A take on BB methodology.

[Bomber]

PUG, can you make a closed system too sterile?

Nitrates usually come from some animal material decomposing. Plus, I think a lot of people told you 5-10 nitrates are nothing to worry about.
Nitrates got a bad rap because people noticed that when nitrates would elevate, they would notice problems. Nitrates are usually associated with elevated nutrients, which are associated with elevated bound phosphate which you can't test for.

 

[PUGroyale]

I think a lot of people told you 5-10 nitrates are nothing to worry about.

Tell that to my Acro's that were dead or dying :lol: I'll send you the skeletons

I'm pretty sure I know where my nitrates were coming from and why I failed at BB. Things I would correct if I ever try it again. Now, take a look at the very tip of your pinkie... that represents all of my knowledge compared to yours

 

[redwinger02]

Allthough this guy has been around the hobby for quite some time. Everything that I here from him makes absolutelly no sense especially now that my tank is at the least possible maintance it has ever been since switching over to bare bottom. My tank has never looked better and corals have never responded better than they are now that I made the switch and took out the sand/sewer. This is also the same guy who referenced a comparison of xenia and acropora as being weedy, in the lastest reefkeeping article along with claiming to have started the acan craze with higher prices. I think it is all starting to go to his head, meaning that his ways are the only ways. Many ways to skin a cat here eric. If people are using BB,DSB, or SSB. Who cares. This debate has gone on for years and will continue. But I do have to second bomber on the DSB experts can't run a BB. ( they would actually have time to look at their tanks and enjoy them instead of maintaining them). But all in all it is the hobbiest perogative if they want to be BB,SSB or DSB. They all seem to work and as a hogbbiest you have to find what works for you. Having had a sandbed in the past and now being BB I can speak from experience that for me BB is the way to go for me.

 

[SeanT]

:lol: ok

Heeeeyyy.
Siphoning only takes 5 minutes and is done every 3 weeks.
I just had to go to the beach and get the water.

But I am back now and all done.

 

[Bomber]

Tell that to my Acro's that were dead or dying :lol: I'll send you the skeletons

5-10 nitrates did not do it.

I'm pretty sure I know where my nitrates were coming from and why I failed at BB. Things I would correct if I ever try it again

don't make us have to beat it out of you! Spill it! LOL

 

[SeanT]

My money is on dirty rocks.

 

[SCARYBO]

One thing I wish I would have tried but didn't occur to me while I was struggling... turn off my UV filter. You stated you run a UV so mine was running the whole time... I wonder if my tank was too sterile as Eric suggests after I yanked the SB. Perhaps if I'd shut it down the bacteria would have had an easier time of it? I doubt it though, SCARYBO doesn't use UV I imagine because of the ZEOvit. [/B]

That is correct. I have never used UV. My nitrate problem I feel is caused by nutrient levels. My rocks are still shedding. I never had a hair algae problem with this tank, but I think I just got lucky. The rocks must have stored a ton of nutrients. With a decent skimmer and time I believe it will come down. I havent lost any corals due to the nitrate levels, but I know it is stressful to the tank. I could have done it easiser by cooking the rocks and upgrading my skimmer. I will get where I need to be, but my advice for people considering BB, do two simple but important things.

1. Get a big skimmer. What works for a DSB will not for a BB
2. Prepare your rocks. If you have had them awhile they probably are a store house of nutrients. That will be released into your tank if you do not cook them.

 

[PUGroyale]

don't make us have to beat it out of you! Spill it! LOL

That's why I think someone should do a detailed how-to BB thread :lol:

I had insufficient water movement. Too much crap stuck under the rocks. Crap in the sump. Maybe the wrong skimmer? All things I would remedy if I went BB again ~ hard to do on the fly in an established tank.

Things I overlooked but think are really important: I would start from scratch with cooked rock, use eductors, filter bags, elevate the rock somehow off the starboard as much as possible, more effective - directed water movement, larger overflow, beckett type skimmer maybe, etc...

 

[PUGroyale]

My money is on dirty rocks.

...shrewd wager :smokin:

 

[Bomber]

The rocks must have stored a ton of nutrients.

Yep

and that's why a DSB works for so many people. It gives all that stuff from the rocks somewhere to go.

Until it fills up the DSB, skews it to anaerobic, moves the anoxic area closer to the top, and it starts leaking.

Then it's algae filters and ROWAPHOS to try and control the phophate that's leaking out.

 

[Bomber]

Too much crap stuck under the rocks. Crap in the sump.

I still don't understand why you were having nitrate problems. Do you?

 

[greenbean36191]

I think it is all starting to go to his head, meaning that his ways are the only ways.

not at all like any of the BB "experts"

if done right with proper equipment, here comes the best part I like, it should in theory will work for ever, no time bomb, ect

Aren't you still using rocks? If they trap so many nutrients that you have to cook them to get them clean then why wouldn't they trap nutrients in a BB system too?

---------------------------------------------------------------
it was all the rage back in the early 1990's
--------------------------------------------------------------

So were pumps that put out a whopping 200gph, wet/drys, air driven skimmers and a contest to see who could get the driest foam, etc etc LOL

If there is no comparison between today's BBs and those of the 90's then how come everyone who asks about the unknown long term effects of a BB is always told (usually by you) that this method has been used successfully for decades? It kind of seems like you're trying to spin things.

BB has its uses just like SSB and DSB. I like them all, and set up properly every single one of them will work for a reef tank, including one with SPS.

 

[Bomber]

not at all like any of the BB "experts"

LOL

Aren't you still using rocks? If they trap so many nutrients that you have to cook them to get them clean then why wouldn't they trap nutrients in a BB system too?

Are you familiar with gravity?

If there is no comparison between today's BBs and those of the 90's then how come everyone who asks about the unknown long term effects of a BB is always told (usually by you) that this method has been used successfully for decades? It kind of seems like you're trying to spin things.

Because it has. Do you really think maine labs have the time, every time they set up a tank, to wait months for a DSB to cycle?

BB has its uses just like SSB and DSB. I like them all, and set up properly every single one of them will work for a reef tank, including one with SPS

Of course they will, and so will a 1 gal goldfish bowl. But you should at least know what that goldfish bowl will and won't do when you set it up.

 

[SeanT]

That's why I think someone should do a detailed how-to BB thread :lol:

I am almost done.

 

[FastFish720]

I'm excited!

 

[greenbean36191]

Are you familiar with gravity?

So that's the secret to BB tanks? They are immune to gravity? Why can't you ever seem to give a straight answer to a serious question?

Because it has. Do you really think maine labs have the time, every time they set up a tank, to wait months for a DSB to cycle?

I'm well aware that tanks without substrate have been used for decades, but by your own admission they are not comparable to todays barebottom systems. I also don't think that research tanks that are constantly being reconfigured for different experiments and livestock really show the long term effects you would run into in a reef tank.

So which way is it? Has a comparable version of today's BB system been used for decades as you assert or is today's version a modified version of an old method, one that had its own problems?

 

[FastFish720]

Oh since we all no a list of do's, maybe a list of do not's would be useful. Like Do have high, but controlled water flow....Do not add sand. Do skim wet...Do not have a refugium

 

[redwinger02]

Never claimed to be an expert, just don't like all the negatives that seem to come from Mr. Bornerman. And as I stated there is nothing wrong with running a DSB or SSB if it works for you great! Just don't get upset with us when we try something a little unorthodox and are succesful with it. I very much like the look of sand vs BB however I like the fact that my tank has less maint. then before and my corals seem to be doing much better. Some have been very succesful with DSB and I think that is great it is what works fro them and you should do what works for you.

 

[Bomber]

So that's the secret to BB tanks? They are immune to gravity? Why can't you ever seem to give a straight answer to a serious question?

Because some questions just don't warrant a straight answer. Especially when they start out with a slam.

Has a comparable version of today's BB system been used for decades as you assert or is today's version a modified version of an old method, one that had its own problems?

What problems? The hobby has always had problems and probably always will.

Of course they are. Some have concrete floors and siphon as needed, some have circulation and skimming that remove it as needed.

There's no difference, either one just gets it out of there.

So tell me, how do you run a waste processing plant in a aquarium?

 

[greenbean36191]

Ah, I'm so sorry. Next time I should be more respectful to you while you educate me in the mysteries of gravity.