A question

ratimpulse

New member
I am doing a central sump witha rubbermaid stock tank and running all my stuff throught there including a fuge, and a very large recirculating skimmer. I have a few questions that pertain to Seahorses. I am going to run about 5-6 tanks off of the sump. Would the seahorses have a problem with the water if its being shared by a few mini reefs?
 
Main issue will be temp. Seahorses like 74F or below. Seahorses are also messy so hard to share with those pristine reef water quailty setups. JMO
 
Water temperature, as pledo wrote, will be your main problem. I personally think you can run a little higher than 74 with a tropical species such as H. kuda: up in the 76 to 78 range.

If you run your reefs a little cooler, say 78-80 and do your heating in individual tanks instead of the central sump, you could manage fine.

If you have a decent sized fuge (depends on your total system volume) in conjunction with that big skimmer you should be able to manage nutrients OK too.

Fred
 
i have also found that my horses like cool temps. around 72-75 is where i keep mine now with success over a year. but i have seen some keep them warmer.
 
Out of curiosity David, what is it about warmer temps your horses didn't like, or cooler temps they lilked?

I find absolutely no physiological signs of stress in my horses at higher temperatures (increased resperation, lethargy, disease, behavior changes), but I am only one keeper.

Fred
 
well i found that thier metabolisnm was faster. i noticed much more pinched bellies and other parasite desieases. as you stated i also am just one keeper but my first attempts failed and when i cooled my tank i am now successful for over a year when before a few months produced problems. i think the cooler temp keeps them full and healthy to battle any other issues. i did research and found that most keepers keep seahorses in cooler tanks than reefs and have success. check it out but i in know way preach that its neccesary to keep them in cooler temps. but it does seem to work better for them as far as long term life span is concerned.
 
by the way at low temps i feed my horses once a day with no signs of starvation. also i skip days sometimes even two without issues. the temp may be a key as i only feed frozeen mysis not soaked or anything in addatives. so theres no real additional supplaments.
 
Thanks David. Thats very interesting. I tend to feed twice a day and I have a huge refugium that cranks out a lot of amphipods.

My personal suspicion is that problems at higher temps are diet related. I wish I had the time and resouces to follow up on my suspicions.

Fred
 
totally agree! if the lower temp can reduce the whole nutrition issue with horses then it can be good but thats not to say they like it. maybe the success with no effert with reef temps will help stray away from my thinking. so i stick ewith low temps for now.
 
gotta agree w/ reefD on the metabolism issue. I've got 2 Reidi that are in a 55g w/ corals, mushrooms, etc. so I do keep the temp a little higher (78degrees). there are no issues w/ the seahorses. i've been doing this since April and they're still alive. the female is a very overactive eater. maybe if temp was lower she wouldn't eat so much, but I've got a male and he only eats half of what she eats. so, it may not be just metabolism, but girls could be piggy eaters!!:)

oh, btw, I am a female so I'm not a female basher. just stating that my girlie is quite a....pig when it comes to eating:)
 
I personally don't see the temperature thing as good or bad. In their natural environment any given species of horse lives in a wide range of temperatures.

If I could run my tank a little lower year round, I would. In my case, my tank runs up into the low 80s in the summer based on room temperature. I don't have the $$ to spend on a chiller and I now do not think it is needed.

Scapes, I find my female eats more than the males do as well. Producing eggs is energetically expensive and probably explains why females would eat more.

Fred
 
I can run the tanks at around 80 or so and then run an inline chiller into the horse tank. There will probably be 250-350 gallons of water in the total system. I havent totaly planned it all out.
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8814517#post8814517 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Fredfish
I personally don't see the temperature thing as good or bad. In their natural environment any given species of horse lives in a wide range of temperatures.Fred

This true, but what you are not realizing is that in their natural environment the bacterial levels are reduced by the vast gallonage of the ocean. Also, the horses are able to escape to a temperature that better suits their needs by either going deeper or shallower where as in a tank the water temp is all the same.

The reasoning behind the lower temps in an aquarium setting is not the fact that the horses can't handle it, but rather the bacteria is moe prolific in the higher temps. If the bacteria count is high enough any little stressor can cause the horses to become susceptible to the infection.

Fred, I used to have the same beliefs as you until this past summer. I lost all of my horses due to a vibrio outbreak caused by high tank temps. I have had the horses for 2+ years and they were breeding prolifically and had no health issues. My tank spiked into the mid 80's this summer for a matter of days and then within 2 weeks all my horses were sick. This was in 3 seperate sytems so I know it wasn't something in the tank that caused it.

Also if you browse the Emergency forum at seahorse.org you will notice that there is a significant increase in cases iof infections during the summer months when temps are higher.

So to summarize, the whole keeping horses at lower temps is not just made up info to discourage folks from keeping horses, but rather reality based on years of experiences and research.
 
First off, I have never said that issues people have at higher temperatures are made up. It is however more complicated than just higher temperatures kill horses.

I also do not generally recommend that people keep their horses at higher temps (though I see in reading back through this thread that I did not add the usual caveat).

Also, the horses are able to escape to a temperature that better suits their needs

While there are some species that have been observed to migrate, the few studies on seahorses and territories show that horses on average have a territory of between 6 and 20 square meters. That is, they occupy a small area and do not generally venture outside of it.

On top of this, in those lattitudes close to the equator, you need to go quite deep to reach a thermocline. When I dove the GBR in Australia the water temperature was a uniform 75F (winter temp.)from the surface down to 30 meters. Given that a species like H. Kuda is generally found in waters of 1 - 20 meters, its not likely that they would migrate to cooler water.

If you look at a shallow water species like H. kuda living on the equator, it is quite likely living in water that ranges between the low 80s and low 90s 7/24/365.

I also find it interesting that the folks running captive breeding programs in places like Viet Nam and China are running their systems at 78F. I have run across 3 such references so far. Two were definately in reciculating systems.

rather reality based on years of experiences and research.

I'm interested in the research part. Has anyone taken a look at bacterial concentrations, particularly vibrio, in horse aquariums and been able to compare them to levels found in nature?

Interestingly, In a paper by the folks at the Shed Aquarium written in 2002 they identified vibrio as the primary disease issue at their facility. However, the majority of cases occurred in the first two weeks after new specimins were acquired. They linked the disease to a compromised imune system caused by a lack of feeding as the horses passed through the distribution system.

So, while I believe that warmer water temperature can contribute to issues with horses, I personally do not think that it is the primary cause.

At any rate, I will continue to run my system the same. Perhaps I will come to regret that, perhaps not.

To bring this back on topic for ratimpulse, I would definately not recommend running your horse tank in the 80s. I personally think you can run it a little warmer than the recommended 74 as long as you are aware of potential risks.

If you are going to run a chiller, you can dial your temp in where you want it.

Fred
 
great stuff guys! i agree about the bacteria stuff. it is like the higher temps wake them up or something.
 
also i have heard researchers say that animals ( like fish) in warm waters eat more grow fatsre and have an aceelerated life. in otherwords they eat more grow faster and die quiker. not sure how true this is but just saying i have heard that temp has an effect on the metabalism of cold blooded fish. the higher temp makes them hungrier all the time. true ? not? im no scientist but i have heard this many times in past from well educated biologist. so cooler temps would keep a seahorse from expending the most amount of energy and thus need less food as less energy is burned.
 
I think this is a fundamental misunderstanding of the scenario involved regarding temperature and it's relation to bacterial disease.

I'm not the best explainer but I'm going to try to give a basic explanation of the etiology aspect and hope that can make some sense.

There is a difference between resistance/tolerance/susceptible pathogenetic vs. nonpathogenetic.

For this example we will use a horse with a genetic makeup of ssRr and a bacteria with a makeup of iiPp. Under lower temperatures the horse produces a protein Rr that does not allow for the binding of the ineffective site that the bacterium produces (ii)at the lower temperature. You see no disease.

Once the temperature is elevated the proteins the bacerium produce change to a more virtulent strain. The bacterium now begins to produce the protein (Pp) as well as reproducing more bacteria at a significant rate. The horse may not carry resistance (ss) to the new protein and the stress from the rise in temperature may turn off the horses ability to manufactor Rr.

At higher temperatures when the bacteria begin to produce ii and Pp you now have a horse who may have no resistance to the more virtulent form of the strain of the Pp protein and possibly has stopped producing Rr. The chance and likelyhood of disease is significantly higher.

You have seen my state several times that IMO based on the research of Labdoc (Dr. Belli) I believe that seahorses can be asymptomatic carriers for strains of vibrio. Shedd's has published and stated that they have found 100% of their stock to be carriers and in Labdoc's book, Working Notes, he wrote that only 29% of his samples should no growth for the bacteria, while some of them grew more then one strain. Since many of the samples Labdoc has used did not die from vibrio or were showing no signs of infection the assumption of an asymptomatic carrier state is reasonable IMO.

It is possible to find people with experience who have kept seahorses at higher temperatures without experiencing vibrio illness. IMO this stems from the 29%. This also IMO is why we can find people who have succsess with mixing species with no precautions. Also IME many people who will post many times they have experience in such husbandry practices do not return to amend there posts after they have experienced illness, or even system wipeouts. Just something to ponder.

We know that bacteria breed faster at higher temperatures. The higher temperatures help give the bacteria the perfect breeding ground and they are able to double themselves in as little as 20 minutes.

Dillution in our home systems is not a feesable option. Say a 20g can have a huge vibrio population in a couple of days under ideal conditions, just as an analogy. The actual time difference for having the same bacteria population per gallon from a 20g tank to a 100 gallon tank is less then an hour. Say you have a 500g so you think dillution will be enough, the time difference between the 20g tank bacteria population per gallon and a 500g tank under two hours. This is why we still see problems with infections shared even in larger systems. Dillution is not a factor in our systems, the amount of water is just not feesable. Even National Aquariums share the same issue.

As far as the aquarium vs. wild conditions I don't think there has been adaquete research that I have found. I have contacted several universities in my research into vibrio and I do not believe that the presence of vibrio in wild seahorses not showing illness, or strains of vibrio found in different regions of the world in different species of seahorses has been catalogged. I have seen reports with no offical scientific research about seahorses in the wild exhibiting vibrio related disease. Since the data is not there I think we have yet to determin if the vibrio illness that we see so often in our aquariums are present in the wild, or if it is an effect that is unique to our aquariums the same way GBD is. To many assumptions are being made For those reasons I think for now, the reasoning of temperatures that wild seahorses live vs. what we keep them in aquariums is premature.

Just my two cents.



:D
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8815877#post8815877 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by ratimpulse
I can run the tanks at around 80 or so and then run an inline chiller into the horse tank. There will probably be 250-350 gallons of water in the total system. I havent totaly planned it all out.

You'd need a pretty large chiller to keep the horse tank where it needs to be and the reef where it needs to be. Don't know how practical it is or what flow you would be able to used from the sump in order to keep a constant temp.

IMO it would be far easier just to run the horse tank on it's own system.
 
I understand the theory you are putting forward pledo. Has anyone done any work to show this is actually happening?

It is also possible that we have superbugs in some of our systems thet have evolved in captive conditions. Sort of like what has happened with the Elegance coral. If you have followed efforts to identify the pathogen involved with this coral, I think you can begin to appreciate how difficult, time consuming and potentially costly it is to determine what is going on with a particular oganism and associated pathogens.

Perhaps it is better to say we have no clue and leave it at that.

Fred
 
The work has been done, and is still being done. The work with the vibrio bacteria is widespread since it is so common in fish that people eat and it's effect on the water supply. The work on it's relation to seahorses is being done and has been done for quie some time by several universities as well as Labdoc, who is an M.D. and a pathologist. Labdoc was the first I've heard of to make a vaccine for a particular strain of vibrio and use it on his seahorse. Shedd's had previously tried to use vibrio from cold water salmon hoping for cross reactivity, but it didn't work out so well.

The work is extremely expensive and cost prohibitive in relation to seaorses. Seems like there is little scientific research done because it is of little value to the the scientific community. Those scientists all obssesed with helping humanity and such, not so worried about the fish in my tank.

Labdoc wrote in a PM to me it would only take a couple of years and about $500,000 for him to come up with a definitive anwser to the vibrio question in relationship to the home aquarium. I got $100 to spare, you got the rest. :D

I'm trying to get my finances in order so I go can back to the University for a Masters in Marine Bio, found a place local that will let me work with seahorses, Lots of life gets in the way to make that happen. Because of that, I consider all of my online time as studying. :D
 
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