctly). I have room to go perhaps 5 feet deep and 6 feet tall if I recess the lights and around 15 feet long (yes it is a good size room). I know that once it's built in I will not redo it to make it any bigger; sort of now or never. My current thought is 12' (long) x 4.5' (front to back) x 3-3.5' (tall) set up as a lagoon to reef's edge environment with a small patch reef or two out in the middle. (I just started reading about salt a couple of weeks ago - I hope I have the terms right) I have done plants and it seems that the front to back and height dimensions would allow a lot of flexibility in design - a couple of swim through caves (small and one good sized), an arch or two, a couple of mounds out in the middle growing up to or near the surface. My hope is to have plently of room for corals to really grow out, plenty of room for a couple of schools of small fish to school in and around the various rock/coral structures, and the scale of small fish against the rock structures giving the illusion of a much larger patch of lagoon. It will be set up with one side and end open to the main room and the other long side open to the equipment room. Hopefully I'll end up with a lot of good viewing angles in both rooms. Looking forward to long periods of stress reduction viewing.
This brings up one of my concerns that I was going to post about in another area but I am not sure where. Is it tough to work on something that tall and deep or do people mostly do this for fish only tanks? Will I have to get in it for the corals? I'm leaning heavily in the DSB direction because of my planted freshwater experience but because of all the re-planting and trimming that is required for FW plants I would never think about anything over 30 inches or so tall and about the same to maybe 3 feet deep. I see a lot of salt tanks that are really tall. How do they work on them? Please do not go into it here (way off topic) but if anyone has an idea where this should go or wants to PM me I would appreciate the input.
Regarding my questions about your tank and the Eco-Wheel, just remember you asked for it. Okay, here goes.
DSBs and Feeding:
I recall seeing a few postings where you briefly mentioned DSB's with what I took to be a not too favorable point of view. My first thought would be that any additional natural filtration and processing of waste (completing the cycle sort of thing) would be beneficial. Particularly if it meant the creation of a large bed of natural food. I also recall that you are adding food to the tank. Do you think that a DSB and/or refugium might be capable of producing anough natural food that the tank would not require auxilliary feeding? Like you I get busy and sometimes do not have the time or want to go somewhere for a vacation. I know in freshwater you can leave one alone for a week or so (heavily fed just before of course) without any harm. I am sure that salt water fish are similarly capable of feast/famine (long as it is only occasionally) but I have not seen anything comparable about corals and some of the other critters. The tank needs to be able to run itself for a while. I either need it to self feed or have an auto feeder. It sounds like the Eco-Wheel is doing a lot of this, I just wonder how much and is it enough? Other postings I have seen indicate a refugium would need to be at least 25-30% of the size of the display tank to be capable of providing enough natural food for corals and fish. Any idea how much the Eco-Wheel is adding and how much more one would need to be self-sufficient?
You also hinted at a change in the salt and pepper sand bed. Have you seen Ron Shimek's articles (Ask Dr. Ron) on DSB's and sand size? Inland Aquatics also seems to advocate something similar (a mix of various grain sizes) but I guess they are doing the DSB thing too.
Water Changes and Color:
Are you doing the water changes to get the typical ATS filter color out, for export of bad stuff, or a little of both? I know carbon is not a good idea re: removing essential nutrients but in their first reef book Delbeek and Splung mentioned that a bag of GAC under a rock next to an air stone would keep the color clear without much nutrient removal. Do you find the need for something extra with the Eco-Wheel?
Mechanical and Other Filtration:
Are you doing any additional mechanical filtration at all? Also, you nmoted a buld up of detritus in the Eco-Wheel. I would normally think that leaving the detritus in the filter long term is not the best idea. If there isn't some critter or bacteria working on it isn't that stuff just adding undesirable checmicals back into the tank?
Water Circulation:
Do you find the flow rate (1200 gph) enough? I noted that you have modified the air lift but there was no mention of the increase in flow, just that it did. I sort of feel like it would be nice to have an occasional "storm" to stir things up, clean junk off stuff it shouldn't be on and move it to the filter. Not thinking about a hurricane simulation, just a little extra turbulence. Seens like it would help a lot. I also wonder about getting sufficient circulation in a tank as big as I am planning. I guess that mulitple air lifts with multiple inflows and overflows around the tank would help or alleviate this. Kind of hard to know for sure without help from AE. Whatever I do it will be with some sort of "pump" that is not harmful to all that stuff I want growing in there. Do you have any plans for extra water circulation or surge devices?
Probes and Controllers:
I kind of like the idea of not controlling everything but as I mentioned beore I get busy. And it seems to me that the goal of products like the Eco-Wheel is moving towards a self-sustaining system. Bourneman's boook about corals mentions on the inside back cover he has a 500 gallon closed system without water changes. There are some thing that need to be done daily and occasionally they won't. I am primarily thinking of Kalkwasser for top up, any nutrient dosing, auto feeding, and perhaps auto water changes. There is also temperature and lighting control. If I get something to handle all of that, a couple more probes and I could have the "brains" watch for problems and bring them to my attention. Perhaps I could start looking for something bad before it gets too far out of hand. Being a newbie to salt I am sure I have a learning curve ahead of me and could use all the help I can get. Also remeber that I am used to keeping plants that cost 25-50 cents each that I can grow to double size within a few weeks. I've checked prices on some of therse corals. Wow! I could have filled a tank this size with plants for what a couple of those little finger sized frags cost. But they do look good!!!
Maintenance:
You mentioned in your tear down that there was a scratch or two on the bearings of the wheel. Can you service them? Is there anything besides algae removal, changing burnt out bulbs and keeping critters out of the flow path required to keep this filter working correctly?
Regarding the hand held power washer/vacuum, I have often thought of one ot these too. The pull out shelf idea is a good one. I will remember that.
Well thanks for looking at this. And thank you very much for your postings on this topic. It has been a great help.
BTW - do you do any setup work on the outside? PM me if you would think about it.
I wish AE was a little more on the ball. Maybe he needs a partner to handle this end of it.
Thanks again!
Charles
Brett, If I may chime in...
Hi Charles,
Nice to see you are doing your homework first. I wonder, too about the ecowheel having enough flow for a tank as large as you propose.
I talked to Chris when he first started up the comapny, and he was prototyping algae wheels built with huge cable spools for waste treatment ponds. You may need something like this, or at minimum, several wheels along the length of the tank.
You could DIY the wheels fairly easily, IMO.
Wih minimal flow, I'd go bare bottom. This will keep the tank cleaner in the long run.
Have you figured out evaporation rates and how to deal with them? Also lighting that much tank will take some serious power, add heat, etc.
Also, I personally would hate to service a tank that size. I have built many a special tool for public aquarists to service large displays, and its never easy. (Beautiful, yes, but a pain to maintain)
Just throwing some more food for thought out there for you.
Sounds like a great project.
Chris
Hi Charles,
Nice to see you are doing your homework first. I wonder, too about the ecowheel having enough flow for a tank as large as you propose.
I talked to Chris when he first started up the comapny, and he was prototyping algae wheels built with huge cable spools for waste treatment ponds. You may need something like this, or at minimum, several wheels along the length of the tank.
You could DIY the wheels fairly easily, IMO.
Wih minimal flow, I'd go bare bottom. This will keep the tank cleaner in the long run.
Have you figured out evaporation rates and how to deal with them? Also lighting that much tank will take some serious power, add heat, etc.
Also, I personally would hate to service a tank that size. I have built many a special tool for public aquarists to service large displays, and its never easy. (Beautiful, yes, but a pain to maintain)
Just throwing some more food for thought out there for you.
Sounds like a great project.
Chris
I bought my Ecowheel in 2001, I would have to be the only person in Australia running one.
At the beginning of this year I had a few problems with the air lift ( mainly the linear air pump). After a few non replies to emails sent to Aquatic Engineers, I finally tried ringing eventually I got in touch with Chris Limcaco, who told me he sold the Aquarium side of the business (AE) to another company, he now only deals in waste treatment, the web site is http://www.algaewheel.com/. I have to say he is till very helpful, even though it is no longer his business.
With regards to the yellowing of the water mentioned above, I would have to say while there might be some discolouration in the water, this is no more (in fact less) than I have seen in conventional setups. Discolouration in tank water will happen in any aged tank.
One of the main points you need to remember with scrubbers is, the algae should be harvested regularly and often.
At the beginning of this year I had a few problems with the air lift ( mainly the linear air pump). After a few non replies to emails sent to Aquatic Engineers, I finally tried ringing eventually I got in touch with Chris Limcaco, who told me he sold the Aquarium side of the business (AE) to another company, he now only deals in waste treatment, the web site is http://www.algaewheel.com/. I have to say he is till very helpful, even though it is no longer his business.
With regards to the yellowing of the water mentioned above, I would have to say while there might be some discolouration in the water, this is no more (in fact less) than I have seen in conventional setups. Discolouration in tank water will happen in any aged tank.
One of the main points you need to remember with scrubbers is, the algae should be harvested regularly and often.
Caevan wrote
Sorry about formatting - still trying to figure this out:
>I got in touch with Chris Limcaco, who told me he sold the
>Aquarium side of the business (AE) to another company, he now
>only deals in waste treatment, the web site is >[url]http://www.algaewheel.com/.[/url] I have to say he is till very
>helpful, even though it is no longer his business.
Thanks a bunch. I'll try to reach them tomorrow.
Chris wrote
>Nice to see you are doing your homework first. I wonder, too
>about the ecowheel having enough flow for a tank as large as
>you propose.
It's only a matter of scale.
>I talked to Chris when he first started up the comapny, and he
>was prototyping algae wheels built with huge cable spools for
>waste treatment ponds. You may need something like this, or at
>minimum, several wheels along the length of the tank.
>You could DIY the wheels fairly easily, IMO.
>Wih minimal flow, I'd go bare bottom. This will keep the tank cleaner in the long run.
Like to look of sand.
>Have you figured out evaporation rates and how to deal with them?
I plan on setting up a Kalkwasser reactor with RO to handle the evaporation. I hope to automate this. Probably find some place in the filter system, set up a separate sump with another air lift pump, or put it in a refugium running off the same filter. I understand that there is a surge that creates a change in the water level in the tank. I would try to set it up to work off a minimum level.
>Also lighting that much tank will take some serious power, add heat, etc.
Yeah, I know. I have looked into some natural lighting to supplement artificial light. I also planned to use halides with a good ventilation system above to pull the heat away. Then there is always a chiller.
>Also, I personally would hate to service a tank that size. I have
>built many a special tool for public aquarists to service large
>displays, and its never easy. (Beautiful, yes, but a pain to
>maintain)
Where do I go here to post about maintenance of tanks this size? I kind of figured from Shimek's articles, other authers, and my experience with FW planted that one tends to just leave a DSB alone. I hoped an occasional small "storm" surge (created by extra air lift or other non-destructive pumps) would clean up the stuff on top by getting up into the water column and then to the filter for processing. If that works, the only uncertainty is what I need to do regarding corals.
>Just throwing some more food for thought out there for you.
>Sounds like a great project.
I hope so. If only it comes out half as nice as Brett's.
Thanks guys.
Charles
Sorry about formatting - still trying to figure this out:
>I got in touch with Chris Limcaco, who told me he sold the
>Aquarium side of the business (AE) to another company, he now
>only deals in waste treatment, the web site is >[url]http://www.algaewheel.com/.[/url] I have to say he is till very
>helpful, even though it is no longer his business.
Thanks a bunch. I'll try to reach them tomorrow.
Chris wrote
>Nice to see you are doing your homework first. I wonder, too
>about the ecowheel having enough flow for a tank as large as
>you propose.
It's only a matter of scale.
>I talked to Chris when he first started up the comapny, and he
>was prototyping algae wheels built with huge cable spools for
>waste treatment ponds. You may need something like this, or at
>minimum, several wheels along the length of the tank.
>You could DIY the wheels fairly easily, IMO.
>Wih minimal flow, I'd go bare bottom. This will keep the tank cleaner in the long run.
Like to look of sand.
>Have you figured out evaporation rates and how to deal with them?
I plan on setting up a Kalkwasser reactor with RO to handle the evaporation. I hope to automate this. Probably find some place in the filter system, set up a separate sump with another air lift pump, or put it in a refugium running off the same filter. I understand that there is a surge that creates a change in the water level in the tank. I would try to set it up to work off a minimum level.
>Also lighting that much tank will take some serious power, add heat, etc.
Yeah, I know. I have looked into some natural lighting to supplement artificial light. I also planned to use halides with a good ventilation system above to pull the heat away. Then there is always a chiller.
>Also, I personally would hate to service a tank that size. I have
>built many a special tool for public aquarists to service large
>displays, and its never easy. (Beautiful, yes, but a pain to
>maintain)
Where do I go here to post about maintenance of tanks this size? I kind of figured from Shimek's articles, other authers, and my experience with FW planted that one tends to just leave a DSB alone. I hoped an occasional small "storm" surge (created by extra air lift or other non-destructive pumps) would clean up the stuff on top by getting up into the water column and then to the filter for processing. If that works, the only uncertainty is what I need to do regarding corals.
>Just throwing some more food for thought out there for you.
>Sounds like a great project.
I hope so. If only it comes out half as nice as Brett's.
Thanks guys.
Charles
Charles,
I forgot to write it, but what I meant by evaporation rates, was that the humidity in your house will rise dramatically, and as such, you will need good ventilation or dehumidification equipment.
You should take all of this over to the Large Reef Tank forum here on RC. (Even though your interest in with the ecowheels.)
I've worked on a lot of LARGE systems. Let me know if I can help.
Chris
I forgot to write it, but what I meant by evaporation rates, was that the humidity in your house will rise dramatically, and as such, you will need good ventilation or dehumidification equipment.
You should take all of this over to the Large Reef Tank forum here on RC. (Even though your interest in with the ecowheels.)
I've worked on a lot of LARGE systems. Let me know if I can help.
Chris
Charles,
I'll see if I can pick out your questions and tackle them in order......
My suggestion would be to just have him build a generic room directly behind the wall where you plan to locate the tank. Have him include a raised concrete pad of perhaps 3-4ââ"šÂ¬Ã‚ or so to accomodate the tank. Put a floor drain in the center, a stainless sink and small counter top in one corner and coat the floor and about 3ââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢ up the walls with an epoxy/sand industrial floor coating so you can just hose everything down. Make sure you get lotââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢s of electrical outlets (with water resistant covers) and save some space for your saltwater reservoir, RO reservoir, a small refrigerator to hold fish food and beer and a couch for when your wife inadvertantly gets a look at the checkbook
Oh... and donââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢t forget some kind of airflow to remove the humidity and cool the tank.
Iââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢d strongly suggest keeping it under 1,000 gals so itââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢s still reasonably manageable. Chris (H20ENG) and myself have a good deal of experiece working on big (really big) tanks and yes, they are fun to look at, but they can be pretty overwhelming to keep running 24/7. Once the novelty wears off you still need to keep the thing going... that includes when you are out of town, stuck on a project at work, down with the flu, or just plain burned out and need a break. There will be unforseen problems/emergencies, sleepless nights, not to mention a butt load of money. 750-800 gals would be the maximum size I would consider doing if I ever went bigger.
How about 2 tanks built into the wall? Say... 500 gals each. a couple 6 footers side by side would look sweet. Youââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢d also get more flexibility with what you could keep. Reef in one side, a predator tank for the other.
Have you seen Steve Weastââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢s tank? www.oregonreef.com
I think he did a great job in picking a nicely shaped and balanced tank and aquascaping accordingly. Iââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢m not a big fan of the stacked rock wall .....you see it day after day and after 17 years Iââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢m pretty well done with that and ready to move on. I really like the Japanese tanks - especially the way they keep the rock height low and make the reef a forced perspective focal point of the bigger picture rather than an ââ"šÂ¬Ã…"œin your face, overwhelming, use every last bit of spaceââ"šÂ¬Ã‚ kind of way.
If you do go with a long tank... like 12ââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢... may I suggest multiple viewing windows along the wall. You could still do different aquascapings like you mentioned, but put a framed window around each area to ââ"šÂ¬Ã…"œshowcaseââ"šÂ¬Ã‚ it. Then, when you looked in youââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢d get the illusion of the tank continuing off into the distance. Youââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢d also get the added effect of the fish passing by each window as they traveled the full length of the tank. At least thatââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢s the way Iââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢d do it if I had a really long tank.
You canââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢t reach the bottom in anything over 24ââ"šÂ¬Ã‚ so a 30ââ"šÂ¬Ã‚ÂH tank will require tongs or similar for general maintenance and what not. But I think 30ââ"šÂ¬Ã‚ is the minimum for a nice open viewing area. 36ââ"šÂ¬Ã‚ is probably better. Youââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢ll be lookng at 400w MHââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢s for that kind of height but if you are going to go long I think youââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢re going to need to offset that with some decent height or itââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢s going to look severely out of proportion. Also, depth wise, the bigger the better.... way more flexibility. So 36ââ"šÂ¬Ã‚ at the minimum with 48ââ"šÂ¬Ã‚ being better still. Thatââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢s one of the reasons I like Steveââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢s tank so much - his depth allows him to do a lot of creative rockwork and you really can get the 3D effect working for you. Otherwise, itââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢s back to the sloping rock wall and that 2D look.
With reagrd to DSBââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢s I donââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢t think they would be much of a benefit to me at this stage of the game. I was already playing around with algae filtration when they started to become popular.
I do have several reservations about them but I have not set one up, nor do I plan to anytime in the future, so what I think really doesnââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢t matter. But, I will say that for some folks, especially those just starting out, they might be a viable option.
To some extent yes, but youââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢ll prbably get more help from your live rock. Also, the larger the tank the more self-sustaining it becomes. I would guess a 750+ gallon tank could produce enough food to keep fish reasonably well fed with only minimal feedings from you. But this will be dependant upon how big of a fish load you have.
Exactly the reason I am suggesting you scale back just a bit on your tank size. A reef tank is definitely way more work than freshwater planted and as you increase your size so will you increase your workload.
Yes, to some degree they are capable of being left to their own for short periods of time. My feeding regime for my fish is usally a couple 2-3 days on, with a break followed by another 2 or 3. Averages out to about 5 feedings and 2 fasting days a week. But itââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢s not the fish that you have to worry about, itââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢s more than likely going to be your life support that will cause the probs. Thatââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢s why youââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢ll want to keep everything as simple and low-tech as possible with as many backups and safeguards as you can engineer.
Well, other than the occasional small tuft of algae the breaks free (quickly eaten by my herbivores) Iââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢m not actually seeing anything coming out of the filter. However, the lower portions of the filter as well as my 5 influent/effluent boxes are teaming with life.... mysis, copepods, worms etc., so I imagine to some extent some of that has to be finding itââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢s way into the main displays.
Iââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢ve read some of them. When it comes to what Dr. Ron has to say.... well, Iââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢ll just say that I think heââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢s a great invertebrate biologist and has helped a lot of people on this board. Other than that, I donââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢t frequent his forum very often. Itââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢s the people who have his picture up on their walls and can quote him from memory that worry me
My water changes are strictly for waste export and trace element replacement. I use NSW which runs about .50/gal out here. Thatââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢s cheap insurance IMO, and the cost of a 25 gal weekly or bi-weekly water change is chump change compared to what I have invested or at stake. I look at it this way - I can spend the money and time on mixing salt and purchasing additives or just zip down the street and fill up some jugs and be done with it.
With regard to dissolved organics and/or any yellowing compounds I think that is something that is way over exaggerated. I hear a lot of people slamming ATS/non skimmed tanks as looking dingy and having yellow water, but I wonder just how many they have actually seen. Not that Iââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢ve had all that many people come see my tank in person, but those that have havenââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢t complained in the slightest about the color of my water. Probably because it pretty much looks... well, just like regular water.
I think carbon is a good thing, and do run it on occasion. Have I noticed a diff with or without it? No, not really. So why am I running carbon? Ahhh, you got me on that one??? Guess cuz most everyone else is and old habits are hard to break.
No. But about once a month I blast everything with a powerhead (including sand) and let a hang on tank cannister with a pleated cartridge run overnight to remove all the crud. That seems to be working well.
Perhaps, but itââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢s loaded with life and doesnââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢t seem to accumulate much past about 1/8ââ"šÂ¬Ã‚ so Iââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢ve just learned to live with it.
Yes, much to my amazement. My past experience keeps telling me that I need more, but my eyes are telling me everything is fine. Tis a tortured soul I am, I know. I think the pulsing and surging has a lot to do with it. Right now I have about a dozen good sized SPS colonies and another half dozen frags or small colonies and all are doing quite nicely. Iââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢m sure I could probably do better if I really blasted them with more flow, but for what purpose? Iââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢ve already had to either frag or relocate some corals outright. I donââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢t really have a need to supercharge my growth because Iââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢m pretty much out of room as it is.
Well, at the time I didnââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢t have a 3rd hand to hold buckets under 3 diffferent influent boxes so I could measure GPH. I had to guesstimate and figured a 10-15% improvement over A.E.ââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢s design.
I think thatââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢s a good line of thought. Donââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢t worry about A.E. you can work around them. I know that seems like a difficult concept at this stage of the game, but now that I have run one I really donââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢t have any need to deal with them beyond an occasional chit-chat with Chris.
No, not at the present, but itââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢s in the back of my mind eating away at me like a slow festering cancer. Iââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢m weird that way... I frequently lay awake in bed at night worrying about fixing things that arenââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢t broke
Look into a good tank controller like an Octopus or similar. They usually have a telephone interface than can set off a pager if a certain set of parameters fall out of line (like temp or pH).
Couple choices here.... start playing the lottery.... or join your local reef club and bribe everyone with copious amounts of beer and food in return for frags
Nope! Once a week I harvest the algae, wipe down the front acrylic on the filter and lens on the light fixture and put the lid back on. Takes about 30 minutes. The bearings are really just tefelon axels in a recessed socket. Theyââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢re quite durable and those couple of scratches appear to be no big deal at all.
I should have some pics up in a couple weeks - Iââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢m waiting on some parts. Itââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢s pretty straightforward.... a couple hoses that will hang on the side of the tank like a normal cannister filter with a 3rd line for the pressure washer so I can do my cleaning at the same time. The only difference between this one and something like a Magnum is itââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢s bigger, beefier, and will flow like 1000gph instead of 200gph.
LOL.... youââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢ve got a real sense of humor there Charles
Brett
I'll see if I can pick out your questions and tackle them in order......
chask said:
My suggestion would be to just have him build a generic room directly behind the wall where you plan to locate the tank. Have him include a raised concrete pad of perhaps 3-4ââ"šÂ¬Ã‚ or so to accomodate the tank. Put a floor drain in the center, a stainless sink and small counter top in one corner and coat the floor and about 3ââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢ up the walls with an epoxy/sand industrial floor coating so you can just hose everything down. Make sure you get lotââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢s of electrical outlets (with water resistant covers) and save some space for your saltwater reservoir, RO reservoir, a small refrigerator to hold fish food and beer and a couch for when your wife inadvertantly gets a look at the checkbook
Oh... and donââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢t forget some kind of airflow to remove the humidity and cool the tank.
Iââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢d strongly suggest keeping it under 1,000 gals so itââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢s still reasonably manageable. Chris (H20ENG) and myself have a good deal of experiece working on big (really big) tanks and yes, they are fun to look at, but they can be pretty overwhelming to keep running 24/7. Once the novelty wears off you still need to keep the thing going... that includes when you are out of town, stuck on a project at work, down with the flu, or just plain burned out and need a break. There will be unforseen problems/emergencies, sleepless nights, not to mention a butt load of money. 750-800 gals would be the maximum size I would consider doing if I ever went bigger.
How about 2 tanks built into the wall? Say... 500 gals each. a couple 6 footers side by side would look sweet. Youââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢d also get more flexibility with what you could keep. Reef in one side, a predator tank for the other.
Have you seen Steve Weastââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢s tank? www.oregonreef.com
I think he did a great job in picking a nicely shaped and balanced tank and aquascaping accordingly. Iââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢m not a big fan of the stacked rock wall .....you see it day after day and after 17 years Iââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢m pretty well done with that and ready to move on. I really like the Japanese tanks - especially the way they keep the rock height low and make the reef a forced perspective focal point of the bigger picture rather than an ââ"šÂ¬Ã…"œin your face, overwhelming, use every last bit of spaceââ"šÂ¬Ã‚ kind of way.
If you do go with a long tank... like 12ââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢... may I suggest multiple viewing windows along the wall. You could still do different aquascapings like you mentioned, but put a framed window around each area to ââ"šÂ¬Ã…"œshowcaseââ"šÂ¬Ã‚ it. Then, when you looked in youââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢d get the illusion of the tank continuing off into the distance. Youââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢d also get the added effect of the fish passing by each window as they traveled the full length of the tank. At least thatââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢s the way Iââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢d do it if I had a really long tank.
You canââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢t reach the bottom in anything over 24ââ"šÂ¬Ã‚ so a 30ââ"šÂ¬Ã‚ÂH tank will require tongs or similar for general maintenance and what not. But I think 30ââ"šÂ¬Ã‚ is the minimum for a nice open viewing area. 36ââ"šÂ¬Ã‚ is probably better. Youââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢ll be lookng at 400w MHââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢s for that kind of height but if you are going to go long I think youââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢re going to need to offset that with some decent height or itââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢s going to look severely out of proportion. Also, depth wise, the bigger the better.... way more flexibility. So 36ââ"šÂ¬Ã‚ at the minimum with 48ââ"šÂ¬Ã‚ being better still. Thatââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢s one of the reasons I like Steveââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢s tank so much - his depth allows him to do a lot of creative rockwork and you really can get the 3D effect working for you. Otherwise, itââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢s back to the sloping rock wall and that 2D look.
With reagrd to DSBââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢s I donââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢t think they would be much of a benefit to me at this stage of the game. I was already playing around with algae filtration when they started to become popular.
I do have several reservations about them but I have not set one up, nor do I plan to anytime in the future, so what I think really doesnââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢t matter. But, I will say that for some folks, especially those just starting out, they might be a viable option.
To some extent yes, but youââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢ll prbably get more help from your live rock. Also, the larger the tank the more self-sustaining it becomes. I would guess a 750+ gallon tank could produce enough food to keep fish reasonably well fed with only minimal feedings from you. But this will be dependant upon how big of a fish load you have.
Exactly the reason I am suggesting you scale back just a bit on your tank size. A reef tank is definitely way more work than freshwater planted and as you increase your size so will you increase your workload.
Yes, to some degree they are capable of being left to their own for short periods of time. My feeding regime for my fish is usally a couple 2-3 days on, with a break followed by another 2 or 3. Averages out to about 5 feedings and 2 fasting days a week. But itââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢s not the fish that you have to worry about, itââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢s more than likely going to be your life support that will cause the probs. Thatââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢s why youââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢ll want to keep everything as simple and low-tech as possible with as many backups and safeguards as you can engineer.
Well, other than the occasional small tuft of algae the breaks free (quickly eaten by my herbivores) Iââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢m not actually seeing anything coming out of the filter. However, the lower portions of the filter as well as my 5 influent/effluent boxes are teaming with life.... mysis, copepods, worms etc., so I imagine to some extent some of that has to be finding itââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢s way into the main displays.
Iââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢ve read some of them. When it comes to what Dr. Ron has to say.... well, Iââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢ll just say that I think heââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢s a great invertebrate biologist and has helped a lot of people on this board. Other than that, I donââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢t frequent his forum very often. Itââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢s the people who have his picture up on their walls and can quote him from memory that worry me
My water changes are strictly for waste export and trace element replacement. I use NSW which runs about .50/gal out here. Thatââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢s cheap insurance IMO, and the cost of a 25 gal weekly or bi-weekly water change is chump change compared to what I have invested or at stake. I look at it this way - I can spend the money and time on mixing salt and purchasing additives or just zip down the street and fill up some jugs and be done with it.
With regard to dissolved organics and/or any yellowing compounds I think that is something that is way over exaggerated. I hear a lot of people slamming ATS/non skimmed tanks as looking dingy and having yellow water, but I wonder just how many they have actually seen. Not that Iââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢ve had all that many people come see my tank in person, but those that have havenââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢t complained in the slightest about the color of my water. Probably because it pretty much looks... well, just like regular water.
I think carbon is a good thing, and do run it on occasion. Have I noticed a diff with or without it? No, not really. So why am I running carbon? Ahhh, you got me on that one??? Guess cuz most everyone else is and old habits are hard to break.
No. But about once a month I blast everything with a powerhead (including sand) and let a hang on tank cannister with a pleated cartridge run overnight to remove all the crud. That seems to be working well.
Perhaps, but itââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢s loaded with life and doesnââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢t seem to accumulate much past about 1/8ââ"šÂ¬Ã‚ so Iââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢ve just learned to live with it.
Yes, much to my amazement. My past experience keeps telling me that I need more, but my eyes are telling me everything is fine. Tis a tortured soul I am, I know. I think the pulsing and surging has a lot to do with it. Right now I have about a dozen good sized SPS colonies and another half dozen frags or small colonies and all are doing quite nicely. Iââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢m sure I could probably do better if I really blasted them with more flow, but for what purpose? Iââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢ve already had to either frag or relocate some corals outright. I donââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢t really have a need to supercharge my growth because Iââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢m pretty much out of room as it is.
Well, at the time I didnââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢t have a 3rd hand to hold buckets under 3 diffferent influent boxes so I could measure GPH. I had to guesstimate and figured a 10-15% improvement over A.E.ââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢s design.
I think thatââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢s a good line of thought. Donââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢t worry about A.E. you can work around them. I know that seems like a difficult concept at this stage of the game, but now that I have run one I really donââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢t have any need to deal with them beyond an occasional chit-chat with Chris.
No, not at the present, but itââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢s in the back of my mind eating away at me like a slow festering cancer. Iââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢m weird that way... I frequently lay awake in bed at night worrying about fixing things that arenââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢t broke
Look into a good tank controller like an Octopus or similar. They usually have a telephone interface than can set off a pager if a certain set of parameters fall out of line (like temp or pH).
Couple choices here.... start playing the lottery.... or join your local reef club and bribe everyone with copious amounts of beer and food in return for frags
Nope! Once a week I harvest the algae, wipe down the front acrylic on the filter and lens on the light fixture and put the lid back on. Takes about 30 minutes. The bearings are really just tefelon axels in a recessed socket. Theyââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢re quite durable and those couple of scratches appear to be no big deal at all.
I should have some pics up in a couple weeks - Iââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢m waiting on some parts. Itââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢s pretty straightforward.... a couple hoses that will hang on the side of the tank like a normal cannister filter with a 3rd line for the pressure washer so I can do my cleaning at the same time. The only difference between this one and something like a Magnum is itââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢s bigger, beefier, and will flow like 1000gph instead of 200gph.
LOL.... youââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢ve got a real sense of humor there Charles
Brett
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matt & pam
Member
Charles,
I just ordered an Eco-wheel from a shop in TN. I was very concerned about the business dealings with Chris, I rarely could reach him, but finally I received confirmation he could produce an eco-wheel unit. There has been a delay in receiving the unit, apparently the air pump isn't available. I hope this will be remedied some time this year.
This will be my first marine tank, and from my studies it appears to be a cost-effective approach. There is one dual system on a 500 gallon system at the Newport aquarium (KY). It's set up as a reef now, with a group of clownfish. Their system needs a lot of help, at least during the time I visited. It had hair algae everywhere. The store I bought from also had a problem one time I visited (about two months ago). The guy who maintains the tank was on vacation for a while and it appears there wasn't much harvesting during that period. Now two months later (and proper attention), the tank is back to looking great.
I agree with the other posts, you'll need either a bunch of eco-wheel units for a massive tank like you're planning.
Good luck.
Matt
I just ordered an Eco-wheel from a shop in TN. I was very concerned about the business dealings with Chris, I rarely could reach him, but finally I received confirmation he could produce an eco-wheel unit. There has been a delay in receiving the unit, apparently the air pump isn't available. I hope this will be remedied some time this year.
This will be my first marine tank, and from my studies it appears to be a cost-effective approach. There is one dual system on a 500 gallon system at the Newport aquarium (KY). It's set up as a reef now, with a group of clownfish. Their system needs a lot of help, at least during the time I visited. It had hair algae everywhere. The store I bought from also had a problem one time I visited (about two months ago). The guy who maintains the tank was on vacation for a while and it appears there wasn't much harvesting during that period. Now two months later (and proper attention), the tank is back to looking great.
I agree with the other posts, you'll need either a bunch of eco-wheel units for a massive tank like you're planning.
Good luck.
Matt
Matt & Pam,
Thanks for the info but now I'm confused. Is AE still making the unit or is it Algaewheel Inc. Maybe Chris is just finishing up your order.
I just tried Algaewheel and reached Chris Limcaco. He is the inventor. Said a guy named Chris Owens had purchased the aquarium rights from him a year or so ago. Hence the confusion (at least mine) on the Chris name thing. I got a phone number for Chris Owens and will try him tomorrow.
Chris Limcaco said custom work is done and that they had done one for a 25,000 gallon tank at an aquarium just recently (Hmm? Maybe I could just turn the equipment room into a tank), but that he thought the approach for my application would be a modular one. Oh well, guess I'll find out soon.
Brett,
Sounds a lot more like what I am after. Where does one get a look at the style? THough I have a pretty good idea of what I want to do, maybe I can get a few ideas.
Steve's tank and setup is very, very good. I had thought of many of his ideas (slide out lighting for instance but that was to change the bulbs) but had not figured out how to do it for sure. His implementation is better than the one I had conceived. To be fair, I also got more than a few ideas from him too.
Doesn't that kind of defeat the air lift pump thingy? I guess you do not notice any adverse affects. Bonreman's book on coral mentioned some non-destructive pumps or technologies. Are you familiar with any of them?
That does not seem like a lot more work. And I do not see how going from 850 to 1250 is that much more work. maybe glass cleaning and perhaps an additional section of filter. Is that all that much? Am I missing something here?
Also, I do not see anything in Steve Weast's tank that looks to be difficult for him to reach except his is only 30" high. From my underarm (Ooops, sorry to be indelicate) I've got 28" to the center of my palm, and a little over 30" to my clenched finger tips and thumb. Subtract 5-6" DSB and 36" is about what Steve is doing now. One foot tongs does not seem out of reason unless it is more difficlt to work with the coral thingies with tongs than it is with FW plants and rocks. If I am up on a patform (like Steve W.) and get my sholder down to the top of the tank or just above the water level, I can probably add another 5-6" or so (still reaching the bottom with my clenched fingers and thumb. I think that would be pushing 40" at least, maybe 42". However, I've got a thread in Large Reef Tanks (How big? Concerned about maintenance on a large tank) where we should probably be discussing this if you want to help. No more from me about this here.
PS - Wasn't kidding about the help thing but I probably should find a DSB guy since I want to go that way. The more I think about this the more convinvced I am that I will eventually need someone who is experienced with this to be sure it is going together right. But boy you do nice work!
Thanks alot to all for all your help.
Charles
Thanks for the info but now I'm confused. Is AE still making the unit or is it Algaewheel Inc. Maybe Chris is just finishing up your order.
I just tried Algaewheel and reached Chris Limcaco. He is the inventor. Said a guy named Chris Owens had purchased the aquarium rights from him a year or so ago. Hence the confusion (at least mine) on the Chris name thing. I got a phone number for Chris Owens and will try him tomorrow.
Chris Limcaco said custom work is done and that they had done one for a 25,000 gallon tank at an aquarium just recently (Hmm? Maybe I could just turn the equipment room into a tank
), but that he thought the approach for my application would be a modular one. Oh well, guess I'll find out soon.Brett,
Sounds a lot more like what I am after. Where does one get a look at the style? THough I have a pretty good idea of what I want to do, maybe I can get a few ideas.
Steve's tank and setup is very, very good. I had thought of many of his ideas (slide out lighting for instance but that was to change the bulbs) but had not figured out how to do it for sure. His implementation is better than the one I had conceived. To be fair, I also got more than a few ideas from him too.
Doesn't that kind of defeat the air lift pump thingy? I guess you do not notice any adverse affects. Bonreman's book on coral mentioned some non-destructive pumps or technologies. Are you familiar with any of them?
That does not seem like a lot more work. And I do not see how going from 850 to 1250 is that much more work. maybe glass cleaning and perhaps an additional section of filter. Is that all that much? Am I missing something here?
Also, I do not see anything in Steve Weast's tank that looks to be difficult for him to reach except his is only 30" high. From my underarm (Ooops, sorry to be indelicate
) I've got 28" to the center of my palm, and a little over 30" to my clenched finger tips and thumb. Subtract 5-6" DSB and 36" is about what Steve is doing now. One foot tongs does not seem out of reason unless it is more difficlt to work with the coral thingies with tongs than it is with FW plants and rocks. If I am up on a patform (like Steve W.) and get my sholder down to the top of the tank or just above the water level, I can probably add another 5-6" or so (still reaching the bottom with my clenched fingers and thumb. I think that would be pushing 40" at least, maybe 42". However, I've got a thread in Large Reef Tanks (How big? Concerned about maintenance on a large tank) where we should probably be discussing this if you want to help. No more from me about this here.PS - Wasn't kidding about the help thing
but I probably should find a DSB guy since I want to go that way. The more I think about this the more convinvced I am that I will eventually need someone who is experienced with this to be sure it is going together right. But boy you do nice work!Thanks alot to all for all your help.
Charles
I have a question regarding the modification to the airlift.
When I first read that it would give an overall improvement in flow, it got my interest, and I went to the thread describing the modification.
http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=136607&highlight=air+lift
The main concern I have with the modification, is the injector would drastically reduce the size of the air bubbles. In "Dynamic Aquaria" Dr Adey talks about bubble size, and the need to keep the bubble size quite large, to minimize the skimming effect which would be detrimental to planktonic life.
When I first read that it would give an overall improvement in flow, it got my interest, and I went to the thread describing the modification.
http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=136607&highlight=air+lift
The main concern I have with the modification, is the injector would drastically reduce the size of the air bubbles. In "Dynamic Aquaria" Dr Adey talks about bubble size, and the need to keep the bubble size quite large, to minimize the skimming effect which would be detrimental to planktonic life.
matt & pam
Member
The eco-wheel sales rights are owned by Chris Owens, I believe he works out of mission pet mart, or something like that in KC. It's a challenge to reach him, IMO. Brett helped me finally get in touch. My impression is he concentrates on maintaining tanks in the KC area and doesn't spend much time marketing the eco-wheel. They used to advertise the system in FAMA every month, but I haven't seen an advertising in at least a year.
Matt.
Matt.
I'm not sure how many EcoWheels Chris actually sells in a year but it can't be a whole lot.
The way it is now we're practically a cult and from the sound of things it doesn't appear our little group will be growing by leaps and bounds anytime soon.
Brett
The way it is now we're practically a cult and from the sound of things it doesn't appear our little group will be growing by leaps and bounds anytime soon.
Brett
caevan said:
Well, I'm not exactly making a whole lot of foam in my EcoWheel. Not even enough to leave a "scum" line on the acrylic.
The holes in my injector are 1/8" which produce some medium sized bubbles. Even viewing my section of clear acrylic tube in the airlift I can see some pretty decent sized bubbles.
My primary reason for making the modification was to try to even out the air injection as oppossed to the way it was before with the 1/2" hosebarb dumping it all in at one spot.
One of the newer probs that has developed seems to be directly related to placing the tanks on the carpet. The weight of the reef tank caused that section to settle just a tad more than the pier piling tank or the middle section with the EcoWheel.
It's probably not more that 1/4" of difference but it's having a huge impact on my setup. Due to the way Tenecor built the tanks the day-to-day water level ran very close to the top of my overflow grates. And now that the reef tank has settle independant of the rest of the system the optimum water level winds up being about 1/8" above the grating. So, surface skimming is greatly affected. If I let the water level drop any lower it affects the EcoWheel and I get sporadic rotation.
The easy fix would be to valve down the return lines to create a little back pressure in the EcoWheel but that in turn affects the flow going into the reef. So it's a catch 22.
So, modifying the overflow grating may be an alternative I may have to explore down the road.
Brett
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Just out of curiosity, those of you currently running an EcoWheel how easy is it for you to stop the wheel's rotation with your hand?
I thought I remembered reading in the testimonial on A.E.'s website where the writer said that it took "some" deliberate effort to hold the wheel in place.
I'm finding that (especially when it's loaded down with algae and on the "up stroke" portion of rotation) that it takes a surprisingly small amount of effort to keep it from rotating.
Brett
I thought I remembered reading in the testimonial on A.E.'s website where the writer said that it took "some" deliberate effort to hold the wheel in place.
I'm finding that (especially when it's loaded down with algae and on the "up stroke" portion of rotation) that it takes a surprisingly small amount of effort to keep it from rotating.
Brett
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